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Thread: Explosion

  1. #1
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    Explosion

    So, if you're standing in the middle of a building and everyone around you keeps falling down, catching on fire (or getting fired), but you seem perfectly safe, what are you?

    Answer: Mike Shanahan

    Come on people, regardless of how you feel, this series of events further demonstrates Shanahan's failings. Good leaders make their people look good. Bad managers pass the blame. These aren't football truths, they're universal.

    I have been a fan of Mikey-ball for every one of the past 12 seasons, but there is a disconnect somewhere, and where there's smoke there's fire...it just always somehow skirts right around the coach, which makes ME think HE'S THE FIRE!

    Anyway, that's my take...for better or worse...Go Broncos!!

  2. #2
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    The problem with your criticism is that Shanny is in charge of making the team better and yet he's just doing his job trying to fix the areas he thinks are problems. Is he supposed to just sit on his hands despite a couple of missed playoffs in a row or should he look for problems and try to fix them? Sure, if HE'S the problem then the only one who can fix it is Pat Bowlen but since that isn't going to happen it's up to Shanahan to do what he thinks will help improve the team.

    If this is about Sundquist, we don't know what happened behind closed doors. For all we know, Ted said he was tired of not having the final say on personnel matters and Shanny told him he'd never get that power in Denver and so they agreed to part ways.

    Anyway, it's way too early to tell if this was a good move or not so let's see what happens over the next few years.
    "You can't take the sky from me..."
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  3. #3
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    I agree

    Jav,

    Shanny is doing what he thinks is best for the team. I don't disagree at all. In fact, that is very much in line with what I'm trying to say.

    Everyone can see that the Broncos have problems right now. Shanny sees it and does what he believe will fix them. It makes sense to think that Shanny can't fix this problem because he IS the problem. When looking out, it's hard to see yourself.

    There is potential for Shanny to return to great coaching, but I think odds are better that the team will continue to implode until Bowlen realizes he can no longer trust his coach and moves in a different direction.

    Our record last season was obismal, but it was bad. The way we lost some of the games we played showed coaching problems. No matter who Shanny has fired, bad coaching starts with him.

  4. #4
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    I think the Broncos are going in the right direction. I am more attached to alot of the players than I am to Shanny, yet I have seen many of them come and go......In the end I am still a broncos fan. If we lost Shanny then I wouldn't be happy or sad.....I'd just want to see who we would get to replace him before I argued weather or not it was right for the team.

    Is firing the GM the right move? We will have to let it play out.

  5. #5
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    Shanny has only made a handfull of bad calls in the past several years.

    1) Running Portis on the 20yd line (20 yards to goaline) in Overtime when we could have kicked a field goal. Portis hurt his knee, and we immediatley kicked the field goal. (I said past several years)

    2) Quarterbacks as place kick holders. Parcells did this to Romo, and lost his job as a result. This last season I saw Cutler holding! Learn from Romo, don't put a QB in that posistion.

    3) Using a draft pick for Maurice Clarett

    4) Cutting Javon Walker. I'm not sure if this is Shannahan directly, but wouldn't it have been better to pay $7 Million promised and trade Walker? We got Champ Bailey for Portis when we only had Portis under contract for 1 more year. We could have easily traded Walker.

    5) Starting Cutler when the Broncos were heading to the playoffs. It may have been the right move, but if my team is heading to the playoffs I'd think more about winning at the time. I remember when they interviewed Cutler when the announcement was made. Reporter: "How has the team reacted to this move?" Cutler: "Uhm, no one on the team has talked to me"

    5 bad moves in what? 15 years? Not too bad.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteyford View Post
    2) Quarterbacks as place kick holders. Parcells did this to Romo, and lost his job as a result. This last season I saw Cutler holding! Learn from Romo, don't put a QB in that posistion.

    3) Using a draft pick for Maurice Clarett

    4) Cutting Javon Walker. I'm not sure if this is Shannahan directly, but wouldn't it have been better to pay $7 Million promised and trade Walker? We got Champ Bailey for Portis when we only had Portis under contract for 1 more year. We could have easily traded Walker.

    5) Starting Cutler when the Broncos were heading to the playoffs. It may have been the right move, but if my team is heading to the playoffs I'd think more about winning at the time. I remember when they interviewed Cutler when the announcement was made. Reporter: "How has the team reacted to this move?" Cutler: "Uhm, no one on the team has talked to me"
    I actually have to disagree with these, and I'm sure there are many more that could be listed.

    2) QBs are commonly used as place holders. Like it was mentioned, Plummer did it all the time. Plus, Parcells didn't lose his job because Romo fumbled. Romo was the placeholder all season long, why would you not put your normal holder in during the playoffs? Parcells retired.

    3) Clarett wasn't that bad of a pick. It didn't turn out, but BIll Parcells (who is regarded as a very good drafter) said that he was going to draft him with his next pick in the fourth. We didn't have a fourth. It was a risky pick, granted. But sometimes risk pays off.

    4) There is NO WAY we could have given Walker the bonus money and then just traded him away. What kind of value do you think we would have gotten that would have justified that additional 5 million going out the door?

    5) I personally didn't mind starting Cutler those last few games. He didn't lose them for us. Our scoring went UP during those 5 games that he started. Plummer was playing terrible that season.. and no one can convince me that Plummer would have 'won' any games with the way he was playing. Not to mention our season was going nowhere. Just getting "to" the playoffs is not the team's goal.

    I honestly don't think these are any of the mistakes that most would list as reasons to get rid of Shanahan. Most have to do with the draft and FA.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteyford View Post
    4) Oakland would have traded for him. Javon was unhappy in Denver, we pay his money, he's under contract but clearly wants out. What happens next? The team offer a trade pick or player for him. Lelie wanted out of Denver too, we got something for him. We cut a $55 million dollar receiver is all I'm saying.
    If Oakland would have traded for him then they would have. You think Shanny said, "No, I'd rather cut Walker than trade him to the hated Raiders!" Hell, no. The fact is, everyone knew we were going to cut him and nobody was willing to fork over anything for him.

    If the Broncos really didn't have faith in Walker's knee then they did the right thing getting rid of him. Since none of us saw his medical reports, we can't really say if this was the right call or not.

    2) Plummer held, and if I'm not mistaken Elam missed a couple field goals as a result. One missed field goal in Buffalo made the game way closer than it should have. I never liked putting a QB there, I know there is trick play potential, but the QB has enough to do, let a special team player handle the holds.
    So, you're blaming Elam's missed kicks on Plummer? It seems to me the sometimes even the best kickers miss field goals all on their own.

    As it happens, Plummer was a really good holder. We had a lot of problems when Tom Rouen was cut and our intermediate placeholders not gained chemistry with Elam. But when Plummer eventually took over things got much better.

    There's no reason Cutler can't do the job. At least we know he'll be here for a long time and we won't have to keep changing placeholders.
    "You can't take the sky from me..."
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  8. #8
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    then we agree to disagree (me vs everyone)

    Plummer bobbled the hold a couple times, or he took too long and threw Elam's timing off on the missed field goals I was talking about.

    My opinions on QB being a bad place kick holder stem from Plummer messing up 2 field goals over a year ago, and Romo fumbling the game winning field goal in the playoffs. I think no good can come from this. Very obscure example: a jubilant special teams player dives to block the FG and lands on Cutler's throwing hand and breaks it.

    Leave that posistion for ANYONE but our starting QB. Putting Cutler in that posistion was about as stupid as when Plummer over-the-shoulder threw it to Elam in a trick play and Elam got freaking nailed! I figured it was comon sense Elam should not be running the ball in any situation, but maybe I'm the only one who thinks like this.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteyford View Post
    4) Lelie wanted out of Denver too, we got something for him.

    2) Plummer held, and if I'm not mistaken Elam missed a couple field goals as a result.
    4) Lelie didn't have a bionic knee

    2) how did Plummer cause him to miss? that doesn't make sense. the ball was always placed as best as it could. Elam said so himself

  10. #10
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    This reminds me of Ace Ventura....

    "LACES OUT DAN!!!"

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteyford View Post
    Shanny has only made a handfull of bad calls in the past several years.

    1) Running Portis on the 20yd line (20 yards to goaline) in Overtime when we could have kicked a field goal. Portis hurt his knee, and we immediatley kicked the field goal. (I said past several years)

    2) Quarterbacks as place kick holders. Parcells did this to Romo, and lost his job as a result. This last season I saw Cutler holding! Learn from Romo, don't put a QB in that posistion.

    3) Using a draft pick for Maurice Clarett

    4) Cutting Javon Walker. I'm not sure if this is Shannahan directly, but wouldn't it have been better to pay $7 Million promised and trade Walker? We got Champ Bailey for Portis when we only had Portis under contract for 1 more year. We could have easily traded Walker.

    5) Starting Cutler when the Broncos were heading to the playoffs. It may have been the right move, but if my team is heading to the playoffs I'd think more about winning at the time. I remember when they interviewed Cutler when the announcement was made. Reporter: "How has the team reacted to this move?" Cutler: "Uhm, no one on the team has talked to me"

    5 bad moves in what? 15 years? Not too bad.
    With all due respect, I think you are oversimplifying this situation. Unless you are in all the board meetings, scouting sessions, player discussions, etc., not sure how you can come away with only five. Further, (once again, assuming he had some say in personnel) not sure his offseason moves last year were saluted by the experts. Moss is still a "?", considering we traded up for him (I know, they said they had to), Thomas was debatable (although I like his athletic potential), Graham needs to add something other than blocking, and maybe he should have done more homework on Henry's off field activity. Did he have anything to do with the Bates situation? I don't know all the details, but I think you are being too kind to Shanny. Heck, he can take it. He's tough.

    Just saying, I can't imagine minimizing his mistakes to five....

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dare2bme View Post
    So, if you're standing in the middle of a building and everyone around you keeps falling down, catching on fire (or getting fired), but you seem perfectly safe, what are you?

    Answer: Mike Shanahan

    Come on people, regardless of how you feel, this series of events further demonstrates Shanahan's failings. Good leaders make their people look good. Bad managers pass the blame. These aren't football truths, they're universal.

    I have been a fan of Mikey-ball for every one of the past 12 seasons, but there is a disconnect somewhere, and where there's smoke there's fire...it just always somehow skirts right around the coach, which makes ME think HE'S THE FIRE!

    Anyway, that's my take...for better or worse...Go Broncos!!
    I do see your side of the story. I am a bit concerned. Give Shanny 08 to make amends, or cut the cord. By the way, NP is very cute...

  13. #13
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    OK, here's what the media tells me.

    -Ted Sundquist's GM accomplishments: "Denver reached the playoffs three times under Sundquist's watch, including an appearance in the AFC championship game against Pittsburgh following the 2005 season.

    Sundquist, 45, supervised pro and college scouting and was responsible for salary cap and contract analysis.

    In his role as general manager, Sundquist helped Denver land free agents such as John Lynch, Daniel Graham and Travis Henry. He also made a trade with the Washington Redskins to acquire Champ Bailey and the Detroit Lions to obtain Dre' Bly.

    Sundquist also facilitated a draft-day deal with St. Louis in 2006, allowing Denver to trade up four spots to take Vanderbilt quarterback Jay Cutler with the 11th overall pick." (ESPN)

    -Mike Shanahan's GM accomplishments: " Shanahan The GM has made the job much more difficult for Shanahan The Coach. (Note: Ted Sundquist holds the "general manager" title but reports to Shanahan, who makes all personnel decisions.)

    Free agency, for example, has been a nightmare for Shanahan The GM. Defensive back Dale Carter, signed in 1999 while in the substance-abuse program, was suspended for a full year in 2000. Shanahan signed defensive tackle Daryl Gardener in 2003, giving him a big-money deal for which he never provided anything in return. Running back Travis Henry, who came to Denver one whiff of a doobie away from a one-year suspension, was Shanahan's prize offseason acquisition this year but has tested positive for marijuana and is awaiting an appeal hearing before a suspension kicks in.

    Henry isn't the only high-priced mistake made within the past year. Shanahan broke the bank for tight end Daniel Graham, who is averaging a whopping two catches per game and hasn't scored a touchdown. And then there was defensive end Simeon Rice, who was supposed to pump up the pass rush but has spent most of his time complaining about his lack of playing time.

    Shanahan The GM hasn't fared much better in the trade department. A second-round pick was sent to Green Bay for receiver Javon Walker, who was solid in '06 after tearing up his knee the prior year but now is having more trouble with the old injury. This year, cornerback Dre' Bly was obtained in exchange for two guys (running back Tatum Bell, offensive tackle George Foster) no longer in the team's plans, but Shanahan then paid too much money to lock up Bly beyond this season.

    And who can forget Shanahan The GM's effort to round up as many washed-up Browns' defensive linemen as possible?

    Then there's the draft. Shanahan The GM's high-profile mistakes include burning a first-round pick on wide receiver Marcus Nash in 1998, a first-rounder on cornerback Deltha O'Neal in 2000, a first-rounder on cornerback Willie Middlebrooks in 2001, a second-rounder on defensive end Paul Toviessi in 2001, a first-rounder on receiver Ashley Lelie in 2002, a first-rounder on Foster in 2003, a second-rounder on linebacker Terry Pierce in 2003, a second-rounder on receiver Darius Watts in 2004 and (drum roll, please) a third-rounder on running back Maurice Clarett in 2005. " (SportingNews)

    --What I get out of these two articles, and others, is that Sundquist makes all the good moves, Shanahan makes all the bad ones, and Sundquist is the scapegoat for Shanahan's quest for ultimate power. I know Shanahan has a say in the decisions, but I really don't think he's brushing off everyone else's work, and doing most of the personnel things himself! Otherwise, I guess they like to pay a lot of people to hang around with titles just to make it look like Shanahan's not in charge... I say the media's over-dramatic and just likes to take the facts and line them up in a way to sound more entertaining. That's just me though

  14. #14
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    is it fair to say that if Shanny doesn't win 9 or 10 games this season he's out?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteyford View Post
    is it fair to say that if Shanny doesn't win 9 or 10 games this season he's out?
    Mmmm.. depends on how they play. Depends on the injuries. I mean.. if Cutler goes down in week one, and we don't win 9 games, is that Shanahan's fault? I don't necessarily believe their is just a numeric number on that. I think it comes down to play on the field... improvement, and things moving in the right direction for sure.

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