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  1. #16
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    Look, I do agree that Slowik sucks, but you're going to far to discredit him if you think that Woodyard/Larsen should start at all, much less over DJ Williams.

    Woodyard and Larsen are nice players, but they are backup's/STer's on a contenders defense. Woodyard is tiny! Larsen is Ssssssssslllllllllloooooooowwwwwww! They have flaws that teams will exploit.

    Denver has Williams, Thomas and Bailey, and that's it.......Pittsburgh has been coaching and drafting for the same damn system for about two decades, you simply can't compare the two.......
    Last edited by stnzed; 12-22-2008 at 06:48 PM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by stnzed View Post
    Look, I do agree that Slowik sucks, but you're going to far to discredit him if you think that Woodyard/Larsen should start at all, much less over DJ Williams.

    Woodyard and Larsen are nice players, but they are backup's/STer's on a contenders defense. Woodyard is tiny! Larsen is Ssssssssslllllllllloooooooowwwwwww! They have flaws that teams will exploit.

    Denver has Williams, Thomas and Bailey, and that's it.......Pittsburgh has been coaching and drafting for the same damn system for about two decades, you simply can't compare the two.......
    By no means am I comparing Denver to Pittsburgh. So we will end that idea right there. I was simply highlighting the fact that the league's best D's dont break the bank on multiple 1st rounders, Baltimore included.

    On Woodyard and Larsen I disagree to a point. When they played they managed better stats and shut down the run against Michael Turner, Jerious Norwood, and Thomas Jones to a degree. Our best stretch came with them playing. If Webster and Williams are so much better how come it doesn't show when they play? Champ was our leading tackler yesterday!

    I am not saying Woodyard and Larsen are the longterm answer. I am saying they are the best we have right now and the numbers from when they played show it.

    Finally, I like DJ but I do seem to see some pretty big errors and poor football smarts at times on his part. He was the one who was supposed to guard the screen against Miami on 3rd and 21 or whatever and screwed the pooch!

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhildebrand View Post
    By no means am I comparing Denver to Pittsburgh. So we will end that idea right there. I was simply highlighting the fact that the league's best D's dont break the bank on multiple 1st rounders, Baltimore included.

    On Woodyard and Larsen I disagree to a point. When they played they managed better stats and shut down the run against Michael Turner, Jerious Norwood, and Thomas Jones to a degree. Our best stretch came with them playing. If Webster and Williams are so much better how come it doesn't show when they play? Champ was our leading tackler yesterday!

    I am not saying Woodyard and Larsen are the longterm answer. I am saying they are the best we have right now and the numbers from when they played show it.

    Finally, I like DJ but I do seem to see some pretty big errors and poor football smarts at times on his part. He was the one who was supposed to guard the screen against Miami on 3rd and 21 or whatever and screwed the pooch!
    Webster sucks but Williams is coming off a knee injury, if you want to use tackles as the measure of ability than only one player in the league had more ability than Williams before he went down.

    Williams was the second leading tackler in the entire league before he went down, and although I think we can agree that Williams is not the second best LB in the league, the 16 tackle/half sack game he had is by far the best performance by a Bronco LB this season and should at least afford him the benefit of the doubt for his play since coming back.

    And if the 4 rushing TD's that Jones/Turner had is shutting them down, what is it that Pittsburgh is doing to RB's? The Broncos defense had merely shown signs of a pulse during that stretch, that's it, it was hardly what I'd call an improvement.

    That's about all I'm going to say on the subject, I've had enough whiny hate mail, but Williams starts because he is the better player even if the stats say otherwise.......nothing Woodyard has done could justify starting him over Williams.......

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justblaze2729 View Post
    what i saw yesterday is a good defense for the first 2 drives and it reminded me of larry coyers D in 05 but for some reason as its been all season long we reverted to trying not to lose a game instead of grabbing the bills by their throats and crushing them
    that is the slowick scheme...play hard , get a lead..then revert to the slow defense...which is short for..slow them down long enough for the offense to catch their breath before letting them score

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by stnzed View Post
    Webster sucks but Williams is coming off a knee injury, if you want to use tackles as the measure of ability than only one player in the league had more ability than Williams before he went down.

    Williams was the second leading tackler in the entire league before he went down, and although I think we can agree that Williams is not the second best LB in the league, the 16 tackle/half sack game he had is by far the best performance by a Bronco LB this season and should at least afford him the benefit of the doubt for his play since coming back.

    And if the 4 rushing TD's that Jones/Turner had is shutting them down, what is it that Pittsburgh is doing to RB's? The Broncos defense had merely shown signs of a pulse during that stretch, that's it, it was hardly what I'd call an improvement.

    That's about all I'm going to say on the subject, I've had enough whiny hate mail, but Williams starts because he is the better player even if the stats say otherwise.......nothing Woodyard has done could justify starting him over Williams.......
    You bring up some good points, STNZED. I completely concede on DJ Williams. There is nothing else I can counter that with. Touche.

    I defended Webster most of the year. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. It doesn't even matter really seeing how Larsen is injured as well.

    Shanahan promised a team that would stop at nothing to stop the run, he promised a team in the playoffs and one that would do damage. I hope he knows something about next week that we dont

    By the way, the Jones/Turner TD's were far more a result of field position (save the long Jones run) than the D themselves. Look no further than Fred Jackson or whatever his name was gashing this D!

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhildebrand View Post
    You bring up some good points, STNZED. I completely concede on DJ Williams. There is nothing else I can counter that with. Touche.

    I defended Webster most of the year. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. It doesn't even matter really seeing how Larsen is injured as well.

    Shanahan promised a team that would stop at nothing to stop the run, he promised a team in the playoffs and one that would do damage. I hope he knows something about next week that we dont

    By the way, the Jones/Turner TD's were far more a result of field position (save the long Jones run) than the D themselves. Look no further than Fred Jackson or whatever his name was gashing this D!
    Actually, at this point I'd like to concede on Larsen, when he's healthy I think he's a better player than Webster, from what little I've seen of him.

    Fred Jackson's TD gashed this defense on the strong side, IIRC, all the LB's over pursued along with Vernon Fox, and Josh Bell looked like he was looking for a lost contact instead of tackling. Jackson's long reception was just a perfect throw beating pretty good coverage by Winborn.

    Ironic that Winborn's best game came after he toned the nonsense down and will be marred by one play that he actually had covered pretty well.......

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by stnzed View Post
    Actually, at this point I'd like to concede on Larsen, when he's healthy I think he's a better player than Webster, from what little I've seen of him.

    Fred Jackson's TD gashed this defense on the strong side, IIRC, all the LB's over pursued along with Vernon Fox, and Josh Bell looked like he was looking for a lost contact instead of tackling. Jackson's long reception was just a perfect throw beating pretty good coverage by Winborn.

    Ironic that Winborn's best game came after he toned the nonsense down and will be marred by one play that he actually had covered pretty well.......
    Winborn in one series was the entire D. He stopped every play and forced the 3 and out. Unfortuately, the Fred Jackson pass does hurt. He needed to turn up field sooner. He just back peddled too long. He is young and will get better.

    As for Webster. At times the guy has it. But those times are few and far between. I also like Larsen and Woodyard because they make the tackle at contact. You see Webster get dragged pretty good at times.

    I know Larsen is a bit undersized. It cannot be the death knell, though. If Z Thomas can play in this league at his height, and Dat Nguyen for that matter, than so can Larsen.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhildebrand View Post
    Try reading the Slowik thread. Furthermore, the assumption was never made that 1st round draft ='s success. Just look at Jarvis Moss.

    The Slowik supporters have argued this team isn't talented enough on D and the team hasn't invested enough draft picks on D. The thread clearly shows that the top D's in the league get the most out of their players i.e. Pittsburgh.
    That's not true. I'm not a Slowik supporter but I am sure we don't have the talent on Defense to do what we want/need to do.

    When we first got Bates, we blew up our defense entirely to try to match the physical requirements of his scheme. We got rid of some good players who had done well for us and we brought in tons of over-the-hill beef.

    We were terrible.

    By midway through the season we backed out of Bates' scheme and instead tried to go back to what we had before but we no longer had the personnel to do well with it.

    Now we are in the process of continuing to try to rebuild a defense that was trashed in a half-***ed attempt to implement Bates' scheme.

    At this point it appears that our 2007 draft was a failure. Jarvis Moss may be a decent linebacker in the 3-4 but he's likely never going to be a quality pass rushing DE in the NFL.

    I don't know how much Slowik is to blame but I can say with assurance that the Broncos right now do NOT have the talent to field a winning defense. And until we have the talent, I'm loathe to fire yet another D-Coordinator and start all over again from scratch trying to find a solution to the defensive problem. When you get another D-coordinator you may have to start getting new guys for a new scheme all over again. We need, IMO, some continuity to build our defense back up after trashing it in the ill-conceived Bates experiment.
    You Tell 'em Justice is coming. You tell 'em I'M coming!

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue719 View Post
    That's not true. I'm not a Slowik supporter but I am sure we don't have the talent on Defense to do what we want/need to do.

    When we first got Bates, we blew up our defense entirely to try to match the physical requirements of his scheme. We got rid of some good players who had done well for us and we brought in tons of over-the-hill beef.

    We were terrible.

    By midway through the season we backed out of Bates' scheme and instead tried to go back to what we had before but we no longer had the personnel to do well with it.

    Now we are in the process of continuing to try to rebuild a defense that was trashed in a half-***ed attempt to implement Bates' scheme.

    At this point it appears that our 2007 draft was a failure. Jarvis Moss may be a decent linebacker in the 3-4 but he's likely never going to be a quality pass rushing DE in the NFL.

    I don't know how much Slowik is to blame but I can say with assurance that the Broncos right now do NOT have the talent to field a winning defense. And until we have the talent, I'm loathe to fire yet another D-Coordinator and start all over again from scratch trying to find a solution to the defensive problem. When you get another D-coordinator you may have to start getting new guys for a new scheme all over again. We need, IMO, some continuity to build our defense back up after trashing it in the ill-conceived Bates experiment.
    Rogue you bring up good points. We lost a good G Warren because of switching to Bates. However, we do not know the true talent on this Defense because Slowik is too tepid in his game plans. This unit looked fine yesterday under Slowik applying pressure. Then for no reason what so ever we went back to rushing only 4.

    Furthermore, Shanahan fired Coyer for much less not to mention Bates. Coyer had a top 10 scoring defense every season he was in charge of our D.

    Slowik was supposed to represent the best of Bates and Coyer. He has shown nothing. He has been in charge of this unit since the bye week last season and the team has regressed in every possible statistic. His resume has nothing that points to reasons for optimism. When he took over on D in GB they did have talent. Look where that ended up.

    I believe in consistency but you have to have the right guy. If we keep Slowik we will be consistently bad IMHO. Plenty of coordinators step in to similar situations and improve units immediately. Not everybody has the Giants/Titans/Steelers/Jags lines but they still get pressure.

  10. #25
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    The OP makes the foolish assumption that 1st round draft picks = talent. Flat out incorrect. I don't like slowik (though I think he hasn't had a fair chance yet) but we flat out lack the players at many positions

    Both Safeties
    One of our DE's
    Mike (unless we move D.J. over)
    Sam
    Nickleback
    And DT's that can collpase the pocket

    On Slowik I don't think he's the answer. But I don't think we can know. He lost his two best players for a long time, at one point had all three starting LB's injured, and had the talent deficit mentioned above. It takes time to implement a new defense, with a healthy team that will know his system next year we can actually make a judgement.
    Get well soon Peyton, Denver loves and saltues you :salute!:

    Thanks for the memories Mike. Good luck, you will be missed. :salute!:

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by getlynched47 View Post
    I was AMAZED the first two defensive series for the Broncos....and then it all went downhill from there
    Agreed.



    I've tried my best to support Slowik all yea and wanted to give him a pass on his first year, but lets face it, the guy doesnt exactly have the track record to have earned another year. The defense has been pretty bad in more then a few instances this year and I just dont know if I can be on board with keeping him around. On one had, I want some consistency so this defense can get the right players as we've talked about to run this scheme, but on the other hand, Im finding it harder and harder to believe this defense can actually work. We'll see, but I think we'll need Ray Lewis, Namndi, Haynesworth, and Peppers to improve it.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhildebrand View Post
    Rogue you bring up good points. We lost a good G Warren because of switching to Bates. However, we do not know the true talent on this Defense because Slowik is too tepid in his game plans. This unit looked fine yesterday under Slowik applying pressure. Then for no reason what so ever we went back to rushing only 4.

    Furthermore, Shanahan fired Coyer for much less not to mention Bates. Coyer had a top 10 scoring defense every season he was in charge of our D.

    Slowik was supposed to represent the best of Bates and Coyer. He has shown nothing. He has been in charge of this unit since the bye week last season and the team has regressed in every possible statistic. His resume has nothing that points to reasons for optimism. When he took over on D in GB they did have talent. Look where that ended up.

    I believe in consistency but you have to have the right guy. If we keep Slowik we will be consistently bad IMHO. Plenty of coordinators step in to similar situations and improve units immediately. Not everybody has the Giants/Titans/Steelers/Jags lines but they still get pressure.
    Coyer became the scapegoat for lack of a pass rush following the AFCCG we lost to Pittsburgh and was let go, in spite of the fact that we were a top ten defense that year.

    To be fair, Coyer also likely advised Shanahan that Trevor Pryce probably wasn't worth his very high salary the next year as a pass rusher based on stats that showed his sack count was low. One of the primary reasons that sack total was so low was that under Coyer's scheme, the D-Line locked up the O-line and held it in place while the LB's flew around to the ball. This enabled them to try to block the middle up front to stop the run, but it also meant that often our D-line wasn't attempting to penetrate to get to the QB.

    We then hired Bates who had a reputation for building solid pass rushing defenses. His plan, it turns out, was very similar, but he used much larger, beefier guys in the middle to help block up the line and run and all the LB's to be free to chase down the passers. We trashed our defensive personnel trying to make it work but our new hires also didn't really fit the scheme very well and we were then stuck with a scheme we didn't like and a bunch of personnel that not only didn't fit Bate's scheme very well, but also didn't fit our new scheme very well.

    On top of that, once you hire a new Coordinator, you essentially start over yet again and now have to start looking for the personnel that will match that person's scheme.

    Here are my thoughts. Unless you can get a Rex Ryan (known commodity - and remember that Bates was also a known commodity and had turned around defenses in Miami and GB) to come in here, and the be prepared to have a crappy defense for another 2-3 years while we concentrate our drafts and FA efforts to building a quality defense, you might as well give Slowik the chance to build his defense by concentrating our efforts with him.

    His players believe in him and his scheme is very, very similar to Coyer's and can pay dividends if we get the personnel we need to run it.

    (To recap:
    Coyer: Top Ten defense that stopped the run but couldn't pressure the passer.
    Bates: Crappy defense that neither stopped the run nor pressured the passer, but we fired him rather than making a commitment to him and his scheme to get the necessary personnel over time - our goal is to win now. We also trashed our existing defense trying to build what Bates needed.)
    Slowik: Former GB D-coordinator who had mixed success but has had a chance to learn both from Bates and Coyer since. His players believe in him, say he understands defense and explains the plans, plays and schemes so they are easy to understand. If his players understand what they are supposed to do and where they are supposed to be, then the problem may not be Slowik but the execution of the people on the field. Slowik is working with a patchwork personnel group, some good, some not so good.

    We had a mixed draft in 2007 - Marcus Thomas appears the only real starter material for our defense. On the other hand, we seemed to have a decent draft in 2008, and Shanny is showing that the problem with our drafts may not necessarily have been him. Only time and more drafts will tell if thats the case or not.

    New Defensive coordinator (3 in three years) means we again start over from scratch, re-look our personnel versus new schemes and probably take another 2-3 years minimum to getting our defense back to a top ten quality.

    I say that before we throw the baby out with the bathwater, let's keep a decent scheme for a while and see if we can't instead get the personnel that can execute that scheme.
    You Tell 'em Justice is coming. You tell 'em I'M coming!

  13. #28
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    I think your missing the mark with the evaluation of Coyer. It wasnt because we didnt get pressure, we got tons of it. Even against Pittsburgh the defense played well, but the offense turned the ball over 5 times (sound familiar?lol). Either way, Coyer was let go because he couldnt beat the Colts. Twice in the WC round, then again at home in the regular season in 2006. We lead that game 14-6 at the half only to lose it 34-31 if i recall correctly. Coyers defense was great when we were healthy, but they couldnt beat the Colts, and Shanny felt if we couldnt stop Peyton and Co. we'd never get there, and that was true. The Colts went on to win the Superbowl that year and had we made it would have played them and most likely got snuffed.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Joe View Post
    I think your missing the mark with the evaluation of Coyer. It wasnt because we didnt get pressure, we got tons of it. Even against Pittsburgh the defense played well, but the offense turned the ball over 5 times (sound familiar?lol).
    Sorry, Joe, but I don't agree. We lived by the blitz and got no pressure when we weren't blitzing. Pittsburgh always saw our blitz coming and it was ineffective. Our secondary laid off the receivers (particularly Foxworth) and Roethlisberger picked our secondary apart. If our defense played well, how did the Pittsburgh offense score nearly every time they touched the ball in the first half?

    We did turn the ball over a lot, but most of it came in the second half when Jake, desperate to score quick because we were so far behind, insisted on not checking down his receivers and going for the first option, who was mostly covered.



    Either way, Coyer was let go because he couldnt beat the Colts. Twice in the WC round, then again at home in the regular season in 2006. We lead that game 14-6 at the half only to lose it 34-31 if i recall correctly. Coyers defense was great when we were healthy, but they couldnt beat the Colts, and Shanny felt if we couldnt stop Peyton and Co. we'd never get there, and that was true.
    After we lost to Pittsburgh in the AFCCG, Coyer was told that he could no longer live and die by the blitz but must get pressure from his front four. All that season he attempted to get pressure from his defensive line and was unable to and he was let go. Indianapolis was only a small part of the overall problem. We could only get pressure from a blitz package (sound familiar?) and good quarterbacks can beat the blitz. We weren't going to the next level without fixing that, and Coyer couldn't fix that with the personnel he had. A case could likely be made that Shanahan was concentrating too much on building his offense and didn't give the D-Coord what he needed to build that kind of defensive line, but Coyer became the symbol for the failure of our defense.
    You Tell 'em Justice is coming. You tell 'em I'M coming!

  15. #30
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    It's not the Scheme!

    When your "D" has had 3 different coaches and get the same results 3 times it's the players. Coordinaters can't takle for you, catch ints., line up right for you. It's the players and lack of talent. We need bigger "D" ends and tough guy's in the middle of that "D"-line. Look at Pittsburg, Dallas, Bears there DE's get to the passer and mess-up the run game.

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