Orton / Cutler trade

[NYJets 4 Life]

it's cool to see guys like orton mccown and campbell acting like quality human beings in all of this, unlike some qbs

What do they all have in common?

[Hadez]

Great article. Loved allot of the points about it. Definately a thinking man's article.

Very interesting about McD thinking he can win with Orton. I have personally loved what I have herd about Orton since the trade. Only negative thing I have herd is his arm is allot like Chad Pennington but after watching some video I think he has a much better arm then that.

Also like to hear Orton is elusive in the pocket. While people talk up our o-line allot I think they tend to forget how much Cutler's elusive abilities help make the o-line look good when it failed to block rushers.

In Cutler's case, pride.

In Bowlen's case, who signs the checks.

If my boss calls, writes, or emails me, or sends a messenger, he's going to get a response.

Or he stops signing my checks.

-----

No idea why people compare Cutler to themselves.

Maybe 12 people in the world can do what Cutler does.

If my boss fires me he can replace me with allot more then 12 people.

I am saying a smart buisnessmen knows the supply and demand and does not allow his personal feelings to hurt their buisness.

If Bowlen dumped Cutler because he felt it was a message he needed to send to the team fine I can accept that.

If Bowlen dumped Cutler because Cutler did not return his calls and his pride was hurt well then that is a horrible owner.

[elecshoc]

If Bowlen dumped Cutler because he felt it was a message he needed to send to the team fine I can accept that.

If Bowlen dumped Cutler because Cutler did not return his calls and his pride was hurt well then that is a horrible owner.

I tend to believe it's your first suggestion. I think the message was sent loud and clear to the team, then to the fans stating "It has never been about one player, and it never will be."

[broncoboy719]

it doesn't matter who lied first or last or most. the reason this all broke down is McD wouldn't say that Cutler was untradeable. I believe that Cutler was not going to be the broncos future, he was going to be the guy until the new qb was groomed, probably a later round draft choice. The offense needed work, we moved the ball, so what we couldn't score. Had McD wanted Cassel so bad we would have traded for him and dealt Cutler later we wouldn't have had to involve a third team to get him. Denver has been lucky that we rarely have had players holdout or become problems and that was because Shanny got rid of them as soon as they started going to the press(walker) or when he knew there would be a problem (portis). Had Shanny still been here and Cutler demanded a bigger contract (reason for going with cook as his agent) Shanny would have shipped him out then and there wouldn't be all this hatred going on. Could this mess have been handle better, yes by all side but we did pretty good and could do great if we pickup good starters in the draft.

[premier-ace55]

Great article. Loved allot of the points about it. Definately a thinking man's article.

Very interesting about McD thinking he can win with Orton. I have personally loved what I have herd about Orton since the trade. Only negative thing I have herd is his arm is allot like Chad Pennington but after watching some video I think he has a much better arm then that.

Also like to hear Orton is elusive in the pocket. While people talk up our o-line allot I think they tend to forget how much Cutler's elusive abilities help make the o-line look good when it failed to block rushers.



No idea why people compare Cutler to themselves.

Maybe 12 people in the world can do what Cutler does.

If my boss fires me he can replace me with allot more then 12 people.

I am saying a smart buisnessmen knows the supply and demand and does not allow his personal feelings to hurt their buisness.

If Bowlen dumped Cutler because he felt it was a message he needed to send to the team fine I can accept that.

If Bowlen dumped Cutler because Cutler did not return his calls and his pride was hurt well then that is a horrible owner.

There are more people 12 that have a losing record. That aside i agree he has plenty of skills that seperate him from several people in the league however I just don't think that Jay wanted to come back i mean i don't even think that he brought his playbook with him to nashville when he skipped offseason workouts.

[NYJets 4 Life]

Where is the article that Mcd informed Cutler that he was being dealt for Cassell before NFL network reported it? I would like to read that because when this all first came about even McD did not want to admit he tried to shop Cutler. I think even until after the press conference most media was reporting still that it was the Broncos brass that started all this. Cutler just let it linger to the final act.

Also I thought it was quite classy of McD to show up like he just got back from a jog for probably the biggest press conference of his coaching career.

McD officially has never won a super bowl or has proven he could win one. He called plays for NE in 05. He did not get promoted to OC until 06.

For some reason everyone calls it McD system. Didn't he learn it from Charlie Weiss?
So shouldn't it be Weiss's system? At least with Shanny it was just a hyrbid of the West Coast offense so it is his system. McD brings the same exact offense they have had in NE since 2001 under Weiss as the OC.

Don't mind silk, he's so firmly against agaisnt Cutler that he'd believe George Bush against Cut if he had the chance to

[Vhailor]

Oh, and by the way, if you question the front office or Pat Bowlen here, you are told that you are not a "true fan", whatever that means.

That's my big issue. I'm still a die-hard Jay Cutler fan and I'm glad he's been given the opportunity to play in Chicago. Hopefully he can improve that franchise a lot.

But yeah. If you question Pat Bowlen'a decision, you're not a true fan. I don't understand that. Why? Do I have to accept whatever Mr. Bowlen does because he's got carte blanche for the sole reason we got two SB rings over ten years ago? As much as I respect Mr. Bowlen, I don't understand the argument that some fans pose where questioning Bowlen or the front office means you're not a true fan. If I'm a true fan, I'll question anything that deviates from the norm.

This was definitely one of these deviations. Still, I hope it works out for the team. Kyle's no Jay when it comes to passing, but I enjoyed reading how he was already in Denver ready to work. That's a great attitude to have.

[BroncoFanDK]

No cupcake, it's been reported that McDaniels said he told Cutler in Late February. And he didn't say it until after Jay had left the building, so to speak. Wow, that's not convenient. And why wouldn't he say that? What's Jay gonna say? He's gone, he's out, he's in black and orange, where he probably always wanted to be. So why say anything? Seriously. I really do understand wanting to believe in the guy we're left with. I do, I get it. But I'm not naive enough to believe the party line, it's just not going to happen.
And how is it you know Jay was lying when he said they never called him? Huh? Oh wait, because they said they did? Come on man, if they had proof they called him, I would imagine they'd do more than "say" they had it. But hey, you like the coolaid they're serving, drink up. To each their own.

Your beloved Cuddles plays for the Bears now.
Go support him!!!

My impression of him went from wastly overrated to ... what a self absorbed SOB. What a relief to get such a good trade for him, and to ship him out of Denver.

[Vhailor]

Your beloved Cuddles plays for the Bears now.
Go support him!!!

My impression of him went from wastly overrated to ... what a self absorbed SOB. What a relief to get such a good trade for him, and to ship him out of Denver.

We all support Denver, so shut up, man. I'm getting tired of reading posts from people who act like they're better fans than those who felt or still feel that Denver would be a better team if McJaygate had been resolved differently.

[Crazy8]

You think Shanahan was masking Cutler's faults? We differ, I call it actually coaching somebody. You mentor them, play to their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. Something McD should learn to do.

Doesnt the fact that he can't recognize how good Cutler is or the fact that he can't coach him concern you? This is the HC of the team WE ALL love. And don't give me that crap about Matt Cassel. He sat behind Tom Brady for years and had a Super Bowl caliber team, a porsche if you will, to work with. All he had to do was pop the ball in the air for someone to catch it or hand it off. Please. I'm not trying to downplay his accomplishments, but that argument doesn't hold water in this situation.

And I'm sorry, I don't think Bears fans are cocky. I've seen some of them here and they have been mostly graceful, but perplexed. In fact I am envious that they have the excitement of building around a franchise qb that brings life and excitement while we bicker here and figure out if the guy without a spleen or the guy who can't throw past 20 yards is gonna start for us. An excitement that we will never see again with the new Patriots style football in place.

I call it coaching someone too. You put them in a position to succeed. You don't put a player in a position to fail. That's good coaching. Mike Shannahan did a great job with Jake Plummer as well. My point is that Chicago doesn't have good coaches in my opinion. Have you seen the Bears play? Have you seen their offense? Predictable. No continuity. You add both of those together and you get a recipe for disaster offensively. That's why they have to rely so heavily on their defense.

Your opinion on Jay Cutler is where we differ. You think he's a franchise QB. I don't. The great thing about our opinions is that we're going to see first hand. What I saw when Cutler was here was, for specifics, say you have a cover 2 coverage called in the secondary with Stokely in the post wide open. You've got a corner in the flat, a linebacker in the curl zone and a safety over the top. Marshall happens to run a curl and Cutler tries to force it in. Hence the triple coverage (safety, linebacker, corner). I saw this several times from him. For every great play I saw Cutler make, he'd make 1 or 2 like that. It's a simple read. To me, presnap tells you a lot. The first thing you read as a QB are the safeties. Are they split? Are they giving a single safety look? Then you look at the corners. Are they up or back? Are they looking at the QB, are they looking at the WR? That could be a clue whether it's man or zone. Then you check the linebacker alignment. Are they cheated to the strong side? Are they straight up? That's presnap. You can get a good idea what the defense because even if they disguise coverage, the can't be too far out of position because they don't know when you're going to snap the ball. Next you go back to the safeties to see what they do at the snap. You might have different reads depending on the play, but in general the safties on the snap is a good place to start. Then if the corners bail, or if they lock on, or if they drift. The defense will tell you where to go with the football. There's holes in every single defense.

Shannahan masked this by rolling Cutler out, especially when he struggled. When you roll the QB out you change the pass rush angles, you cut the field in half, and you give the QB 2, maybe 3 people to read at most.

I'm fine with you disagreeing with me. Just keep in mind what I'm saying, and I'll keep in mind what you're saying. We'll see. That's the beauty of this season.

[psychobear]

Gee man.....I'm sure glad you changed my mind just by posting another one of your views.

Anyway, I'll stop here, and you can have the last stand, but I'm staying with the Broncos....including Players, Coaches, GM, Owner, etc.....

And if we don't go nuts in 09, we get another high pick to go along with the other 1st rounder. That may sound like I'm too easy on the new administration, but actually I've grown to be quite patient over the last few years....prior to Josh and company.

Ya know... there is dignity in staying loyal to the team. However, through the years I hear the same argument... something about me not being a Bears fan if I disagree with a move they had made. Should I have agreed with management about Rex Grossman? Should I have been happy with David Terrell or Cedric Benson? Should I have been happy with them when they let Chico Rivera go and replaced him with a far inferior Bob Babich? It's pretty clear now that I shouldn't have been very happy with either move as time would tell. No one would say now that I'm not a Bears fan for disagreeing with them there at this point in time. Yet if I did it right off the bat then people would say I'm not a real fan. Do I disagree with this trade right here? I have my reservations about Cutler and I did like Orton. But when you look at what we really traded, it's the equivalent of trading up to the 6th overall pick. If the #6 overall pick you knew had the talent to go to the Pro-Bowl then the trade is a no brainer. Cutler has already gone to the Pro-Bowl... so I would say I like the trade.

Well it's the same situation here. You can disagree with their choice of coach. You can disagree with the way they handled the situation. Time will tell if this works but IF those first round picks are busts, and really a lot of first round picks are busts, then what you have is a new coach that ran a Pro Bowl QB out of town and can't evaluate talent. We had that in Chicago... his name was Dave Wannsteadt. He also destroyed Miami and now is destroying Pitt.

[Shadow7ax]

So what is this thing about going after Quinn? Bogus?

[tsiguy96]

So what is this thing about going after Quinn? Bogus?

not bogus, but id say extremely unlikely to happen.

[Hadez]

There are more people 12 that have a losing record. That aside i agree he has plenty of skills that seperate him from several people in the league however I just don't think that Jay wanted to come back i mean i don't even think that he brought his playbook with him to nashville when he skipped offseason workouts.

Ya I agree. Cutler was going to find a way out after Bates was fired.

Think the last quote from Cutler claiming he did not want a trade after telling his agent he did want a trade was pretty revealing.

[psychobear]

I think you're onto something psychobear...my brother is a cop near chicago, he was telling us years ago that cops immediately know when someone is lying through body language, there are universal cues, just like on that show "Lie To Me".....when you watch McDaniels being interviewed on ESPN, as he answers every single question, his eyes look off to his left, this is not only a sign of lying, but premeditated lying. McD is a liar. He's a smart guy, but not smart enough to know how to cover up his body language.

As my User ID may suggest, I know a thing or 2 about the field. Now the eye movement will tell you 1 thing and 1 thing only... 1 side will go towards the imagination and the other will go towards memory. You don't know which is which for any given person (a popular misconception). Some will use their memory with their eyes going to the left. Others will use their imagination with their eyes going to the right.

Do you want to know which one is which. Start by asking baseline questions. Use something you know he won't lie about and ask him a question based on that. OR... ask a question that he has to think about because that requires the imagination. Something like... "What is your impression as to how close the players are watching you and how you are handling this situation?" which was asked on the March 24th interview at a bit after 6 minutes in. His response is to bring the eys to his left which means when he is imagining or making things up when his eyes go that direction. Inerestingly enough when he was asked "What's not true?" at about 3 minutes and 30 seconds into the interview... you will see when he says "That there were talks about a trade" his eyes moved to his right. Right there he accessed his memory. In other words it's not something he just made up... he actually remembers that happening. He then goes on to say "there wasn't anything that went across Mr. Bolen's desk." Right before that his eyes moved left... which means he doesn't remember that happening. He had to make that up.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80f6a4c0

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