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  1. #1
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    The Case for Chris Simms

    There is no QB controversy . . . McDaniel's certainly didn't have to name a "starting" QB before the start of TC, but he did. He has also named Buckhalter his "starting" RB for what that's worth. Is there a running back "controversy" over it?

    He did so in Kyle's case to bolster Orton's confidence and comfort level. At that point, he had to regard Orton, by virtue of comparative records, recent playing experience, physical condition and other factors, as the front runner for the position. But, as SURELY as "no player is untradeable", no "starter's" status as such is secure either, especially in the face of consistently sub-par performance.

    The starting QB job is Kyle's to keep for the time being . . . or lose, as the case may be. If Kyle performs as badly against the Seagulls as he did against SF, and Simms continues to shine, then I would expect our much maligned HC to reconsider the arrangement in a timely fashion. Simms may get some PT with the 1's in Seattle anyway, just to get a look at what he could do with them.

    Last week Orton drove his team 69 yards to the SF 3 yd line with a nearly picture perfect performance on the Broncos' first possession and then topped it off with an INT. Fifty four of those yards were through the air, only 10 came on the ground running the ball and, 5 were by penalty. Below is the play log:

    1st-10, DEN28 7:48 K. Orton passed to E. Royal to the right for 7 yard gain
    2nd-3, DEN35 7:20 C. Buckhalter rushed to the left for 5 yard gain
    1st-10, DEN40 6:45 K. Orton passed to B. Stokley to the right for 9 yard gain
    2nd-1, DEN49 6:19 C. Buckhalter rushed to the left for no gain
    3rd-1, DEN49 5:40 C. Buckhalter rushed to the right for 2 yard gain
    1st-10, SF49 5:08 SF committed 5 yard penalty
    1st-5, SF44 4:36 K. Orton passed to L. Jordan to the right for 9 yard gain
    1st-10, SF35 4:02 L. Jordan rushed up the middle for 2 yard gain
    2nd-8, SF33 3:30 K. Orton passed to E. Royal to the right for 13 yard gain
    1st-10, SF20 2:48 K. Orton incomplete pass to the right
    2nd-10, SF20 2:43 K. Orton passed to C. Jackson to the right for 9 yard gain
    3rd-1, SF11 2:16 K. Orton passed to E. Royal to the right for 7 yard gain
    1st-4, SF4 1:45 L. Jordan rushed to the left for 1 yard gain
    2nd-3, SF3 0:56 N. Clements intercepted K. Orton for no gain

    Orton's next two series, as we are all aware, ended in the same result . . . futility. Meanwhile, Simms leads the 2's and 3's on three scoring drives in the second half. The most telling to me was the 8th and final series of the night for the Bronco offense. see below:

    1st-10, DEN47 2:31 C. Simms passed to K. McKinley to the left for 1 yard gain
    2nd-9, DEN48 2:18 C. Simms incomplete pass to the right
    3rd-9, DEN48 1:52 K. Lichtensteiger fumbled. C. Simms recovered fumble
    4th-14, DEN43 1:52 C. Simms passed to K. McKinley to the left for 52 yard touchdown. 2pt attempt failed, C. Simms pass to K. McKinley

    Simms threw a 1 yd. completion on 1st down, then an incompletion on second, he loses 5 yards on a fumble attributed to Lichtensteiger (really a muffed exchange between the center and the QB), he's facing 4th and 14 from the shotgun, the snap is low and away and he has to scrape the ball off the ground, he snaps his head up, stands erect, moves around a few steps trying to see the entire field and sails it 40 yards down field to a wide open McKinley for the TD.

    This describes a failed drive and a busted play to boot. Do not expect to see such a calamity end so happily again . . . However, it does suggest some very positive things concerning Chris, who produced a couple of picture perfect drives of his own earlier in the game . . . drives which resulted in actual POINTS. The Broncos' final score of the night showed Chris has the ability to make something out of nothing, even when things don't go perfectly. That's GOT to count for something.

    At any rate, Simm's performance certainly upped the ante and put everyone on notice that Kyle will have to compete to keep his "starting" job . . . We will see how Orton responds to this added pressure. While Chris has demonstrated a knack for making something out of nothing when things go badly, Kyle has only showed what he is capable of doing even when things are otherwise "picture perfect".

    My intuition tells me that Orton may in fact be only the 3rd best option the Broncos have on the current roster . . .
    Last edited by xxxlibertine; 08-18-2009 at 11:04 AM.
    uhhh,this ain't Lou from Aurora

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxxlibertine View Post
    My intuition tells me that Orton may in fact be only the 3rd best option the Broncos have on the current roster . . .
    Muchas lulz was had

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxxlibertine View Post
    There is no QB controversy . . . McDaniel's certainly didn't have to name a "starting" QB before the start of TC, but he did. He has also named Buckhalter his "starting" RB for what that's worth. Is there a running back "controversy" over it?

    He did so in Kyle's case to bolster Orton's confidence and comfort level. At that point, he had to regard Orton, by virtue of comparative records, recent playing experience, physical condition and other factors, as the front runner for the position. But, as SURELY as "no player is untradeable", no "starter's" status as such is secure either, especially in the face of consistently sub-par performance.

    The starting QB job is Kyle's to keep for the time being . . . or lose, as the case may be. If Kyle performs as badly against the Seagulls as he did against SF, and Simms continues to shine, then I would expect our much maligned HC to reconsider the arrangement in a timely fashion. Simms may get some PT with the 1's in Seattle anyway, just to get a look at what he could do with them.

    Last week Orton drove his team 69 yards to the SF 3 yd line with a nearly picture perfect performance on the Broncos' first possession and then topped it off with an INT. Fifty four of those yards were through the air, only 10 came on the ground running the ball and, 5 were by penalty. Below is the play log:

    1st-10, DEN28 7:48 K. Orton passed to E. Royal to the right for 7 yard gain
    2nd-3, DEN35 7:20 C. Buckhalter rushed to the left for 5 yard gain
    1st-10, DEN40 6:45 K. Orton passed to B. Stokley to the right for 9 yard gain
    2nd-1, DEN49 6:19 C. Buckhalter rushed to the left for no gain
    3rd-1, DEN49 5:40 C. Buckhalter rushed to the right for 2 yard gain
    1st-10, SF49 5:08 SF committed 5 yard penalty
    1st-5, SF44 4:36 K. Orton passed to L. Jordan to the right for 9 yard gain
    1st-10, SF35 4:02 L. Jordan rushed up the middle for 2 yard gain
    2nd-8, SF33 3:30 K. Orton passed to E. Royal to the right for 13 yard gain
    1st-10, SF20 2:48 K. Orton incomplete pass to the right
    2nd-10, SF20 2:43 K. Orton passed to C. Jackson to the right for 9 yard gain
    3rd-1, SF11 2:16 K. Orton passed to E. Royal to the right for 7 yard gain
    1st-4, SF4 1:45 L. Jordan rushed to the left for 1 yard gain
    2nd-3, SF3 0:56 N. Clements intercepted K. Orton for no gain

    Orton's next two series, as we are all aware, ended in the same result . . . futility. Meanwhile, Simms leads the 2's and 3's on three scoring drives in the second half. The most telling to me was the 8th and final series of the night for the Bronco offense. see below:

    1st-10, DEN47 2:31 C. Simms passed to K. McKinley to the left for 1 yard gain
    2nd-9, DEN48 2:18 C. Simms incomplete pass to the right
    3rd-9, DEN48 1:52 K. Lichtensteiger fumbled. C. Simms recovered fumble
    4th-14, DEN43 1:52 C. Simms passed to K. McKinley to the left for 52 yard touchdown. 2pt attempt failed, C. Simms pass to K. McKinley

    Simms threw a 1 yd. completion on 1st down, then an incompletion on second, he loses 5 yards on a fumble attributed to Lichtensteiger (really a muffed exchange between the center and the QB), he's facing 4th and 14 from the shotgun, the snap is low and away and he has to scrape the ball off the ground, he snaps his head up, stands erect, moves around a few steps trying to see the entire field and sails it 40 yards down field to a wide open McKinley for the TD.

    This describes a failed drive and a busted play to boot. Do not expect to see such a calamity end so happily again . . . However, it does suggest some very positive things concerning Chris, who produced a couple of picture perfect drives of his own earlier in the game . . . drives which resulted in actual POINTS. The Broncos' final score of the night showed Chris has the ability to make something out of nothing, even when things don't go perfectly. That's GOT to count for something.

    At any rate, Simm's performance certainly upped the ante and put everyone on notice that Kyle will have to compete to keep his "starting" job . . . We will see how Orton responds to this added pressure. While Chris has demonstrated a knack for making something out of nothing when things go badly, Kyle has only showed what he is capable of doing even when things are otherwise "picture perfect".

    My intuition tells me that Orton may in fact be only the 3rd best option the Broncos have on the current roster . . .
    Just chill for a bit huh? It's the was the first pre season game. If Orton is doing this come Sept. 13 okay then. Not a big deal, the guy has had 2 weeks to really work in the offense. Yeesh!

  4. #4
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    I would say the 50 yard TD pass Simms threw was less of a result of him making something out of nothing and more of a result of the 49ers second string defense being the 49ers second string defense (aka blown coverage) though I guess Simms did cause it with all that moving around. It's really unlikely McKinley outran the entire defense so much that he actually had to slow down to catch the ball. Also, Simms really under threw that ball and if that defensive back had been any closer it could have been an interception. Compare them when Simms goes up against Clements and Bly, not a couple of third string scrubs trying to make the team. I guarantee if you had them switch places Orton could have done just as well as Simms and the reverse is also true.

    Please don't give Simms the credit he doesn't deserve.
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  5. #5
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    I don't share your sentiment with chris simms, and don't think he looked picture perfect. Nor do i think that Orton is the 3rd best QB.

    I believe the difference in the formations used, the personnel groupings ect, and the way they "changed" when simms came in is as telling as anything, about where the two QB's are and what McD thinks.

    Why that first drive was choppy, and mixed up and i don't have a clue why McD did it, but it strikes me as trial by fire. In that first drive there was 4 wide with 3 left, next play double tight, single back, then a double slot, and then a power I, and then a base slot offset I with one back going in motion. Every play had people going in and out, and really going uber complex.

    Sims came in and most (all but one, I think) were out of base formations with one or two receivers, and hillis jamming the ball, a much more even tempo'd game with a far more basic look.

    I was watching the game this morning looking at simple formations, and trying to see why McD was doing this, and the only reason i can come up with was he was putting our QBs, WRs, and teams scouting the broncos on notice, and sort of giving them a look at what is available. Telling a guy 100 times that these formations can be called, trying to get your receivers in and out of a game, is all fine and dandy, but if you get some game tape of it, and have video of them reacting then it's not all talk, and now he has examples on tape (since presumably he couldn’t drag NE tape with him).

    It'll be interesting to see this Seattle game and the progressions to see A) how orton reacts, but also to see how the scheme will evolve or how it will be utilized. Will McD go a little more vanilla in the beginning to let Orton get legs and use a system more like what Sims was in, or will he continue his full on assault of weapons, and hope Orton sinks or swims.

    As a preseason game, seeing Orton successfully call the d’s, give blocking responsibilities to the line, and doing a decent job of checking down through the progressions, was good for the first game. He had some int’s, but they are correctable. He also called out stunts, directed traffic, and looked incredibly efficient moving the ball in a deliberate manner.

    Sims checking through 1-2 receivers, and handing to hillis didn’t blow my socks off, he’s serviceable, and I’ll support him, but I don’t think he’s better. Most of the time he had the ball, you ended up in 2nd and long, and 3rd and long hoping for a play because of a incomplete pass or something.

    To fully evaluate, I’d like to see sims in a series like that first one to see if he can handle the first team D blitzing, run the huddle, and keep the game going.
    Last edited by owninit; 08-18-2009 at 11:39 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by LastGoodScene View Post
    I would say the 50 yard TD pass Simms threw was less of a result of him making something out of nothing and more of a result of the 49ers second string defense being the 49ers second string defense (aka blown coverage) though I guess Simms did cause it with all that moving around. It's really unlikely McKinley outran the entire defense so much that he actually had to slow down to catch the ball. Also, Simms really under threw that ball and if that defensive back had been any closer it could have been an interception. Compare them when Simms goes up against Clements and Bly, not a couple of third string scrubs trying to make the team. I guarantee if you had them switch places Orton could have done just as well as Simms and the reverse is also true.

    Please don't give Simms the credit he doesn't deserve.
    Oh please, orton coulnt throw the ball 53 yards if someone had a gun to his head. And why dont you try giving credit where credit is due. Or did you forget that although he was against the 3rd string D he was working with the 3rd string O? It showed several things that Orton is quite simply incapable of doing, being mobile in the pocket, the ability to improvise and overcome a busted play, and most importantly that he possesses a strong arm to deliver the ball, not that wet noodle Orton is sporting. Listen im sorry if you backed Orton and now cant bring yourself to back off of your original stance but the guy is shark chum. Nice guy, but shark chum none the less. AGAIN PEOPLE you cannot make physical talent appear i dont care if you are the greatest QB coach to ever grace the field, and Orton just doesnt have it.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by LastGoodScene View Post
    I would say the 50 yard TD pass Simms threw was less of a result of him making something out of nothing and more of a result of the 49ers second string defense being the 49ers second string defense (aka blown coverage) though I guess Simms did cause it with all that moving around. It's really unlikely McKinley outran the entire defense so much that he actually had to slow down to catch the ball. Also, Simms really under threw that ball and if that defensive back had been any closer it could have been an interception. Compare them when Simms goes up against Clements and Bly, not a couple of third string scrubs trying to make the team. I guarantee if you had them switch places Orton could have done just as well as Simms and the reverse is also true.

    Please don't give Simms the credit he doesn't deserve.
    And i would have to disagree with you...KO is a decent QB, however, in my opinion he is jus a good back-up QB...Simms is a good QB....Nice throwing power, he can scramble pretty well, and he knows how to deliver...I believe if Simms would've started then we would have done much better in that game...or at least the first half...Chris deserves every bit of the credit he is getting b/c no matter if it's the first team deffence or the 4th team deffence...anyone can make a good play.

    Now im not taking any credit away from KO i just think he had a few mental mistakes on friday night but they can and will be tweeked...I believe it will be a race of the two QB's in DENVER to see who the next starting QB will be foor us this 2009 season. Whoever it is i sure hope they can lead us to the playoff's...lol i miss those things...haha:go:
    GO BRONCOS!!!

  8. #8
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    I'm chillin' . . . I did not title this tread "The Case Against Kyle Orton". If one wants to read it as a criticism or indictment of Orton, they may do so. It is certainly no endorsement of him to be sure.

    At this time, I am a totally unbiased observer. Orton has had his detractors and his defenders in a dither since the beginning of TC. I have listened to both sides. I watched him play a few times with the Bears. I saw the weekly recaps of all the games . . . Kyle's Bears past has no bearing on the present with me. It is in fact irrelevant to the current situation. This is not the Chicago Bears and this is not years past. It is merely the here and now and the question is, "What has he done lately?" . . . The answer is in the OP.

    The same questions and approach apply to Simms. What has he done lately? The answer is in the original analysis. We shall see which one of them ultimately prevails in TC. If there ISN'T now a QB controversy, one will surely arise if trends continue as they are.
    uhhh,this ain't Lou from Aurora

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    People would complain no matter what. If McDaniels did not name a starting QB, they would say it's not a good sign when you don't have a clear starter to work with the starting offense, it's not good to enter preseason with a QB competition etc... Since McDaniels named Orton the starter and he threw 3 picks, they say no one should have been named starter yet, now Simms won't have a fair shot, etc...

    I think Simms schooled Orton, he was clearly superior. Not only he played better and made better throws, he showed excitement and lit a fire on the field. Orton looked way too calm, almost depressive, and hesitant. It will be very interesting to see what happens against the Seahawks.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevelkinevil View Post
    Oh please, orton coulnt throw the ball 53 yards if someone had a gun to his head. And why dont you try giving credit where credit is due. Or did you forget that although he was against the 3rd string D he was working with the 3rd string O? It showed several things that Orton is quite simply incapable of doing, being mobile in the pocket, the ability to improvise and overcome a busted play, and most importantly that he possesses a strong arm to deliver the ball, not that wet noodle Orton is sporting. Listen im sorry if you backed Orton and now cant bring yourself to back off of your original stance but the guy is shark chum. Nice guy, but shark chum none the less. AGAIN PEOPLE you cannot make physical talent appear i dont care if you are the greatest QB coach to ever grace the field, and Orton just doesnt have it.
    I suppose if Simms can play well against the third string defense that means he can play well against the first? It is not a debate whether Simms is a capable back up, he certainly proved that yesterday going up against the other back ups. Simms SHOULD be playing well against latter string defenses because he's being considered by some to be starting material, so I don't understand that argument. Apart from that, I think there is something you aren't understanding. There is a natural drop off of talent for both teams when they put in their back ups, not just us or them. That means it is an even playing field for both teams, excluding the variable of Simms (our "starting caliber QB") because he is the one person on the field who needs to be playing better than everyone else (hence "starting QB"). Anyway my point is that you can't look too far into this, it's not like Chris blew everyone away especially considering he wasn't actually playing the 1sts. And a seemingly normal play can look good against bad players, that one TD pass might have been a sack against the 1sts, who knows. And I'm not calling Chris a bad QB, I just think Orton is better.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by LastGoodScene View Post
    I suppose if Simms can play well against the third string defense that means he can play well against the first? It is not a debate whether Simms is a capable back up, he certainly proved that yesterday going up against the other back ups. Simms SHOULD be playing well against latter string defenses because he's being considered by some to be starting material, so I don't understand that argument. Apart from that, I think there is something you aren't understanding. There is a natural drop off of talent for both teams when they put in their back ups, not just us or them. That means it is an even playing field for both teams, excluding the variable of Simms (our "starting caliber QB") because he is the one person on the field who needs to be playing better than everyone else (hence "starting QB"). Anyway my point is that you can't look too far into this, it's not like Chris blew everyone away especially considering he wasn't actually playing the 1sts. And a seemingly normal play can look good against bad players, that one TD pass might have been a sack against the 1sts, who knows. And I'm not calling Chris a bad QB, I just think Orton is better.

    lol @ your sig

  12. #12
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    Thought I'd throw this in here...

    http://www.jocklife.net/news/nfl/den...or-orton-28356

    Denver Broncos mull over Simms or Orton
    Submitted by admin on August 17, 2009 - 5:10pm NFL 49ers Bears Broncos Buccaneers Panthers Carolina Panthers Denver Broncos Tampa Bay Buccaneers Contributor

    One game into the 2009 preseason, the Denver Broncos saw their starting quarterback sorely outperformed by their backup.

    Kyle Orton began his first series in a Broncos uniform last Friday evening with an efficient 5-for-5 flurry and things were looking up for the former Chicago quarterback. Orton was able to march his team down to the San Francisco 3-yardline before making his first of three mistakes on the night. With a pass intended for tight end Daniel Graham, Orton threw an ill-advised pass into the waiting arms of cornerback Nate Clements.

    Orton finished his first drive as a Bronco, 6-of-8 for 54 yards and an interception. Certainly the interception could have been avoided, but all-in-all the quarterback looked like he would be able to rebound and instill some faith into the Broncos faithful.

    Able he was not as on the very next possession Orton tossed his second interception of the evening. With a pass intended for Brandon Stokley, Orton threw the ball woefully short and Denver castoff Dre Bly exacted a reasonable amount of revenge on his former team with the pick.

    Orton entered his third series as the Denver Broncos starting quarterback just hoping to keep the ball out of the opposing teams hands. With the ball on the Broncos 11, Orton was in shotgun and through a pass deep left that did not go deep enough as the ball was intercepted by Reggie Smith and returned to the Denver 6. The throw was an obvious display of lack of arm-strength and showed perhaps that Orton was very capable of managing a game, just not changing it in a positive way.

    The former Boilermaker was able to stave off four consecutive interceptions just barely as a ball went right through a 49ers wickets during his fourth series as a Denver Bronco and punter Brett Kern was brought onto the field. Orton finished his evening 9-of-16 for 89 yards, three interceptions and a disasterous rating of 32.6.

    Enter Chris Simms in the first series of the second half and the Broncos decided to keep it on the ground. The 49ers second team defense saw a heavy dose of the Broncos running attack but Simms did have his opportunities. Simms went 3-for-4 for 26 yards and a touchdown in his first series as a member of the Broncos.

    The Broncos finished the third quarter with the ball and Simms was 5-for-7 for 48 yards and touchdown at that point. Simms was able to complete a 25-yard pass to former 49er Brandon Lloyd setting up a 26-yard Matt Prater field goal early in the fourth.

    After the first stalled possession of the second half, Simms showed some his athleticism and strong armed ability in his next series. After fumbling the snap from center, Simms improvised and whirled his way out of the pocket. A deep pass to Kenny McKinley was hauled in a for a 52-yard touchdown. The Broncos went for two and the win but Simms’ pass fell incomplete to McKinley in the endzone. Simms ended his evening 11-of-17 for 142 yards, two touchdowns and a rating of 130.0.

    Orton appeared to have an arm incapable of making the deep throws needed to be a successful NFL quarterback whereas Simms still has all the tools that made him one of the top emerging young quarterbacks for Jon Gruden in 2005. Despite the vast differences Friday night, both quarterbacks were similar in that they did not get their jerseys dirtied both avoiding a single sack.

    Simms led the Tampa Bay Buccaneers to the playoffs in ’05 and was setup for a breakout 2006. But just three games in to the ’06 season, Simms had to be rushed to the hospital after a big hit versus the Carolina Panthers. The former Longhorn had to have his spleen removed and has yet to start an NFL game.

    In 2005 Orton led Chicago to the post-season only to be unseated by Rex Grossman in the playoffs. Many Bears fans argue the fact that it wasn’t Orton that led that team, it was its defense and Orton just managed the games. In fact, managing the game is still what Orton is best at, ala Chad Pennington, but will that be enough for a Broncos team looking to replace an Pro Bowl quarterback?

    Third-string quarterback Tom Brandstater may be a player to be reckoned with in the future, but the sixth round pick most likely won’t mature quickly enough for McDaniel’s system this season. Brandstater does have many of the measureables and capabilities many evaluators look for in an NFL quarterback and could very well prove as the Broncos signal caller of the furture.

    Simms may get a preseason start and Week 3 may make sense since the Broncos are hosting the Bears. If anything, McDaniels has shown that he is stubborn enough to stick with initial starter in Orton, even if the quarterback is not throwing with the strength needed to be a difference maker in the NFL.

    Orton and Simms are the most unlikely of Broncos starters for the 2009 season after Jay Cutler made the Pro Bowl in 2008, but now one of the two will be under center Week 1 at Cincinnati as Cutler is in Chicago. One thing is for certain though, whoever the starter is Week 1, they will be throwing behind one of the top O-lines in the league.

    McDaniels possibly made one of the most stubborn moves ever by a first year coach, but time will only tell if he is a genius or will be looking for a new job before his next shave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleed_orange_bl View Post
    Just chill for a bit huh? It's the was the first pre season game. If Orton is doing this come Sept. 13 okay then. Not a big deal, the guy has had 2 weeks to really work in the offense. Yeesh!
    Saved me some typing. Word.

    The pre-season means NOTHING people. Who knows how Orton will do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broncosojia View Post
    lol @ your sig
    If I knew it would have only been good for a month I wouldn't have spent as much time on it
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    Good job with the write up. Other than that I don't agree with it. Yes, Orton had a bad game, but it was one game and it cannot be the determining factor in whether we start or sit Orton.

    What would we do if we sat Orton and Simms came out and throws two or three picks against Seattle? Do we then throw Brandstater in? What if Orton comes out and throws three touchdowns against the Seahawks? Do we hail him as the next great coming?

    The point is one game cannot and should not determine the future of a QB. Orton had some nice throws, but he made some key mistakes. With some coaching and experience he will work out those kinks and become a serviceable QB.

    We need to worry much more about our defense.

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