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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindField View Post
    A few things here:

    1) I think Cameron Jordan is going to be a better Pro than JJ Watt hands down, and unfortunately for MUG, Mike Mayock's blessings these days are like the kiss of death. I think Mike Mayock blows, and that is coming from a guy who bought in to whatever he was selling three years ago...but he has whiffed so badly in recent seasons on highly rated prospects, that I take everything he says with less than a grain of salt.

    Watt is not bigger or 'heavier' than Cameron Jordan, and in fact, there are reports Watt is closer to 278 or so, which means if he weighs in at 290 or whatever later, he could be pumped up. Cam Jordan is a full grown man at
    6'4"-287, and I fully expect he will grade out stronger, and is much better at holding the point of attack against the run than either Bowers or Watt. JJ Watt is stronger and has more bulk.

    Bowers has better raw pass rush skills than either Jordan or Watt, and probably has the best closing speed. Sp to me, the choice is Bowers for his pass rush upside, or Jordan for his physical presence, versatilty, incredible insticts and technique. Bowers doesnt have better pass rushing than either of these guys. He has pass rushing skills at the college level because he is stronger than everyone and relies on bad footwork by the tackles. two things that will not happen in the NFL. He has no moves at all. Bowers is ayers 2.0. Run stuffer.

    To me, Watt isn't even in the race.

    2) So, the REALITY is, the debate at No. 2 is really probably between Da'Quan Bowers and Marcell Dareus, and in the end, I suspect the Broncos will go Dareus to play at DT. I have not been thrilled with Dareus over the last year, but he is going to be a stout 6'3"-310 or so, with great interior qquickness, and I guess I will bank on his college experience at Alabama and winning a National Championship...that is what I think ultimately the choice will be for the Broncos, Dareus or Bowers.
    ...............................................My thoughtsa re in bold

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindField View Post
    A few things here:

    1) I think Cameron Jordan is going to be a better Pro than JJ Watt hands down, and unfortunately for MUG, Mike Mayock's blessings these days are like the kiss of death. I think Mike Mayock blows, and that is coming from a guy who bought in to whatever he was selling three years ago...but he has whiffed so badly in recent seasons on highly rated prospects, that I take everything he says with less than a grain of salt.

    Watt is not bigger or 'heavier' than Cameron Jordan, and in fact, there are reports Watt is closer to 278 or so, which means if he weighs in at 290 or whatever later, he could be pumped up. Cam Jordan is a full grown man at
    6'4"-287, and I fully expect he will grade out stronger, and is much better at holding the point of attack against the run than either Bowers or Watt.

    Bowers has incredible raw pass rush skills than either Jordan or Watt, and probably has the best closing speed. So to me, if the choice is DE, the choice is Bowers for his pass rush upside, or Jordan for his physical presence, versatilty, incredible insticts and technique.

    To me, Watt isn't even in the race.

    2) So, the REALITY is, the debate at No. 2 is really probably between Da'Quan Bowers and Marcell Dareus, and in the end, I suspect the Broncos will go Dareus to play at DT. I have not been thrilled with Dareus over the last year, but he is going to be a stout 6'3"-310 or so, with great interior qquickness, and I guess I will bank on his college experience at Alabama and winning a National Championship, and I will buy into the idea that he will be liberated as a 4-3 DT, and really show his natural pass rush skills...so that is what I think ultimately the choice will be for the Broncos, Dareus or Bowers.

    So in the end...

    I think the Broncos are going to pencil Ayers in at LDE, and try to salvage something from a former first round draft pick, and the Broncos need to start to rebuild from the inside out, so the pick is Marcell Dareus almost by default, unless...

    Is that Corey Liuget I see in the rear-view mirror?

    A smart guy I know said he is pretty good...
    A second change of heart in as many days? Where did that come from?

    I like Liuget, but not at 2. If we trade back to 10, then I am all for Liuget.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
    You may be right about that. DJ did start that game at WOLB. Oh, the good old days when we had Webster and Winborn starting at LB.

    I see WW as another Ian Gold but not as good. I think he will make plays here and there but will never be a major factor and will become a liability.
    The Broncos almost have to tread water at LB, because there isn't alot out there in the draft, or in free agency, and with as many issues as the Broncos have on the d-line and in the secondary, they are going to have to get by with a lineup that looks something like this:

    SAM Mario Haggan

    MIKE Joe Mays

    WILL DJ Williams or Wesley Woodyard

    The Broncos will have to make due for a season at LB, because they can't replace everything all at once.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindField View Post
    A few things here:

    1) I think Cameron Jordan is going to be a better Pro than JJ Watt hands down, and unfortunately for MUG, Mike Mayock's blessings these days are like the kiss of death. I think Mike Mayock blows, and that is coming from a guy who bought in to whatever he was selling three years ago...but he has whiffed so badly in recent seasons on highly rated prospects, that I take everything he says with less than a grain of salt.

    Watt is not bigger or 'heavier' than Cameron Jordan, and in fact, there are reports Watt is closer to 278 or so, which means if he weighs in at 290 or whatever later, he could be pumped up. Cam Jordan is a full grown man at
    6'4"-287, and I fully expect he will grade out stronger, and is much better at holding the point of attack against the run than either Bowers or Watt.

    Bowers has incredible raw pass rush skills than either Jordan or Watt, and probably has the best closing speed. So to me, if the choice is DE, the choice is Bowers for his pass rush upside, or Jordan for his physical presence, versatilty, incredible insticts and technique.

    To me, Watt isn't even in the race.

    2) So, the REALITY is, the debate at No. 2 is really probably between Da'Quan Bowers and Marcell Dareus, and in the end, I suspect the Broncos will go Dareus to play at DT. I have not been thrilled with Dareus over the last year, but he is going to be a stout 6'3"-310 or so, with great interior qquickness, and I guess I will bank on his college experience at Alabama and winning a National Championship, and I will buy into the idea that he will be liberated as a 4-3 DT, and really show his natural pass rush skills...so that is what I think ultimately the choice will be for the Broncos, Dareus or Bowers.

    So in the end...

    I think the Broncos are going to pencil Ayers in at LDE, and try to salvage something from a former first round draft pick, and the Broncos need to start to rebuild from the inside out, so the pick is Marcell Dareus almost by default, unless...

    Is that Corey Liuget I see in the rear-view mirror?

    A smart guy I know said he is pretty good...
    Wow everything I was thinking but better written.

    Bowers is a Bull Rush pass rusher if he is actually managing to knock down the 2nd highest paid player on your team well then you need to double team him and find a new LT.

    Bowers is a project and thats not what we need at #2, Jordan has elite swim moves and a club that is fatal, he can also rip and bull rush like the best of them. He may not have closing speed, but he can create holes in the O-line and scare some QB's. I have to see his 10 yard dash to really judge that burst but I feel its underrated.
    Last edited by Joshecalpoly; 02-08-2011 at 09:16 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by THEdraftnik View Post
    A second change of heart in as many days? Where did that come from?

    I like Liuget, but not at 2. If we trade back to 10, then I am all for Liuget.
    I did not change anything, and even if I did, who says you can't change your opinion with more information?

    For the record, I am not necessarily a fan of Dareus, and I maintain my concerns about him.

    I have questions about Da'Quan Bowers as well.

    My choice would be Cameron Jordan, but the Broncos rarely agree with what I think, so I fully expect the choice to be between Dareus and Bowers.

    As far as Liuget goes, McShay says his tape and fundamental skills rival Nick Fairley, for whatever that's worth....all I know is that I saw Liuget absolutely destroy Baylor; just dominate that game, while Phil Taylor went almost un-noticed.

    I posted here immediately after that game that Liuget would be moving up, and he has. At 6'3", he is built perfectly for a 4-3 DT, and he is young, and he should be able to easily get to the 310-315lb range in a couple of years.

    McShay and Co have him at No. 11 overall now, again, take that for what you will, but Liuget looks like a stud DT to me. He just knocks OG's around like bowling pins. Very physical, and apparently a very good technician for his age.

    Not bad for a kid you thought was a third round prospect at best, huh?
    Last edited by MindField; 02-08-2011 at 09:55 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    ...............................................My thoughtsa re in bold
    Watt is like Paea, and is not going to weigh-in as big as some assume.

    To me, Watt is more like Chris Long, and I thought MUG had the wrong comparison for Mario Williams, as that is who Cameron Jordan looks like to me.

    I am not against Watt, as I too believe he will be a good player, I just don't think he is going to rise as high as MUG thinks he will.

    Cameron Jordan probably won't either, but I do know Dallas is drooling over the thought of Jordan at No 9...so who knows?

    As far as Bowers is concerned, dude, don't make excuses for 17 sacks in the ACC, OK? Just don't. They did that to Elvis Dumervil too.

    A 6'4"-280 DE that can rush the passer like Bowers? Obviously, he is going to be highly touted.

    My concerns about Bowers are more about things like his work ethic and character, and his willingness to pay the price. He has grown up a pampered, highly coveted athlete from Jr High on, so that makes me wonder about his commitment to being a tough, physical player, particularly against the run, not his physical skills, because the kid is an absolute marvel.

    He probably has the most natural skills of Fairley, Dareus, Jordan or Watt...the question is, will he work to develop his game to where it needs to go to be truly great?

    To me, that is the $64K question...because if he does, look the hell out, he could be a modern day Richard Dent.

    That's why I like Jordan. I already know he has an elite work ethic to go with his size and skills.
    Last edited by MindField; 02-08-2011 at 09:51 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindField View Post
    Watt is like Paea, and is not going to weigh-in as big as some assume. Nothing like. At all. Terrible comparison. Paea is a bowling ball who plays with leverage naturally due to his heght. He has amazing initial burst. Watt is like 5 inches bigger plays a different position. Is more athletic. Plays a completely different game. Tackles differently. Rushes the passer differently.

    To me, Watt is more like Chris Long, and I thought MUG had the wrong comparison for Mario Williams, as that is who Cameron Jordan looks like to me.

    I am not against Watt, as I too believe he will be a good player, I just don't think he is going to rise as high as MUG thinks he will.

    Cameron Jordan probably won't either, but I do know Dallas is drooling over the thought of Jordan at No 9...so who knows?

    As far as Bowers is concerned, dude, don't make excuses for 17 sacks in the ACC, OK? Just don't. They did that to Elvis Dumervil too. Exept elvis did show pass rush moves coming out of college. I am going to guess you have not watched bowers. Cause if you hgave you would know he doesnt rush the passer with moves. He does it with strength. Something he will not do in the NFL.

    A 6'4"-280 DE that can rush the passer like Bowers? Obviously, he is going to be highly touted.

    My concerns about Bowers are more about things like his work ethic and character, and his willingness to pay the price. He has grown up a pampered, highly coveted athlete from Jr High on, so that makes me wonder about his commitment to being a tough, physical player, particularly against the run, not his physical skills, because the kid is an absolute marvel. He is better against the run.

    He probably has the most natural skills of Fairley, Dareus, Jordan or Watt...the question is, will he work to develop his game to where it needs to go to be truly great?

    To me, that is the $64K question...because if he does, look the hell out, he could be a modern day Richard Dent.

    That's why I like Jordan. I already know he has an elite work ethic to go with his size and skills.
    I like jordan too but you are completely wrong about bowers pass rushing ability

  8. #68
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    Thanks for the reassurance about Cameron Jordan Mindfield,broncos,and Josh.Jordan will impact a team and be a playmaker,he will not dissappoint if we draft him.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan View Post
    Since we had so much discussion on Watt throughout the collegiate season, I thought it was nice to finally get Mayock's thoughts on him.

    Keep in mind, Mayock just watched Cameron Jordan blow up the Senior Bowl as the best player on either team. Watt still was rated higher.

    So, if Jordan is a potential Top 10 selection and Watt is rated higher, maybe we do take him #2 overall.



    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-in-the-first/
    JJ Watt #2? This is almost as bad as the year you rode the Frank Okam bandwagon.

    I like Watt but at least trading down to #15 first. No need to overdraft him when there are 3-4 DEs ranked ahead of him. I also really like Kerrigan, Quinn, and Dareus too.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Momentum View Post
    JJ Watt #2? This is almost as bad as the year you rode the Frank Okam bandwagon.

    I like Watt but at least trading down to #15 first. No need to overdraft him when there are 3-4 DEs ranked ahead of him. I also really like Kerrigan, Quinn, and Dareus too.
    Kerrigan and quinn are not 3-4 ends. You prob knew that though just worded it wrong. Quinn is dumervil 2.0. Great pass rusher who struggles against the run. Kerrigen is great against the run and the pass. However he looks terrible in space. I dont like him at all in a 3-4 as an OLB.

  11. #71
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    Bowers can only dream of being the pass rusher Elvis is.

    I'm sorry, but nothing about his play suggests top 10 pick. You don't draft primary run stoppers at 4-3 end with top 10 picks.

    End of story.

    St. Louis Rams GM

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukic View Post
    Bowers can only dream of being the pass rusher Elvis is.

    I'm sorry, but nothing about his play suggests top 10 pick. You don't draft primary run stoppers at 4-3 end with top 10 picks.

    End of story.
    Another person with a brain

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindField View Post
    I did not change anything, and even if I did, who says you can't change your opinion with more information?

    For the record, I am not necessarily a fan of Dareus, and I maintain my concerns about him.

    I have questions about Da'Quan Bowers as well.

    My choice would be Cameron Jordan, but the Broncos rarely agree with what I think, so I fully expect the choice to be between Dareus and Bowers.

    As far as Liuget goes, McShay says his tape and fundamental skills rival Nick Fairley, for whatever that's worth....all I know is that I saw Liuget absolutely destroy Baylor; just dominate that game, while Phil Taylor went almost un-noticed.

    I posted here immediately after that game that Liuget would be moving up, and he has. At 6'3", he is built perfectly for a 4-3 DT, and he is young, and he should be able to easily get to the 310-315lb range in a couple of years.

    McShay and Co have him at No. 11 overall now, again, take that for what you will, but Liuget looks like a stud DT to me. He just knocks OG's around like bowling pins. Very physical, and apparently a very good technician for his age.

    Not bad for a kid you thought was a third round prospect at best, huh?
    That's where his stock was before the game,

    I honestly watched the game because of Phil Taylor. I was extremely impressed with Liuget, I think he has a strong enough base to play nose. He was doubled every play and and pushed both blockers back, every play.

    I simply didn't realize he would skyrocket after one game. But then I looked into the rest of that season.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by THEdraftnik View Post
    That's where his stock was before the game,

    I honestly watched the game because of Phil Taylor. I was extremely impressed with Liuget, I think he has a strong enough base to play nose. He was doubled every play and and pushed both blockers back, every play.

    I simply didn't realize he would skyrocket after one game. But then I looked into the rest of that season.

    Im really hoping for a terrible performance at the combine by luiget and/or houston so they are there at our 2nd pick

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Im really hoping for a terrible performance at the combine by luiget and/or houston so they are there at our 2nd pick
    This. We could use both.

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