Game of Thrones

[dipablo]

If the politics and character drama are just distractions as you believe, then they sure devoted a LOT of time -like most of it- to these "distractions"!

That's where the meat of the story is and all the good stuff. The background existential threat of the Dead is just one of many themes. I already highlighted transformation and redemption, and there a quite a few more in this complex story besides these. If you Google for its themes you'll find many articles on them.

Yes Martin said what you quoted and also that it's “a perfect metaphor for understanding climate change.” but this is not intentional, not planned, nor an allegory to our own world, as he explicitly said in 2013:

“JRR Tolkien strenuously denied that his books were in any way an allegory for World War II, have you ever been accused of writing about climate change by proxy? You know, it being a bit of a thing in your works, the long Winter?” George replied, “No, I haven’t, not until now,” and continued, “Like Tolkien I do not write allegory, at least not intentionally. Obviously you live in the world and you’re affected by the world around you, so some things sink in on some level, but, if I really wanted to write about climate change in the 21st century I’d write a novel about climate change in the 21st century. Sometimes things happen that are hard to believe. You have to remember I’ve been writing these since 1991..."

http://nerdalicious.com.au/books/geo...nd-of-thrones/

And I do recall an interview with Martin in which he stated unequivocally that this isn't just about a zombie apocalypse.

You are proving my point, that the story is about something bigger then politics. If he admits its a parallel, even unintentional, its still a parallel and points to Greater Threat over politics.

Martin has also said that Aegon the Conqueror, united the 7 kingdoms because he knew the threat of the Others would return and knew a united kingdom stood a better chance. Another example that the root of the story is stopping the Others. It is the overarching theme above them all. Azor Ahai, that is the prophecy that matters, by her own prophecy cersei should already be dead.

[Freestyle]

Have to agree with one of the first comments: "if anyone thinks a twist this convoluted and nuanced is yet to happen still on the show, they're frankly deluded."

The denial is strong out there!

Agree, and to be realistic, a clever twist that'll blow everyone's socks off isn't likely to happen. You can see in the interviews in the last two seasons that they write for moments that might be cool, then reverse engineer the plot to get there. We've had way more "what the heck, why doesn't the Night King just lauch javelins at them when they are on that island" moments rather than "oh wow that was well set up" recently. I'm disappointed as well as a lot of us are, I thought the Night King and the Great War was a lot more than just a plot device to make the North weaker. Everything, from the thousands of years of history to the endless amounts of prophecies told me that the political squabble was the lesser, but I guess I can't be surprised that it is really the main attraction of the show.

After watching the after show and seeing D&D talk about the Valyrian steel dagger going into the same place that the Children of the Forest stabbed to create the Night King, it's pretty much over. That and the confirmation that the Dothraki are now an extinct culture, we're gonna get a weak North vs Cersei to close out the show. I'd say I'm about 95% certain we're not gonna get a huge twist but we'll just have to let it play out.

[Freestyle]

Most of Cersei's doings were driven by Tywin, not her. It wasn't until Tywin died and Tyrion fled that she did anything on her own. And since she has done nothing but screw things up. I am unsure how someone with literally 0 claim to the throne can be considered the top bad. Dorne will not support her, the Reach will not after she killed the Tyrells, The Vale already sided with the north and guess what the riverlands will do? It laughable to think with only sellswords and pirates that she has a chance.

The only real issue left to solve is between Jon and Dany, who wins the claim.Yawn.

KL and the IT should have been dealt with first with those remaining banding together to stop the NK to save the realm.

Cersei isn't really a great villain, she's only slightly more competent than Joffrey and is only dangerous because of her resources. She nearly ended her own story by giving the High Sparrow power, till Qyburn bailed her out. Tywin's line summed it up "You're not as smart as you think you are."

It's laughable that she is the last obstacle, but I guess they wanted a more back and forth battle to end the show rather than a one sided butt kicking the army of the dead unleashed.

[broncos SB2010]

Would enjoy this more then just Cersei, Sadly i think LM is right D&D prefers the political game over the Fantasy side even though that's not the heart of the books in my eyes, I know you disagree LM.

I'm going to have agree with him. Politics and intrigue is the book.

[EddieMac]

I would say this show far more about politics than fantasy..

Hence game of thrones...politics..

[dipablo]

I'm going to have agree with him. Politics and intrigue is the book.

Ill agree the SHOW obviously is especially after Ep3, with Arya ending the NK threat (Thank the gods she watched The Last Jedi the night before!) with 3 episodes left, but not the books. The books is all about The Prince That was Promised and Azor Ahai and The Great Other, its filled with magic and prophecies. The show just skipped over most of these things.

The books arent in the fiction section of the book store, they are in the fantasy section.

[broncos SB2010]

Ill agree the SHOW obviously is especially after Ep3, with Arya ending the NK threat (Thank the gods she watched The Last Jedi the night before!) with 3 episodes left, but not the books. The books is all about The Prince That was Promised and Azor Ahai and The Great Other, its filled with magic and prophecies. The show just skipped over most of these things.

The books arent in the fiction section of the book store, they are in the fantasy section.

Books are the same...I read them.

[L.M.]

You are proving my point, that the story is about something bigger then politics. If he admits its a parallel, even unintentional, its still a parallel and points to Greater Threat over politics.

Martin has also said that Aegon the Conqueror, united the 7 kingdoms because he knew the threat of the Others would return and knew a united kingdom stood a better chance. Another example that the root of the story is stopping the Others. It is the overarching theme above them all. Azor Ahai, that is the prophecy that matters, by her own prophecy cersei should already be dead.

How on earth can you read that and misconstrue that it somehow supports your point when it actually disproves it? The fact that he explicitly said he doesn't use allegory means that its parallel with our world is a coincidence.

I'm reading Fire and Blood right now. Aegon's motives for conquest were anything but the threat of the Others which at that point was a myth, something that occurred thousands of years ago.

Azor Ahai was never mentioned in this show. I suspect now that whole Prince That Was Promised prophecy of the Lord of Light was a red herring (Martin does use those) setting up a twist. There's still four hours left, so we'll have to wait to make sure.

I never said that the existential threat of the Others wasn't a theme, it definitely is, but it is most certainly a background element, a device to add tension to the story. You think it's ALL about that, despite the fact that it has hardly any screen time and most is devoted to character-driven dramas, not that.

[L.M.]

Would enjoy this more then just Cersei, Sadly i think LM is right D&D prefers the political game over the Fantasy side even though that's not the heart of the books in my eyes, I know you disagree LM.

I think D&D are following what little Martin gave them after The Dance of Dragons, and they have struggled to do that very well because they just didn't have the luxury of years to contemplate a more complex way to wrap up many story lines. They are also not as intelligent as Martin. They value spectacle, pretty pictures and shocking moments without very susbtantial nor logical connective tissue. But I do believe they have followed Martin's main story beats, and he just stated that their adaptation has been extremely faithful with big stuff -main characters.

The heart of the books, the main theme is character transformation. All of the main characters since season one have dramatically changed. The children have grown, but been through incredible experiences which have facilitated radical transformations, no one more so than Arya and Bran. But Dany, Tyrion, Theon, Sansa, and Jon are all substantially different now too. Jaime has gone from dark grey to almost as white as Brienne, while Cersei has gone from dark grey to black. Dany seems to be darkening too...

Political intrigue, war, and quests offered scenarios which facilitated these transformations.

[L.M.]

Cersei isn't really a great villain, she's only slightly more competent than Joffrey and is only dangerous because of her resources. She nearly ended her own story by giving the High Sparrow power, till Qyburn bailed her out. Tywin's line summed it up "You're not as smart as you think you are."

It's laughable that she is the last obstacle, but I guess they wanted a more back and forth battle to end the show rather than a one sided butt kicking the army of the dead unleashed.

Dany's ambition and ruthlessness might just make her the final problem.

[L.M.]

Agree, and to be realistic, a clever twist that'll blow everyone's socks off isn't likely to happen. You can see in the interviews in the last two seasons that they write for moments that might be cool, then reverse engineer the plot to get there. We've had way more "what the heck, why doesn't the Night King just lauch javelins at them when they are on that island" moments rather than "oh wow that was well set up" recently. I'm disappointed as well as a lot of us are, I thought the Night King and the Great War was a lot more than just a plot device to make the North weaker. Everything, from the thousands of years of history to the endless amounts of prophecies told me that the political squabble was the lesser, but I guess I can't be surprised that it is really the main attraction of the show.

After watching the after show and seeing D&D talk about the Valyrian steel dagger going into the same place that the Children of the Forest stabbed to create the Night King, it's pretty much over. That and the confirmation that the Dothraki are now an extinct culture, we're gonna get a weak North vs Cersei to close out the show. I'd say I'm about 95% certain we're not gonna get a huge twist but we'll just have to let it play out.

I would assume that Dothraki wives, children, elderly, and some hunter/protectors were left behind.

The Northern army still has dragons, and perhaps they can muster additional forces from the Vale and the Riverlands, bring in Robin Arryn and Edmure Tully for the final battle.

[L.M.]

[L.M.]

One of my favorite comments on the ratings thread for this episode at Westeros:

"Remember that Martin deliberately set out to smash the tired old tropes of high fantasy that were (and still are) being mindlessly repeated in an endless number of boring, predictable novels. We’ve seen this ever since Ned lost his head, and all the rest.

You can be sure that in Martin’s head it was always going to the dark sister who would unexpectedly pull a Howland Reed move at the end to defeat an undefeatable opponent. That’s why this was shown to Bran seasons ago now. Even Melisandre knew it.

Only Jon and Dany, the storybook “heroes”, didn’t know it. Which is just fine.

If you really think this isn’t what Martin has always planned, then you must not know his wife’s views on Arya. "

__________________________________________

He makes an excellent point about subverting tropes here, and a lot of fan expectations are built on those.

I rated "The Long Night" a 7/10 --one point more than the two previous episodes. It was good, but not great. It should have been a 10 for all the hype it got.

I've already mentioned my main gripes with it in previous posts, but there's a couple more nitpicks. I don't mind Arya doing the deed but did she have to hog all the glory? At the very least Jon should have slain the Viserion wight, and it looked like he stood up and gave up to be eaten or incinerated just before Arya annihilated the dead:



That's awful.

I also don't care for Sam's placement on the battlefield and his improbable survival. The crypt, or up on the ramparts with a crossbow, is where he belonged. They just wanted him with Edd when he died, but that could have easily been arranged inside instead, where many survivors were retreating anyway.

I did enjoy all of Melisandre's scenes, Tyrion's and Sansa's moment, Lyanna's epic death, Theon's epic death, Jorah's epic death, genuine emotion from Dany, stunning shots like the weapons and the trench lighting up, the Walkers sending in a swirling storm, the switches from intense battle to quieter sections and back again, the mounting tension at the beginning and the suspense in the castle...and really throughout --I was on the edge of my seat for most of this episode!

I was entertained, and that's the whole point of it, so the show still succeeds despite some flaws.

[dipablo]

How on earth can you read that and misconstrue that it somehow supports your point when it actually disproves it? The fact that he explicitly said he doesn't use allegory means that its parallel with our world is a coincidence.

I'm reading Fire and Blood right now. Aegon's motives for conquest were anything but the threat of the Others which at that point was a myth, something that occurred thousands of years ago.

Azor Ahai was never mentioned in this show. I suspect now that whole Prince That Was Promised prophecy of the Lord of Light was a red herring (Martin does use those) setting up a twist. There's still four hours left, so we'll have to wait to make sure.

I never said that the existential threat of the Others wasn't a theme, it definitely is, but it is most certainly a background element, a device to add tension to the story. You think it's ALL about that, despite the fact that it has hardly any screen time and most is devoted to character-driven dramas, not that.

Its still a parallel. that means same

https://www.esquire.com/entertainmen...hrones-theory/

Just going off this quote.

No i dont think its ALL about the Others just that i think its the main overarching theme, coming from the books, I agree with you that show obviously isn't following that line as this last episode showed me and has them as the secondary. Like you said they dont even mention Azor Ahai which is baffling because again, that prophecy is repeated over and over in the books.
Just not how i see the books going.
I still enjoyed the episode overall just took some of the wind from my sails for the last 3. Im sure they will still be visually spectacular.

This is the greatest thing ever.

One of my favorite comments on the ratings thread for this episode at Westeros:

"Remember that Martin deliberately set out to smash the tired old tropes of high fantasy that were (and still are) being mindlessly repeated in an endless number of boring, predictable novels. We’ve seen this ever since Ned lost his head, and all the rest.

You can be sure that in Martin’s head it was always going to the dark sister who would unexpectedly pull a Howland Reed move at the end to defeat an undefeatable opponent. That’s why this was shown to Bran seasons ago now. Even Melisandre knew it.

Only Jon and Dany, the storybook “heroes”, didn’t know it. Which is just fine.

If you really think this isn’t what Martin has always planned, then you must not know his wife’s views on Arya. "

__________________________________________

He makes an excellent point about subverting tropes here, and a lot of fan expectations are built on those.

I rated "The Long Night" a 7/10 --one point more than the two previous episodes. It was good, but not great. It should have been a 10 for all the hype it got.

I've already mentioned my main gripes with it in previous posts, but there's a couple more nitpicks. I don't mind Arya doing the deed but did she have to hog all the glory? At the very least Jon should have slain the Viserion wight, and it looked like he stood up and gave up to be eaten or incinerated just before Arya annihilated the dead:



That's awful.

I also don't care for Sam's placement on the battlefield and his improbable survival. The crypt, or up on the ramparts with a crossbow, is where he belonged. They just wanted him with Edd when he died, but that could have easily been arranged inside instead, where many survivors were retreating anyway.

I did enjoy all of Melisandre's scenes, Tyrion's and Sansa's moment, Lyanna's epic death, Theon's epic death, Jorah's epic death, genuine emotion from Dany, stunning shots like the weapons and the trench lighting up, the Walkers sending in a swirling storm, the switches from intense battle to quieter sections and back again, the mounting tension at the beginning and the suspense in the castle...and really throughout --I was on the edge of my seat for most of this episode!

I was entertained, and that's the whole point of it, so the show still succeeds despite some flaws.

I would have loved to see Jon whack its head off instead of just yell. I also would have loved to see a Jon-NK sword fight, neither has to win it, there can be something happen that separates them at the last second, and Arya can still get her "Rey" kill, but i think that would have been great to see.

[L.M.]

Its still a parallel. that means same

https://www.esquire.com/entertainmen...hrones-theory/

Just going off this quote.

Key part of that quote is "There is a lot of speculation that..." That's speculation from others outside of what he actually wrote in his book. Aegon wasn't described as any kind of a seer or prophet.

No i dont think its ALL about the Others just that i think its the main overarching theme, coming from the books, I agree with you that show obviously isn't following that line as this last episode showed me and has them as the secondary. Like you said they dont even mention Azor Ahai which is baffling because again, that prophecy is repeated over and over in the books.
Just not how i see the books going.
I still enjoyed the episode overall just took some of the wind from my sails for the last 3. Im sure they will still be visually spectacular.

Well, like I said I still see it as character transformation, in any version of the story, though for the books we'll have to wait and see what is written in order to judge anything fairly. As you noted there isn't even a Night King there yet.

We can agree to disagree.

What we do agree on is that this conflict with the Dead ended too soon in the show, which felt anticlimactic to a lot of people.

I would have loved to see Jon whack its head off instead of just yell. I also would have loved to see a Jon-NK sword fight, neither has to win it, there can be something happen that separates them at the last second, and Arya can still get her "Rey" kill, but i think that would have been great to see.

Jon was thwarted and denied glory three times:

1) His diving attack against the Walkers on horseback was foiled by their storm.
2) The Night King raised the recently fallen in a ring around Jon.
3) Viserion was inconveniently placed between Jon and the Godswood and they decided that Jon couldn't and wouldn't manage that threat.

They could have had him as the one to direct dragon fire on the Night King, Jon giving Rhaegal the "dracarys" audible (which would have been cool), or joining Dany on that attack. Even though it didn't work, at least he would have been allowed to make an attempt.

They could have had Viserion move his lurching, probing head over the wall where Jon was hiding so that Jon could thrust his sword up into Viserion's neck! Just like the slaying of Glaurung, father of dragons in Tolkien's Silmarillion by Turin who hid in a narrow ravine and waited til Glaurung slithered above him like so:



Maybe they thought that would be too tropey, but they had opportunities to make more cool scenes to thrill and satisfy us than they opted for, scenes as awesome as Jon's first duel with a White Walker at Hardhome!