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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #2326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua2585 View Post
    There is NO chance that GRRM would have let them deviate THAT far from the intended story arc, so I agree with you here.
    agreed. it wasn't random. She didn't train at the temple of Black and White just for revenge. She is the only fighter who could have won that fight.

  2. #2327
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipablo View Post
    Honestly dont have a big issue with the way it went down, i have some gripes as you quoted but the real issue i have is ending the AotD story arc with 3 episodes left making Cersei and Urine the big bads....ugggg so infuriating. Its really taking the wind out of my sails, ill keep watching but i really am not enthused or excited about it anymore.
    I'm not sure why that bothers you or surprises you. She was why Bran was pushed from the balcony. Tried to have tyrion Killed. Used people to do her bidding and then had them killed. Turned the Mountain into an undead warrior. Killed her husband and all of his offspring. Blew up the Sept with everyone in it causing the death of her other son. Killed Sansa's Dire Wolf, Lady. Made Joffrey. She killed her best friend when she was 11 years old. Had her Hand torture people and conduct experiments on them. The NK was just an ancillary story


    Cersei has ALWAYS been the Big Bad.
    Last edited by broncos SB2010; 04-30-2019 at 03:10 PM.

  3. #2328
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
    I'm not sure why that bothers you or surprises you. She was why Bran was pushed from the balcony. Tried to have tyrion Killed. Used people to do her bidding and then had them killed. Turned the Mountain into an undead warrior. Killed her husband and all of his offspring. Blew up the Sept with everyone in it causing the death of her other son. Killed Sansa's Dire Wolf, Lady. Made Joffrey. She killed her best friend when she was 11 years old. Had her Hand torture people and conduct experiments on them. The NK was just an ancillary story


    Cersei has ALWAYS been the Big Bad.
    You say the NK was ancillary, i say the opposite. thats why it bothers me.

    To me, the AoTD is the main driving force of the story. Rewatch the very first episode of the show, is it Cersei?

    Cersei is one of many going for the throne, and as long as there is a throne there will always be someone trying to take it. There is only one Magical force trying to end the world.

    For me, a magical force trying to end the world>crazy queen and her pirate boyfriend

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  4. #2329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua2585 View Post
    There is NO chance that GRRM would have let them deviate THAT far from the intended story arc, so I agree with you here.
    Except there is no NK in the books, he has The Great Other but hasn't really personified him, only in prophecy. So they already are way off

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  5. #2330
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    Finally got around to watching the last episode and I loved it. My wife and I were on the edges of our seats during most of the battle, hoping that our favorite characters would make it out.

  6. #2331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freestyle View Post
    Its gonna take a little bit to digest this episode

    Arya makes sense in what her role has been. Really surprised the Night King went out like this. He was supposed to be a larger villian than Cersei.
    The greater threat, for sure, but contrast the quantity of lines between the two (zero for him, right), total screen time between the two, total evil deeds and schemes between the two. The show has primarily been a human drama with Cersei in the middle of it much moreso than a zombie apocalypse. The latter was always a story device, a background element to add a layer of tension to everything.

    Taking the Dothraki and charging in against a superior foe in pitch black was idiotic. Though Jon and Dany's plan to ambush the Night King's dragon falling apart when Dany witnesses her beloved dothraki fall makes sense. It was a way to advance the plot but they didnt do it in the best way.
    Completely agree. D&D value spectacle over everything else, we've seen it time and time again these past few seasons, cool pictures that don't make sense.

    The defensive plan was poor too. I would have had several rings of outer defenses, one being a deep moat so that troops with long, dragonglass pikes could poke the dead across from them at their liesure. The base of the fortress walls would also be coated with pitch which could be ignited, and defenders would have been pouring burning oil from the ramparts.

    It was basically 90 min of the North getting their butts kicked. I'm pretty sure there's no army left either. We'll see next week.
    Like Battle of the Bastards --stupid charge, butts kicked, Knights of the Vale save them from total annihilation at the last moment. Arya was the Vale Knights this time.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  7. #2332
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzolve View Post
    I can't imagine having to tie up loose ends writing for this show - chasing after George RR Martin's genius ........... so with that I have to give them slack. There probably is no perfect way to do this season.......... except have GRRM write it but that'd take 10 years :p

    Before I can digest this thing - I have to regurgitate my experience and feelings...

    My questions:
    1.What was Bran doing all episode?
    2. We need more explanation about the Night King and his motivations. Last ep wasn't enough.
    3. Did Ghost survive?
    4. Why did Theon Suicide by Cop?
    5. Why did Mellisandra suicide?
    6. Why does this show love to kill children?
    7. Who all survived? lol
    8. Did Jon's dragon survive?
    9. When the N-King brought the dead back - did that mean Dragon glass didn't mean anything or all those dead were killed with reg weaps. Maybe they were all the living side - killed and reanimated? Sure was a lot

    10.What if -the children of the forest factor back into the outcome of this series? Could the dead- not quite be dead? Can we rest assured that part of GOT is over with?
    1. Nothing, and warging into Ravens was pointless too -can they see at night? Maybe owls would have been better. He could have warged Ghost -I would have liked that better, especially if Ghost was inside not outside.
    2. Se6ep5 "The Door" told us everything we need to know. The Night King was just one of the First Men captured by the Children and converted into a weapon which replicates itself and reanimates corpses into more weapons. It's a simple anti-man program which ran amok, like Agent Smith in the Matrix.
    3. Yes, amazingly, as he shouldn't have survived considering what he ran into, but he was spotted briefly in the preview to ep4.
    4. What else was left for him to do at that point? It completes his redemption arc, predictably.
    5. Because her purpose was this struggle against the Night, the Dead as was spelled out by her very first appearance in the show, se2ep1 "The Night Lands" when she articulated the prophecy on the beach as they burned idols of the Seven. With that resolved, and her being very old and tired, it seemed the natural conclusion for her character, and very predictable since se6ep1 "The Red Woman" when we saw how ancient she was without her glamor.
    6. This show kills everybody indiscriminately.
    7. Who all died is easier to answer: Edd, Beric, Jorah, Lyanna, Melisandre, Theon. No main characters which is crazy. Sam surviving on the battlefield (where he shouldn't have been placed at all) is the most ludicrous of survivals.
    8. Yes, see preview for ep 4
    9. No, he only raised the recently fallen defenders of Winterfell -that was explicitly noted by D&D on the little "Inside..." documentary. It was a lot, because a lot died, tens of thousands were outside the fortress, like all the Dothraki who died in the stupid charge.
    10. A lot of people are speculating an holding out hope that it isn't reeeally over. I think that's denial. I also believe that the last of the Children perished defending the lair of the 3ER.
    Last edited by L.M.; 05-02-2019 at 10:16 AM.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  8. #2333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spice 1 View Post
    Melisandre went out with a bang. Damn. I get why she checked out. Her entire purpose was serving the LoL, and with the Night King gone, her task was met. I think Davos was gunna pull the trigger anyway.

    All in all, I loved the episode. Some stuff didn't make sense. The initial Dothraki (cavalry) charge was sacrificial to a degree. They could've drawn them in and softened them up with arty first. Used the standing army to engage, and then flank them with the Dothraki (cavalry). This kind of stuff goes out the window for dramatic effect though. Also, definitely should've been dropping oil and fire on them when they were scaling the walls. They obviously had some in the pit, and normally you would drop it on them when they try to breach. Again though, dramatic effect.

    Can't speak for everybody, but I had a blast watching this.
    Pretty much. Cavalry is good against the flanks or penetrating into the rear, especially if archers and artillery are there in a classic, medieval formation. Stannis' army, though outnumbered, hit the Wildlings on the flanks to great effect. Cavalry is good in a straight on attack to overrun an opponent if you've caught them by surprise, and/or you outnumber them -like the Boltons did to Stannis in front of Winterfell.

    But I think there is a serious problem with using them at all against the Dead, an opponent that doesn't disperse, and one that just clusters and tears any living thing to bits, including horses. They almost got Drogon in the same way. There are also White Walkers in reserve who are immune to flame and can shatter steel swords. Jon and Edd know all these things but still apparently authorized this cavalry charge because it would look cool in the writer's opinion.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  9. #2334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua2585 View Post
    For most of the episode I didn't have an issue seeing things, but there were a couple scenes where I struggled. I definitely think it's a "quality of TV" thing.

    I was originally upset at how quickly the NK was dispatched, but when I sat and thought about it: This episode was the pinnacle of almost 6 seasons where the NK was this far away threat and kind of a side story to the drama and story arcs of all the characters south of the wall.

    His impact on the story, even now, is huge... Dany lost all of her Dothraki (which is what Jaime explained to Cersei one of the biggest threats), and almost all of Unsullied. The North was decimated. Very few survived. Outside of a Dragon, Dany won't stand much of a chance. Not sure how long it took everything to conspire, but no doubt it was enough time for Cersei to mass-produce her ballista and mount a significant air defense on the walls of Kings Landing. Even for Drogon (and Rhaegal if he's still alive) it would be rather suicidal.

    ALSO- Bran being gone for most of the episode will definitely be explained. Remember, he not only can worg into animals but can go into the past (and even interact with it). I'm thinking he may have been going back, reviewing all the different scenarios and how they may win in the end. Possibly changing things in the battle, etc.
    Perhaps so, but there's still that vision of a shadow flying over King's Landing which is yet to come to fruition.

    Bran was warged into Ravens trying to locate the Night King.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  10. #2335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freestyle View Post
    I think a lot of it had to have been those streaming. I have a good Sony 4k and finally got around to upgrading my home theater, got great sound, spent the week watching 4k movies and changing the settings... and I got black pixelated blobs throughout the episode . I streamed it via HBO streaming app. I will try again later this week when there shouldn't be so much traffic.

    Disappointed because the Battle for Helms Deep looked a lot better.
    That's the best explanation going around -- heavy compression reducing some scenes into pixellated, dark blobs -- more the fault of the middleman delivery system.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  11. #2336
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipablo View Post
    You mean how she LITERALLY jumped out of nowhere? how did she get that high where did she come from? how did she get out of a barricaded room? how did she get past the dead when she had a tough time of it in the library? how did she get past the WW? how did the NK not sense her until the last second when he IMMEDIATELY sensed Jon on the battlefield?

    All sorts of fail in my eyes...
    As SB2010 said, her assassin's training of stealth, the same way she avoided the wights in the library.

    She didn't leave the Hall the same way she came in, and obviously the part of the castle connected to the Godswood enclosure wasn't completely overrun with wights, and if there were any wandering around, she evaded them with stealth skills. Additionally, she grew up in Winterfell and knows the castle like the back of her hand. She moved into position for an aerial leap by climbing another tree in the enclosure or leaping from the ramparts which surround it (or leaping from the ramparts to a tree). Not so hard to conceive at all when you consider her knowledge, skills, and the structural layout of the place.

    The NK homed in on Jon from a distance, after observing the battlefield. That's not a comparable situation at all. Yet props to his Spidey sense intuition for sensing her attack and quickly responding to it!
    Last edited by L.M.; 05-02-2019 at 11:37 AM.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  12. #2337
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    Quote Originally Posted by JT24Champ View Post
    Found this on reddit. I like this. I always thought BRAN as 3ER was also lord of light after he yelled at his dad and his dad heard him in the flashback.
    - https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthron...ght_theory_is/
    Eh, I think that this one goes too far into overly-elaborate tinfoil theory. Ever since it was revealed Bran could affect the past (through Hodor, his dad hears him at ToJ), folks have gone bananas with these theories.

    This one assumes that the cosmology of the religion of the Red God is "true" which it may not be, not completely anyway, but also seems to overlook parts of it. The Prince That Was Promised, ostensibly the reincarnation of Azor Ahai, is the avatar of the Red God, the polar opposite of the Great Other (or his icy avatar). All of this prophecy was probably just a red herring, setting up Jon or Dany as the One foretold, but then Arya ends the threat, subverting expectations with this twist.

    Bran/3ER is something else entirely with a different function, a repository of knowledge and memory with warg ability for reconnaissance. Narratively, this is a device for exposition, information, to help with reveals (like R+L=J) and flashbacks, like to the origin of the Night King --which was just the Children's weapon gone awry, moreso than a mystical champion of an evil god.
    Last edited by L.M.; 05-02-2019 at 11:35 AM.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  13. #2338
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipablo View Post
    Honestly dont have a big issue with the way it went down, i have some gripes as you quoted but the real issue i have is ending the AotD story arc with 3 episodes left making Cersei and Urine the big bads....ugggg so infuriating. Its really taking the wind out of my sails, ill keep watching but i really am not enthused or excited about it anymore.
    I hear your frustration and I at least partially agree with you, that it ended too quickly, too soon.

    "The Great War"....one battle and a few ambushes (Hardhome, Eastwatch, Last Hearth) hardly makes a war, certainly not a "great" one. The dead didn't conquer any of the Seven Kingdoms, and were defeated at the first real bastion of resistance, with no main characters lost. Though the heroes narrowly and miraculously won, it's still an anti-climactic finish to an eight-season background arc where the gravity of the threat was really built up and hyped up alot over the course of the series. I really felt that Winterfell should have been lost, that survivors use an escape tunnel already referenced in Se2, and that this conflict should have been resolved in #4 or #5.

    The episode was called "The Long Night", but the historians at the Citadel will write it up as "The Very Very Very Short Night".
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  14. #2339
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipablo View Post
    You say the NK was ancillary, i say the opposite. thats why it bothers me.

    To me, the AoTD is the main driving force of the story. Rewatch the very first episode of the show, is it Cersei?

    Cersei is one of many going for the throne, and as long as there is a throne there will always be someone trying to take it. There is only one Magical force trying to end the world.

    For me, a magical force trying to end the world>crazy queen and her pirate boyfriend
    We didn't see the Night King until Season 4, briefly when he transformed a Craster boy. He has a total of eight brief scenes in this series. Even if you add up all wight and White Walker scenes with his, comparatively, it doesn't amount to much screentime at all.

    The Lannisters (sans Tyrion, and now sans Jaime too) have been the villains with all the plots, lines, the most scenes etc. since the first episode, when Jaime pushed Bran out the window. Cersei is just the last surviving rotten apple, and the worst of them...even more than Joffrey, IMO because she was responsible for ensuring his ascent to power, and he nothing to match the detonation of the Sept either.

    Quote Originally Posted by dipablo View Post
    Except there is no NK in the books, he has The Great Other but hasn't really personified him, only in prophecy. So they already are way off
    There's a legendary figure called the "Night's King" in the books, a different character from the one in the show, but GRRM may conflate him with the Great Other later, who knows.

    D&D met with GRRM in Santa Fe a few years ago when they realized that the TV series was going to overtake the book series and got all the major plot points, story beats, and main character resolutions from him. Additionally, just before the Season 8 premiere, Martin told 60 Minutes that D&D's ending won't be much different than his books on the big stuff.

    I'm sure that The Winds of Winter will be completed and released soon which should tell us if there's some kind of Night King forthcoming in his story. Considering the above, I expect there is. Of course, I do not think that the final book will be completed in GRRM's lifetime to compare endings. We'll probably have to wait for another author to work with his notes and unfinished manuscript the same way Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series was finished posthumously by Brandon Sanderson. So in fifteen or twenty years, maybe?
    Last edited by L.M.; 05-02-2019 at 12:12 PM.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  15. #2340
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.M. View Post
    The greater threat, for sure, but contrast the quantity of lines between the two (zero for him, right), total screen time between the two, total evil deeds and schemes between the two. The show has primarily been a human drama with Cersei in the middle of it much moreso than a zombie apocalypse. The latter was always a story device, a background element to add a layer of tension to everything.
    Anything that had to do with Bran, the 3ER raven, Wildlings, Melisandra, the Nights Watch is part of the NK.

    Google has Cersei at 3h 56 min screen time. Jon Snow is at 5h 38 mins. Jons entire arc is about the WW or NK.

    Most of Cersei's doings were driven by Tywin, not her. It wasn't until Tywin died and Tyrion fled that she did anything on her own. And since she has done nothing but screw things up. I am unsure how someone with literally 0 claim to the throne can be considered the top bad. Dorne will not support her, the Reach will not after she killed the Tyrells, The Vale already sided with the north and guess what the riverlands will do? It laughable to think with only sellswords and pirates that she has a chance.

    The only real issue left to solve is between Jon and Dany, who wins the claim.Yawn.

    KL and the IT should have been dealt with first with those remaining banding together to stop the NK to save the realm.

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