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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by assassin216 View Post
    Its not in the books...so I don't understand why they did it,but in their defense they did came out and say that they did a poor job executing it that scene from the books.....


    I know one thing,GRRM wasn't thrilled about it though,from what I read....
    Here's what GRRM had to say about it. Doesn't seem too upset to me and many things he mentions are things that I brought up yesterday (but I see that my post has been deleted).

    Emphasis mine:

    ---
    “I think the “butterfly effect” that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey’s death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

    The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other’s company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that’s just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

    Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime’s POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don’t know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

    If the show had retained some of Cersei’s dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression — but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

    That’s really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing… but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.”

    ---

    "disturbed people for the wrong reasons" Ha, ha... too funny, George!

    Start asking yourself what those reasons might be and it's easy to see how this was a rather trivial matter that some people overreacted to. Cooler heads prevailed (as they should have) even though some tried to twist GRRM's words to support their anti-show case. Lame!

    What I see is, once again, GRRM managing to subvert a common fantasy trope, but he did it this time without lifting a finger - allowing his minions (Weiss & Benioff) to do it for him.
    Winter is Coming!

  2. #782
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    I just wrote about 3 pages worth of analysis/response, and I’ve decided to not post it. I hate to truncate my thoughts, but it was a full disclosure; just too spoilery, too redundant, too much rape talk, ending in a slew of rhetorical questions… Just too much... UGH. This post will be far from short, but I do want to address a few things.

    Something I’ve noticed from the beginning is that those that have the most problems with the show are those that have yet to fully accept the fact that the show and the books are two separate entities. I’ve offered that to some of my more purist friends and family and it has made a world of difference. For some, I realize, it’s hard to do. It’s fairly hard for me to do sometimes. Some aspects of this show will never harmonize with the books, and in my opinion, waiting for that to happen is setting one’s self up for disappointment. It’s not so much about being anti-show as it is about being too pro-book – if that makes sense. Each to his own, though, I suppose.

    The trope I was thinking about is “evil knight to good knight over night”, by the way, but I don’t want to get into that now. Those that have made Jaime into some sort of shining white knight in their minds only have themselves to blame. But, I’ve realized that this decision by the show makers was as much about Cersei’s character arc as it was about Jaime’s. No one seems to be talking about it, but I think it’s just as important. Let’s say they decided to be truer to the book and have Cersei clearly consent in that scene. In a previous episode she undoubtedly rejects his advances when they were all alone in a private chamber, yet somehow we’re supposed to believe she’s going to be willing when they’re in the holiest of holies in all of Westeros while in front of the corpse of their freshly murdered child? That doesn’t make sense to me and likely didn’t to the show runners either. It made sense in the books because that’s the first time they’ve seen each other in nearly 2 years. It also made more sense in the book because the show has been rather kind to Cersei as far as her mental state and likability are concerned.

    There’s something else that I was confused about. I wondered how out of all the people around me (almost everyone I know is into this story one way or another) not a single one of them had a problem with that scene. (I actually spent a few hours last night calling and talking to people just to be sure.) They felt it was not only in character for show!Jaime, but considered it no more significant than any other change. My show-watching-only brother wasn’t even sure what I was talking about at first. Sure, it was shocking, but the scene is supposed to be shocking whether you’re getting from the books or the show. But yet the internet was abuzz about that scene seemingly right away. And not just in social media. There were full articles from major publications almost immediately after the show aired. Even one of the most extreme purists in the ASOIAF community had one of the most measured, intelligent responses to the scene that I’ve seen. He actually liked it!!! Huh? I had to ask myself, “What in the hell is going on here?”

    And then it dawned on me. Many media types had advanced viewing of the first 3 episodes of this season. They’ve been sitting on these articles for weeks, refining them, and knowing they had a gold mine of controversy just waiting to be unleashed. And the fans didn’t disappoint when the time came. By the time the review shows aired on Monday morning there were already pages and pages of discussion in comments sections on these articles and on the various fan sites. HBO waits a bit and then throws out all of their (obviously pre-written) responses to the controversy. GRRM then adds his take. This, of course, causes more buzz which feeds the various sides of the argument and the whole thing snowballs into something much bigger than what it is probably.

    …and HBO, and the show runners, and GRRM, and the fan sites, and the cable companies all rubbed their little hands together and laughed.

    Oh, and I miss Strong Belwas.

    Winter is Coming!

  3. #783
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    @Mount Yes, I agree in some sense that media outlets are taking advantage on the current focus of rape in our society. Hell, I just read a times article about charges being pressed for virtual rape in minecraft. To me the controversy does almost seem invented to garner page clicks.

    That said, the scene did seem odd to me as I have stated. To me it was a major plot point, and the reactions from the two characters from the next episode will reshape this whole debate IMO(and could define the whole season IMO). However, I seem to be the minority. I was talking with my father about the show a day after it aired, and he had all but forgotten it. Although in a show where cannibalism and incest among other social taboos are all but cannon; Im not really surprised.

    All in all, I do see it being overblown. Not that rape isnt a serious issue, but in terms of the show it's not. That said, I still believe it merits discussion, as a major plot point.


    FYI I havent read the books

  4. #784
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    Great post M-n-G. I completely agree.

  5. #785
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    I know the man hasn't finished the books & I love the show. However I want some damn redemption for the Stark's, When the storm comes down so to speak I want to see John snow sitting on the Iron Throne!!!!! I also so want to see the man with the many faces who helped the Stark girl as the Hound says again......
    Last edited by ELWAY421; 04-26-2014 at 03:14 PM.
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  6. #786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mount-n-Groan View Post

    The trope I was thinking about is “evil knight to good knight over night”, by the way, but I don’t want to get into that now. Those that have made Jaime into some sort of shining white knight in their minds only have themselves to blame. But, I’ve realized that this decision by the show makers was as much about Cersei’s character arc as it was about Jaime’s. No one seems to be talking about it, but I think it’s just as important. Let’s say they decided to be truer to the book and have Cersei clearly consent in that scene. In a previous episode she undoubtedly rejects his advances when they were all alone in a private chamber, yet somehow we’re supposed to believe she’s going to be willing when they’re in the holiest of holies in all of Westeros while in front of the corpse of their freshly murdered child? That doesn’t make sense to me and likely didn’t to the show runners either. It made sense in the books because that’s the first time they’ve seen each other in nearly 2 years. It also made more sense in the book because the show has been rather kind to Cersei as far as her mental state and likability are concerned.
    I'll add something from a non book reader's perspective, since I'm incapable of bringing any bias into the discussion. Just watching the show, it is clear that Jaime indeed has redeeming qualities, and strives to be righteous. It is also clear that he has inherent flaws that are both circumstantial and of his own doing (albeit unwittingly). This, particularly when it comes to Cersei. This is where he is most vulnerable to the temptation for betraying his own virtue. In that sense, the scene in question plays out fine.

    For the show watchers, I think the best scene to be used as an example of Jaimie's character is the scene in the second season where he is being confronted by Catelyn Stark while in captivity. I believe this is the scene where he explains the conflict between morals, laws, and loyalties as a knight. I really think it's the first glimpse we get into the burden he's been dealing with.

  7. #787
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    Bought the boxed set of seasons 1-3 this week and am now 10% more clued up than I was a few days ago, having watched the first three eps.

    Adopted Bronco - Emmanuel Sanders

  8. #788
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    Spoiler Warning up to week 4 below

    I'm glad they revealed who the culprits of Joffrey's untimely passing are. I'm not sure how long I could go without sneaking a peek. So it appears, Lady O'leena made a new acquaintance in Petyr Baelish. And he took care of the logistics - or at least simply conspired to off Joffrey.

    Brienne the most willful character on this show is on a new quest. This could rendezvous in some confrontation with Petyr Baelish somehow.

    I'm glad those who remain of the Starks are all on a trajectory of reuinting. Sansa is headed to see her aunt. And that's where Arya is headed. Those 2 may end up seeing each other again. Maybe Brienne ends up here for a big party.

    And Jon Snow is currently on his way to Craster's, which is where Bran is being held. Locke and Snow likely will have a fight to determine what becomes of Bran. I imagine Locke's job is to take Bran and bro dead or alive to finish off Red Wedding.

    Just wait till Cercei finds out Margaery is visiting Tommen in secret! Think she's postal over Tyrion? I bet she goes thermonuclear. Cercei's had a tough life - and it's not going to get better if our indicators are of any indication.

    I'm really digging Kingslayer's arc right now. I know he just finished raping his sister n all - and there's no mitigating the lowness of the act, but to be honest -since it was Cercei - I'm willing to let that slide. Before you judge me please take into consideration I can't begin to empathize with a victim of such a horror. Fortunately, I'm not the object of some sicko's desire nor do I desire to --so take that for what it's worth.

    Jamie and Brienne have a respect for each other that is very deep. They have more in common than does Jamie and Cercei - or maybe any other woman he's ever taken a second glance at. It was so cool to see him give the gifts to Brienne. There couldn't have been better gifts to give her. As grateful as she appeared I almost wished she even showed a little more 'jaw drop'. I mean, he gave her a frigging Valerian Steel sword! His best sword and a family heirloom. You all do understand the weight of such a gift - right. The Lannisters only have 3 swords of such quality throughout their entire family tree. It's basically a priceless item that even the utterly wealthy Lannisters cannot just replace.

    Jaimie seems to be sick of being called - man without honor. Or Kingslayer etc. He very much respects Brienne for her honor, character, braverry, valor, loyalty, honesty, virtue etc. Brienne and Jaimie have the common goal of taking care of Sansa which ironically is exactly what the rest of his family (minus Tyrion) doesn't want. I think Jamie himself is probably getting sick of Cercei. I very much enjoyed seeing him improving with his sparring partner and seeing him talk with his Brother in prison. Jaimie is Tyrion's best hope at keeping his head. And I think Jaimie just might do all that he can to make sure Tyrion gets a fair trial at least.

    /salute Jaimie Lannister

    I know next week I could be betrayed. That's what makes Game of Thrones shocking sometimes. So I'll surf the waves of the series and enjoy pulling for Jaimie while I can anyway.
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  9. #789
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    Jaws: Welcome to the cult! Enjoy!

    SM: Yes, that was something extra, and I have to admit it's pretty exciting.

    dizzolve: Great recap! They've done an excellent job with the Jaime/Brienne storyline, imo.

    There was SO much that went on in that episode, and until I have the time to watch it again and mull over my thoughts I have just one thing to say...

    SER POUNCE!!!!

    Winter is Coming!

  10. #790
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    I'm just beginning to go over some of the comments, recaps, etc., but it seems that the Sullied (book readers) enjoyed this episode more than the Unsullied (non-book readers).

    The irony? This episode had more deviation from the books than just about any episode yet. It appears that the Sullied got a little taste of what it's like to be Unsullied... and they liked it.
    Winter is Coming!

  11. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mount-n-Groan View Post
    I'm just beginning to go over some of the comments, recaps, etc., but it seems that the Sullied (book readers) enjoyed this episode more than the Unsullied (non-book readers).

    The irony? This episode had more deviation from the books than just about any episode yet. It appears that the Sullied got a little taste of what it's like to be Unsullied... and they liked it.
    I loved the episode. I think everything this season has been exciting, every plot line has a lot going on with it, and there's no "boring" story lines right now. I expect this season to finish really strong, and it looks like Seasons 5 & 6 could be better comparatively to season 4 than I thought they might be initially.
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  12. #792
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    What sucks is that I was able to watch this series on a total binge because I never followed it in real time... Until now...

    The wait every week with these cliff hangers is killing me!!!!

    And I never did finish the first book because I never made time for them... Maybe I will give it a glance again?

  13. #793
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    Quote Originally Posted by xX-Bronco-Xx View Post
    What sucks is that I was able to watch this series on a total binge because I never followed it in real time... Until now...

    The wait every week with these cliff hangers is killing me!!!!

    And I never did finish the first book because I never made time for them... Maybe I will give it a glance again?
    Ahh, the perils of modern TV! And yes, you should read the books!

    I'm very interested to see where the show writers take some of the story arcs right now, because they are veering pretty hard of course from what the books laid out. I mean, it's nothing that's really bothering me, but it's weird to see some of the characters going through different things than I expected them to...

  14. #794
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    I did enjoy the episode but I'm wondering just how far away from the book series they are going to head. It's entertaining regardless. I have a good enough time watching it when I know what is going to happen, so we'll see what happens if they change it completely.

    2013 Adopted Bronco - Duke Ihenacho

  15. #795
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    Quote Originally Posted by xX-Bronco-Xx View Post
    What sucks is that I was able to watch this series on a total binge because I never followed it in real time... Until now...

    The wait every week with these cliff hangers is killing me!!!!

    And I never did finish the first book because I never made time for them... Maybe I will give it a glance again?
    Having just watched series 1 and zipping through that, I know what you mean!

    Adopted Bronco - Emmanuel Sanders

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