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  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravage!!!
    How can we really say that Elway's teams were better? Where were they better? This is the chicken-and-the-egg. Did Elway make the receivers appear better, or did the receivers make Elway look better? Jake had good receivers...but could they have been better if Jake was better? We don't know. Could the running game in Arizona be better if teams were more threatened by the pass? Isn't it VERY possible that the running game of a Sammy Winder was better than the back simply because the defenses were so threatened of John? Howie Long will go on and on about how they would spend the ENTIRE week on ONE thing when playing the Broncos....s topping Elway. They didn't worry about the receivers... they didn't worry about the running game.. they didn't worry about any other player on the offense......they COMPLETELY worked the week of practice stopping Elway. Having machines throw balls so that they could mimic the volocity of the passes crossing the middle... working on reaction time to tip balls. Do they do that for Plummer? Do you think they have to work an ENTIRE week to stop a stronger arm? Hardly.

    ONE great player can have a domino effect of players across the field. WRs can get open on the short routes because the defenders know that elway can beat them deep. The WRs can get open on deep routs because the receivers know that Elway can fire the ball faster on the short routes, where they can't get to. Defensive backs would have to play closer.. to help against Elway running the ball. The backside Corner couldn't sneak towards the middle of the field when the action went away..because he could throw the ball across the field... thus opening up the middle. Maybe the lineman wouldn't have to hold their blocks as long, because John didn't have to have as deep as a drop as Plummer does (Marino had a quick release, thus limiting sacks...doesn't hat help the lineman?). Since the passing game is wide open.. doesn't that help the running backs?

    My point is simple. You can take two players and put them on the exact same team. One player being average, the other being great. The great player is not only going to play better.. adn BE bettter.... but he's also going to RAISE the level of play around him. A Great player is great because of how they raisse the level of their teammates. That is one of the intangibles that so many try to explain.
    so does that mean elway only won the SB because Terrell Davis' domino effect? Elway sure didnt win one without him......

    I get what you're saying, but i think jake deserves more credit for what he did in Arizona, no i dont think teams game planned specifically for Jake, maybe thats why he has all those comeback victories in the 4th quarter ( i believe he had more than 20 in arizona). That was very elway like even before he came to denver.

    And Jake had a horrible o-line, they wouldnt have nicknamed him the snake if he wasnt escaping sacks all the time.

    and if you put Elway on this team we have now, you really think he would have 130 QB rating every year? Cause if not, and he had maybe 95 he would have to be similar to Plummer's QB rating his last three years, which means Plummer IS playing "close" to Elway's level.
    Last edited by Return of Lava; 05-04-2006 at 11:32 PM.
    dont let him pull dat move on ya, dont let him pull that move.......................oh no dats da move! TOUCHDOWN!!!

    I tried to warn ya.

  2. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Return of Lava
    so does that mean elway only won the SB because Terrell Davis' domino effect? Elway sure didnt win one without him......

    I get what you're saying, but i think jake deserves more credit for what he did in Arizona, no i dont think teams game planned specifically for Jake, maybe thats why he has all those comeback victories in the 4th quarter ( i believe he had more than 20 in arizona). That was very elway like even before he came to denver.

    And Jake had a horrible o-line, they wouldnt have nicknamed him the snake if he wasnt escaping sacks all the time.

    and if you put Elway on this team we have now, you really think he would have 130 QB rating every year? Cause if not, and he had maybe 95 he would have to be similar to Plummer's QB rating his last three years, which means Plummer IS playing "close" to Elway's level.
    Ummm . . . Jake got that nickname in college, Lava.

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  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Return of Lava
    so does that mean elway only won the SB because Terrell Davis' domino effect? Elway sure didnt win one without him......

    I get what you're saying, but i think jake deserves more credit for what he did in Arizona, no i dont think teams game planned specifically for Jake, maybe thats why he has all those comeback victories in the 4th quarter ( i believe he had more than 20 in arizona). That was very elway like even before he came to denver.

    And Jake had a horrible o-line, they wouldnt have nicknamed him the snake if he wasnt escaping sacks all the time.

    and if you put Elway on this team we have now, you really think he would have 130 QB rating every year? Cause if not, and he had maybe 95 he would have to be similar to Plummer's QB rating his last three years, which means Plummer IS playing "close" to Elway's level.
    He was nicknamed the Snake because in college he was a heck of a scrambling qb, a scrambling qb that could throw TD's, he was hard to defend, so the defenses would get snake bit.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

  4. #379
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    Cool plummer/ Elway

    You Guys must be nuts plummer is good but he is not even close too Elway ,
    when Cutler gets a few years under his belt he will be more like Elway than Jake .... Don't get me wrong Jake is a Great QB at what he does Eway did everything real good not only a few things Mike puts him in the situations that he excelled at, with Elway It did not matter....

  5. #380
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    Cool plummer/ Elway

    You Guys must be nuts plummer is good but he is not even close too Elway ,
    when Cutler gets a few years under his belt he will be more like Elway than Jake .... Don't get me wrong Jake is a Great QB at what he does Eway did everything real good not only a few things Mike puts him in the situations that he excelled at, with Elway It did not matter....

  6. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Return of Lava
    so does that mean elway only won the SB because Terrell Davis' domino effect? Elway sure didnt win one without him......

    I get what you're saying, but i think jake deserves more credit for what he did in Arizona, no i dont think teams game planned specifically for Jake, maybe thats why he has all those comeback victories in the 4th quarter ( i believe he had more than 20 in arizona). That was very elway like even before he came to denver.

    And Jake had a horrible o-line, they wouldnt have nicknamed him the snake if he wasnt escaping sacks all the time.

    and if you put Elway on this team we have now, you really think he would have 130 QB rating every year? Cause if not, and he had maybe 95 he would have to be similar to Plummer's QB rating his last three years, which means Plummer IS playing "close" to Elway's level.
    No one said jake couldn't run...but he was named the snake LONG before he came to Arizona.

    Its not like Jake didn't have a defense to support him as well. He had two VERY good DL (Simeon Rice & Eric Swann) and two great corners (one that could go to the HoF) in Corey Chavous and Aeneas Williams.

    If you think having a trio of WRs like David Boston, Rob Moore, and Frank Sanders was something to sneeze at...then you have to do more research. If you think that having a FB in Larry Centers was something that hindered Jake, then I think you need to see the records set by him (he was catching 100 passes a season before Jake was drafted, so it wasn't Jake that made him a valuable threat. In fact, Center's numbers went from 100+ catches in '97 when Jake was drafted, to just 30 the first year Jake started).

    So trying to convince me that Jake was surrounded by lesser talent than Elway was just doesn't hold water.

    Do I think Elway would have 130 QB rating? No. But do I feel that if we had Elway going into the play-offs THIS year... could Elway have taken this team to the Super Bowl... absolutely. You bring up QB rating to compare LEVEL of QB play? Really? Because.. I do believe that Steve Bono broke some of Montana's QB rating records when he started for KC? You trying to tell me Bono is the same QB that Montana is? I think the immobile Bono has one of the longest runs for TD by a QB (although Im' sure the addition of Vick has lowered the number down the list).. you trying to say that Steve Bono is a better scrambler than all the great running QBs?

    Stats look pretty on paper. But they don't tell how a QB PLAYS on the field. Thats why comparing stats just doesn't cut it when comparing to players. Thats why anyone that really WATCHED great players will never compare Plummer with any great QB. I won't even say don't compare him to Elway.. because there really is none. I'm saying don't compare Jake to ANY great QB. There is just MORE to the comparisons than what the numbers on a sheet of paper say.

    Also. Jake has never been voted to the pro-bowl team. He's gone to hawaii twice... both times as an alternate. This year, he was the alternate to the alternate....going only after two people ahead of him couldn't make the trip and cancelled. If stats on paper mean something to you, then how does that 0 look?
    Last edited by Ravage!!!; 05-05-2006 at 12:14 AM.

  7. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravage!!!
    No one said jake couldn't run...but he was named the snake LONG before he came to Arizona.

    Its not like Jake didn't have a defense to support him as well. He had two VERY good DL (Simeon Rice & Eric Swann) and two great corners (one that could go to the HoF) in Corey Chavous and Aeneas Williams.

    If you think having a trio of WRs like David Boston, Rob Moore, and Frank Sanders was something to sneeze at...then you have to do more research. If you think that having a FB in Larry Centers was something that hindered Jake, then I think you need to see the records set by him (he was catching 100 passes a season before Jake was drafted, so it wasn't Jake that made him a valuable threat. In fact, Center's numbers went from 100+ catches in '97 when Jake was drafted, to just 30 the first year Jake started).

    So trying to convince me that Jake was surrounded by lesser talent than Elway was just doesn't hold water.

    Do I think Elway would have 130 QB rating? No. But do I feel that if we had Elway going into the play-offs THIS year... could Elway have taken this team to the Super Bowl... absolutely. You bring up QB rating to compare LEVEL of QB play? Really? Because.. I do believe that Steve Bono broke some of Montana's QB rating records when he started for KC? You trying to tell me Bono is the same QB that Montana is? I think the immobile Bono has one of the longest runs for TD by a QB (although Im' sure the addition of Vick has lowered the number down the list).. you trying to say that Steve Bono is a better scrambler than all the great running QBs?

    Stats look pretty on paper. But they don't tell how a QB PLAYS on the field. Thats why comparing stats just doesn't cut it when comparing to players. Thats why anyone that really WATCHED great players will never compare Plummer with any great QB. I won't even say don't compare him to Elway.. because there really is none. I'm saying don't compare Jake to ANY great QB. There is just MORE to the comparisons than what the numbers on a sheet of paper say.
    Yes, Jake had a fantastic supporting cast.

    That's why the Cardinals had those perennial winning records and playoff appearances.

    BTW, Larry Centers had 54 receptions in 1997 and 69 in 1998. What year were you thinking was Jake's first?

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    Last edited by topscribe; 05-05-2006 at 12:19 AM.

  8. #383
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    Jake does pretty well when we're ahead but with John, being behind just meant he wasn't warmed up yet.

  9. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkyFlash1
    Jake does pretty well when we're ahead but with John, being behind just meant he wasn't warmed up yet.
    Jake has 22 or so come from behind victories.

    -----

  10. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javalon
    Sure, if Jake had been in this current system, he'd be considered in a different light. But by that same virtue, if Elway had been in this same system his entire career, Marino wouldn't have his name in the record book.

    Man, I hate threads like this because I don't want to talk negatively about Plummer. But when comparing him to Elway, that's kind of what just naturally happens. Jake is a fine QB is his own right; I'm happy enough with him on the Broncos that I wish we hadn't drafted Cutler and instead drafted for more current needs. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't 100% prefer Elway if he could find the fountain of youth somewhere.
    Exactly!!! That's what I constantly tell people. If early in his career Elway had a system like this, or an O-line like Miami's in most of Marino's career, he would own all the records.
    The human body has two ends on it: one to create with and one to sit on. Sometimes people get their ends reversed. When this happens they need a kick in the seat of the pants. --- Theodore Roosevelt


  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe
    Who are the "Jake people," Rap? That is, specifically who have been saying Jake is good as Elway?

    -----
    start with the person who made the thread and those who believe it...as for jake people ....i would say anyone who blindly believes jake is anything but a average qb....and certainly those who believ because jake has comparable numbers for a couple years he is the same quality as elway

    the title is....jake is as good as elway....so i dont think a smart guy like you needs me to explain it to you
    Last edited by arapaho; 05-05-2006 at 07:33 AM.

  12. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe
    Ummm . . . Jake got that nickname in college, Lava.

    -----

    Doing the same thing I believe.

  13. #388
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    I could probably look it up, but I'm lazy.

    How did he get "Jake"?

    His real name is Jason, and Jake is usually what you call a Jacob......

    Thanks in advance for the answer!!

    HOPING TO SEE MORE OF THIS IN 2012


    ESPNís John Clayton reported that McKenzie is expected to review Jacksonís performance for the next week or so. Clayton reports that the odds favor Jackson staying in Oakland, but a decision has not been made. "I still get the feeling Jackson will end up being retained." 3 1/2 HOURS LATER, THE RAIDERS FIRED JACKSON.....GOOD CALL CLAYTON

  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravage!!!
    No one said jake couldn't run...but he was named the snake LONG before he came to Arizona.

    Its not like Jake didn't have a defense to support him as well. He had two VERY good DL (Simeon Rice & Eric Swann) and two great corners (one that could go to the HoF) in Corey Chavous and Aeneas Williams.

    If you think having a trio of WRs like David Boston, Rob Moore, and Frank Sanders was something to sneeze at...then you have to do more research. If you think that having a FB in Larry Centers was something that hindered Jake, then I think you need to see the records set by him (he was catching 100 passes a season before Jake was drafted, so it wasn't Jake that made him a valuable threat. In fact, Center's numbers went from 100+ catches in '97 when Jake was drafted, to just 30 the first year Jake started).

    So trying to convince me that Jake was surrounded by lesser talent than Elway was just doesn't hold water.

    Do I think Elway would have 130 QB rating? No. But do I feel that if we had Elway going into the play-offs THIS year... could Elway have taken this team to the Super Bowl... absolutely. You bring up QB rating to compare LEVEL of QB play? Really? Because.. I do believe that Steve Bono broke some of Montana's QB rating records when he started for KC? You trying to tell me Bono is the same QB that Montana is? I think the immobile Bono has one of the longest runs for TD by a QB (although Im' sure the addition of Vick has lowered the number down the list).. you trying to say that Steve Bono is a better scrambler than all the great running QBs?

    Stats look pretty on paper. But they don't tell how a QB PLAYS on the field. Thats why comparing stats just doesn't cut it when comparing to players. Thats why anyone that really WATCHED great players will never compare Plummer with any great QB. I won't even say don't compare him to Elway.. because there really is none. I'm saying don't compare Jake to ANY great QB. There is just MORE to the comparisons than what the numbers on a sheet of paper say.

    Also. Jake has never been voted to the pro-bowl team. He's gone to hawaii twice... both times as an alternate. This year, he was the alternate to the alternate....going only after two people ahead of him couldn't make the trip and cancelled. If stats on paper mean something to you, then how does that 0 look?
    rice had two good years. 1999 2000 16.5 & 10 SACKS

    Chavous really did nothing in AZ started only 14 games his last year there 2001 he became a real player in MIN and STL

    Neither Williams or swann show up in my CBs sportsline as current players.

    I seem to remember some injury issues with swann and your correct williams was simply one of the best ever who he played with and when I can't recall.

    But when they played and with whom might be something else all together.

    I have never regarded AZ as a defensive power house.

    While I have not followed them closely I remember them getting there butts kicked almost all the time by SFO DAL and WAS. We seemed to get alot of their game here in ELPASO. While he may have had a player or two that were great players on his team, I simply don't recall all these folks playing consistently all the time while he was in PHX. seemed to me that he have some players as they would leave as a FA they would draft to fill the holes. God knows the were always drafting low but the owner never wanted to spend the money to keep his players. Same thing that happened in CIN.

    In your rabid dislike for Jake there might be some factual slips in your theories.

  15. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe
    Yes, Jake had a fantastic supporting cast.

    That's why the Cardinals had those perennial winning records and playoff appearances.

    BTW, Larry Centers had 54 receptions in 1997 and 69 in 1998. What year were you thinking was Jake's first?

    -----
    He was looking at rushing attempts verses receptions. I do think it is telling that Centers averaged 84 receptions a year the 4 years prior to Jake and 61.5 receptions a year the 2 years with Jake. For reference, after leaving AZ, Centers returned to average 76 receptions per year the next 3 years in Washington and Buffalo before his career started to wind down.

    During this period, Centers was considered one of the best, if not the best, receiving backs in the NFL, but put up pedestrian numbers with Jake.

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