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  1. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lomax View Post
    The criticism of Orton is that he doesn't get it done when it matters. The "good" QBs get it done with pieces Orton never had. Good to great OLs, HOF TEs, #1 defenses, HOF coaches. If you're gonna lay his lack of success in crucial situations on Orton, you must choose to ignore the fact that he never had the tools around him that those QBs did.
    Completely ignored the point made.

  2. #707
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    Quote Originally Posted by MH Stampede View Post
    Completely ignored the point made.
    It is a team sport and without a supporting cast no team will win a superbowl. That is the point you have been trying to oppose isn't it.

  3. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by MH Stampede View Post
    Completely ignored the point made.
    If nobody gets your point then maybe there's nothing wrong with us, but something wrong with your point.

    If you surround a good player with turds, he will play like a turd. If you gave Peyton Manning no weapons, a crappy OL, and a defense that hemorraged points, he would suck. You wouldn't be able to even see how good he could be, because he would have no time in the pocket and would be shellshocked by getting hit constantly.

    There is an elite class of players (i.e. Barry Sanders, John Elway, etc.) that break that basic rule of thumb, but generally, it's true.

    It's no coincidence that the best QBs have had elite support. Brady with a HOF coach, elite OL, Manning with an elite OL, two elite WRs, and an elite TE, Rivers with a HOF TE and a HOF RB, etc.

    Players don't have Madden ratings. "Good" depends on a lot of factors, not the least of which is their situation, coaching and organizational support. Brandon Lloyd is a good WR in Denver, not so good in Chicago or SF. Whether or not you felt he was "good" the whole time is meaningless, since you can only measure "good" with results, and those will only occur under the right circumstances.
    "Pey-Pey to Bay-Bay for the Tay Day!!"


  4. #709
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    Aug 2011
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    IF YALL WANNA WIN PUT TEBOW IN!!!!!!!!!!! he is a winner and thats what we need most right now! we dont need a practice player

  5. #710
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    Aug 2011
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    Why are we still fighting about tim tebow and orton..?? 1st stringer against 3rd stringer..?? how about you let tebow develop into a second string QB first. i guess we can always use him like SD used LT in wildcat situations. I mean he's the perfect guy, A runningback who can throw the ball deep. all kidding aside, LET THE GUY DEVELOP!!. If they put him in now he is going to suck and loose a lot of games..!! u really think he's going to get that love if he losses games. NO! He's going to be released because nobody in this team has their job attached to this guys name and we'll just draft the next team tebow next year. It was clear from the time that he was drafted that he wasn't ready, so invest on him, but in the long run. don't sell your stocks now. LET HIM DEVELOP like Aaron rogers. He wasn't peyton manning coming out of the draft, don't treat him like if he was.

    If you ask me, I think Quinn is now ready to compete for a starting bid. just sayin.
    Last edited by gsus17; 08-22-2011 at 12:46 PM. Reason: laptop sux and sent it without my approval..!!
    [FONT="Century Gothic"][I]If I agreed with you, we would both be wrong...[/I][/FONT]

  6. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaze22 View Post
    IF YALL WANNA WIN PUT TEBOW IN!!!!!!!!!!! he is a winner and thats what we need most right now! we dont need a practice player
    That is why EFX are smarter than you. Orton is starting.
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  7. #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    It is a team sport and without a supporting cast no team will win a superbowl. That is the point you have been trying to oppose isn't it.
    Go back and read what I actually wrote. I never said such a thing. Of course I have repeated that line several times now, but you seem incapable of understanding that, so I have repeated it..........again.

    What I said, is that a truly good player, is going to be a good player no matter who is around him. Not a difficult concept.

    Where in the hell you get out of that I said anyone could win without others good players is completely beyond me. Since you pretty much made that up out of thin air and then proceeded to argue against a point I never have, or ever will, make.

    But hey, if you want to continue the outright lying about what I said or didn't say, nothing I can do about that.

  8. #713
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lomax View Post
    If nobody gets your point then maybe there's nothing wrong with us, but something wrong with your point.

    If you surround a good player with turds, he will play like a turd. If you gave Peyton Manning no weapons, a crappy OL, and a defense that hemorraged points, he would suck. You wouldn't be able to even see how good he could be, because he would have no time in the pocket and would be shellshocked by getting hit constantly.

    There is an elite class of players (i.e. Barry Sanders, John Elway, etc.) that break that basic rule of thumb, but generally, it's true.

    It's no coincidence that the best QBs have had elite support. Brady with a HOF coach, elite OL, Manning with an elite OL, two elite WRs, and an elite TE, Rivers with a HOF TE and a HOF RB, etc.

    Players don't have Madden ratings. "Good" depends on a lot of factors, not the least of which is their situation, coaching and organizational support. Brandon Lloyd is a good WR in Denver, not so good in Chicago or SF. Whether or not you felt he was "good" the whole time is meaningless, since you can only measure "good" with results, and those will only occur under the right circumstances.
    Really?

    Champ Bailey was playing on a garbage defense, yet he still well? Or are you saying he played like garbage too?

    Great players throughout NFL history have been on bad teams. But they are still great players. Happens every year, even in today's NFL.

    Don't give the "maddin line" son, I don't even own the danged game.

    So what YOU are saying, is that teams are good or bad, but players are not???

    That makes ZERO sense.

  9. #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by MH Stampede View Post
    Go back and read what I actually wrote. I never said such a thing. Of course I have repeated that line several times now, but you seem incapable of understanding that, so I have repeated it..........again.

    What I said, is that a truly good player, is going to be a good player no matter who is around him. Not a difficult concept.

    Where in the hell you get out of that I said anyone could win without others good players is completely beyond me. Since you pretty much made that up out of thin air and then proceeded to argue against a point I never have, or ever will, make.

    But hey, if you want to continue the outright lying about what I said or didn't say, nothing I can do about that.
    I was asking you a question because I was not in the argument so I was just asking. I don't like to jump into others arguments and have no idea what they are talking about like say someone else who often does

  10. #715
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    Quote Originally Posted by MH Stampede View Post
    Really?

    Champ Bailey was playing on a garbage defense, yet he still well? Or are you saying he played like garbage too?

    Great players throughout NFL history have been on bad teams. But they are still great players. Happens every year, even in today's NFL.

    Don't give the "maddin line" son, I don't even own the danged game.

    So what YOU are saying, is that teams are good or bad, but players are not???

    That makes ZERO sense.
    I guess you didn't realize that we were 30th in the league in opponent passer rating with 93.

    Champ made very little impact on our pass defense, and was hardly amazing when put to the test. He wasn't part of the problem, but he wasn't good enough to make the pro bowl OR keep our team out of the league cellar in pass defense. This isn't just a "good" corner. This is the face of the franchise, future first ballot HOFer who was the undisputed best corner in the league just a few years ago. He has either A) Lost his ability, or B) Not been in the best scenario to showcase his talents.

    So I have no idea why you're pulling the Champ card. I'll let you put that back in your deck and save it for a better argument.

    Players are good or bad based on their own ability and the situation they're in. Part of that situation is the players around them, part of it is coaching, and part of it is the circumstance. Randy Moss sucked on the Raiders, and anybody with a pair of eyes could see that. Yet he put up MVP numbers with the Pats. Then he goes back to sucking with the Vikes and Titans. The Pats make their living taking players who are average and making them play like great players. Do you honestly think Danny Woodhead is as good as he is on another team? You think Wes Welker was a pro-bowl receiver on the Dolphins? Matt Cassel deserved his massive contract (at the time) with the Chiefs?

    You don't think the same principle works in reverse? That good players can be submarined by bad circumstances, coaches, teams, and play like average players or worse? Was Kurt Warner a HOF QB in New York? Is McNabb really as bad as he played in Washington?

    This really shouldn't have to be explained to any fan of the sport, but players play depends on a lot of variables besides their ability, and lots of "good" players are only "good" and not just "okay" because they landed in the right conditions for success.
    Last edited by Lomax; 08-22-2011 at 10:59 PM.
    "Pey-Pey to Bay-Bay for the Tay Day!!"


  11. #716
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaze22 View Post
    IF YALL WANNA WIN PUT TEBOW IN!!!!!!!!!!! he is a winner and thats what we need most right now! we dont need a practice player
    I'm going to assume your new considering your total number of posts says n/a and no we wouldn't win. Tim is just not that good.


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  12. #717
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    Dec 2010
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    After a 0-6 start, Tebow will be in anyways. They might as well start him now.

    What has Kyle Orton ever done? He's not a QB that's going to be capable of winning it all, so I don't see the point in ever having him on my team.

  13. #718
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    Quote Originally Posted by thinkin101 View Post
    I'm going to assume your new considering your total number of posts says n/a and no we wouldn't win. Tim is just not that good.
    But Kyle Orton is? Didn't the Broncos go 3-10 last season under Kyle Orton?

  14. #719
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    How many phantom sacks will Orton have this season?

    i predicted that he will get less than 15 phantom sacks! :orton:

  15. #720
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    He had like 4 last year? Maybe one or two more.... I'll put a realistic number out there and say 5.

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