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  1. #1
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    Was Miller a good pick? (Discussion moved from "Preseason QB stats")

    Quote Originally Posted by JW7 View Post
    I agree. He may do in depth breakdowns but that doesn't mean he is right or knows what he is talking about. Prime example is him thinking that the Miller pick was bad.

    Breaking down Tebow's footage this preseason reveals a player who looks like a second year pro. Even when he has time in the pocket (which has been rare) he locks onto one guy. If that read isn't there, he stands in the pocket and looks lost.
    Miller wasn't a great pick, as of now he has shown to be below average in the run game, has been out of posistion, and hasn't showed a wide variety of pass rush moves. A lot will come with experience, but that could take a year or 2 just like it would for any other player. Other than his first step he's not head and shoulders above any other LB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the0rangecrush View Post
    Miller wasn't a great pick, as of now he has shown to be below average in the run game, has been out of posistion, and hasn't showed a wide variety of pass rush moves. A lot will come with experience, but that could take a year or 2 just like it would for any other player. Other than his first step he's not head and shoulders above any other LB.

    I will give you that he has been out of position at times, he is a rookie and I guarantee EVERY rookie will have that happen at least a couple times probably in their second year as well. So thats normal and something you shouldn't count against a rookie. Its expected.

    And I'm sorry but how is a rookie who has played in 3 pre season games and accumulated 3 sacks not shown a wide variety of pass rush moves? I for one have seen him turn the corner with speed and sack the QB, I have seen an amazing bull rush with loads of technique and power to sack the QB as well as fake outside then come back in where he just tried to finish too high and Tavaris Jackson made him miss but SHOULD have been a sack. In his limited playing time I think that shows a lot. And thats a rookie without any OTAs and just training camp.

    Also can you please explain to me how he has been below average in the run game?
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    Quote Originally Posted by the0rangecrush View Post
    Miller wasn't a great pick, as of now he has shown to be below average in the run game, has been out of posistion, and hasn't showed a wide variety of pass rush moves. A lot will come with experience, but that could take a year or 2 just like it would for any other player. Other than his first step he's not head and shoulders above any other LB.
    No offense but that is a matter of your opinion. So many "experts" have said it was an excellent pick and that he is great. They've listed various reasons why.

    When an analyst says something that agrees to your opinion, it is taken as gold. Why is it not the same when those analyst say something different?

    (I don't mean you specifically).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caliraiderhater View Post
    I will give you that he has been out of position at times, he is a rookie and I guarantee EVERY rookie will have that happen at least a couple times probably in their second year as well. So thats normal and something you shouldn't count against a rookie. Its expected.

    And I'm sorry but how is a rookie who has played in 3 pre season games and accumulated 3 sacks not shown a wide variety of pass rush moves? I for one have seen him turn the corner with speed and sack the QB, I have seen an amazing bull rush with loads of technique and power to sack the QB as well as fake outside then come back in where he just tried to finish too high and Tavaris Jackson made him miss but SHOULD have been a sack. In his limited playing time I think that shows a lot. And thats a rookie without any OTAs and just training camp.

    Also can you please explain to me how he has been below average in the run game?
    He was playing rookie and below average RTs, he relies way to much on speed and runs himself out of the play most of the time. He only showed the bull rush in 1 game he didnt consistently do it. Not to mention he has the added benefit of playing across one of the best pass rushers in the league taking a ton of pressure off him. In the run game he doesn't engage well, gets caught in the wash, and if a blocker gets to him hes done. With the number 2 pick you want a game changer, if you take Doom out of the D miller would be nowhere near as effective yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JW7 View Post
    I agree. He may do in depth breakdowns but that doesn't mean he is right or knows what he is talking about. Prime example is him thinking that the Miller pick was bad.

    Breaking down Tebow's footage this preseason reveals a player who looks like a second year pro. Even when he has time in the pocket (which has been rare) he locks onto one guy. If that read isn't there, he stands in the pocket and looks lost.

    No problem with people not agreeing with me, though anyone that is not deadset against Tebow can watch his tape and see solid QB play despite the talent around him. Whether they acknowledge it is a different animal.

    So, does it mean I'm right? In non-opinion instances, yes it does. And I always know what I'm talking about or I don't talk. It's an easy concept.

    However, lets keep the Von Miller selection accurate. I personally don't believe you draft LBs over elite DTs. I never will. That doesn't make the selection bad, that makes it one I disagree with. The jury is still out on the selection. I like that Dennis Allen is essentially using Miller as a 34 OLB rather than a 43 SAM. Now all that is left is for Miller to play well against someone other than Demetrius Bell, John Carpenter, and Seattle's 4th string TE. As well as learn to play LB and become more physical against the run. Everyone forgets, but he was shut down by Tyron Smith and Erik Pears.

    I understand the sacks are flashy, but we're a long way from being sure that was the correct route to go. I still would have taken Dareus or Fairley. I believe I can find an elite rush LB so much easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swaiy View Post
    No offense but that is a matter of your opinion. So many "experts" have said it was an excellent pick and that he is great. They've listed various reasons why.

    When an analyst says something that agrees to your opinion, it is taken as gold. Why is it not the same when those analyst say something different?

    (I don't mean you specifically).
    I definitely see where you're coming from, but they have been wrong more times than naught as well. I'm not saying Miller can't be special, just he has a ways to go still.

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    Miller may run the arc better than anyone in the NFL already. His first step and shoulder dip are both at elite levels. He does not need a phenomenal 2nd move. As we saw in Seattle, an average bull rush move will work just fine.

    If a pitcher has an amazing fastball, then his offspeed only needs to be average to be effective.

    Do not care what the competition was. Most, if not all, RTs in the NFL are not built to handle his speed. Look for plenty of RTs to be constantly off balance trying to counter it. 13 sacks is a very realistic projection.

    His run defense has been just fine. He has shown on three separate occasions textbook tackles in a one on one situation. The only criticism I have is he still is out of position too often, but that will improve with reps. He completely stood up Jackson in the buffalo game, and Forsett in the Seattle game.

    We are talking about a games worth of play and a little over a month of instruction.
    Last edited by MHSalute; 09-02-2011 at 12:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caliraiderhater View Post
    I will give you that he has been out of position at times, he is a rookie and I guarantee EVERY rookie will have that happen at least a couple times probably in their second year as well. So thats normal and something you shouldn't count against a rookie. Its expected.

    And I'm sorry but how is a rookie who has played in 3 pre season games and accumulated 3 sacks not shown a wide variety of pass rush moves? I for one have seen him turn the corner with speed and sack the QB, I have seen an amazing bull rush with loads of technique and power to sack the QB as well as fake outside then come back in where he just tried to finish too high and Tavaris Jackson made him miss but SHOULD have been a sack. In his limited playing time I think that shows a lot. And thats a rookie without any OTAs and just training camp.

    Also can you please explain to me how he has been below average in the run game?

    Preseason 1
    http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=191422

    Preseason 2
    http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=192164

    Preseason 3
    http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=192538




    There should be more accurate and detailed Von Miller analysis throughout those breakdowns that anywhere else on the planet at this time. If you have any concern about my accuracy, I list the time and quarter, simply watch the play yourself through NFL.com's unlimited preseason package, DVR, or YouTube.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MHSalute View Post
    Miller may run the arc better than anyone in the NFL already. His first step and shoulder dip are both at elite levels. He does not need a phenomenal 2nd move. As we saw in Seattle, an average bull rush move will work just fine.

    If a pitcher has an amazing fastball, then his offspeed only needs to be average to be effective.

    Do not care what the competition was. Most, if not all, RTs in the NFL are not built to handle his speed. Look for plenty of RTs to be constantly off balance trying to counter it. 13 sacks is a very realistic projection.

    His run defense has been just fine. He has shown on three separate occasions textbook tackles in a one on one situation. The only criticism I have is he still is out of position too often, but that will improve with reps.

    He completely stood up Jackson in the buffalo game, and Forsett in the Seattle game.
    He doesn't run it better than anyone in the NFL already, in fact he runs himself out of the play more than into it. As for the run game you are looking at select instances not the entire body of work. As for a pitcher you need at least a good second pitch to be an elite pitcher no matter how good your fastball is you need a second one to counter it or you're going to get shredded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MHSalute View Post
    Miller may run the arc better than anyone in the NFL already. His first step and shoulder dip are both at elite levels. He does not need a phenomenal 2nd move. As we saw in Seattle, an average bull rush move will work just fine.

    If a pitcher has an amazing fastball, then his offspeed only needs to be average to be effective.

    Do not care what the competition was. Most, if not all, RTs in the NFL are not built to handle his speed. Look for plenty of RTs to be constantly off balance trying to counter it. 13 sacks is a very realistic projection.

    His run defense has been just fine. He has shown on three separate occasions textbook tackles in a one on one situation. The only criticism I have is he still is out of position too often, but that will improve with reps.

    He completely stood up Jackson in the buffalo game, and Forsett in the Seattle game.

    We'll have to have a debate on this. Do you have your notes on Miller, I can give you more than *a lot* of plays where he misplayed the run. I have him for one good form tackle all preseason against the 190 lb Forsett, and a debateable open field attempt on CJ Spiller, where he didn't make the tackle, and it was FAR from textbook. I don't have another tackle, except the one where he jumped on Forsett's back. I thought it was effective, but that's all.

    I'd grade him as a D against the run so far. A B on the pass rush. And a D in his LB drops.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the0rangecrush View Post
    He doesn't run it better than anyone in the NFL already, in fact he runs himself out of the play more than into it. As for the run game you are looking at select instances not the entire body of work. As for a pitcher you need at least a good second pitch to be an elite pitcher no matter how good your fastball is you need a second one to counter it or you're going to get shredded.

    MHSalute is accurate in parroting the common arc/dip praise. Everyone has to acknowledge that Miller has those exact things aced, it's what made him the #2 overall selection. And it's exciting to watch him do it successfully.

    I do agree he needs several moves. Its way too easy to just ride him out of the play. At 240 lbs, he's one of the easier Rush LBs to block. The bull rush was good, but that's only going to work when it surprises a lesser OT. And he has an inside move he's tried all preseason, it just hasn't worked yet.


    So, to me, both of you are right. He's more optimistic, you're more "wait and see". I'm probably in the second boat myself, but we all have to be pleased with the early returns on the pass rush. All Miller can do is beat the man in front of him, he can't help it if they suck. Let Miller beat a few established OTs, as well as raise his play when he drops at LB, and we'll all harmonize our love for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the0rangecrush View Post
    He doesn't run it better than anyone in the NFL already, in fact he runs himself out of the play more than into it. As for the run game you are looking at select instances not the entire body of work. As for a pitcher you need at least a good second pitch to be an elite pitcher no matter how good your fastball is you need a second one to counter it or you're going to get shredded.
    Disagree, but if he runs himself out of it more than into it...then he will be godly with some experience.

    In one game of play, he has hit the QB 8 times, sacking him 3. He has amassed 6 solo tackles. Over a course of a full year that is 48 sacks, and 96 solo tackles and 128 hits on a QB.

    As an entire body of work, I would say that is pretty good. Do I expect those numbers? No, but when the bullets are real, 13 sacks and 75 total tackles is easily where his game is at as a rookie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan View Post
    We'll have to have a debate on this. Do you have your notes on Miller, I can give you more than *a lot* of plays where he misplayed the run. I have him for one good form tackle all preseason against the 190 lb Forsett, and a debateable open field attempt on CJ Spiller, where he didn't make the tackle, and it was FAR from textbook. I don't have another tackle, except the one where he jumped on Forsett's back. I thought it was effective, but that's all.

    I'd grade him as a D against the run so far. A B on the pass rush. And a D in his LB drops.
    One was not a run but a pass to Jackson where he completely stood him up in the open field (then Jackson was gang tackled as Vauhgn tried to strip ball).

    D is fair if it was a vet out there, but as a rookie I would say C+. Chances are he will be worse before it gets better when teams game plan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHSalute View Post
    Disagree, but if he runs himself out of it more than into it...then he will be godly with some experience.

    In one game of play, he has hit the QB 8 times, sacking him 3. He has amassed 6 solo tackles. Over a course of a full year that is 48 sacks, and 96 solo tackles and 128 hits on a QB.

    As an entire body of work, I would say that is pretty good. Do I expect those numbers? No, but when the bullets are real, 13 sacks and 75 total tackles is easily where his game is at as a rookie.

    I think your numbers are about right. I'll have to review the schedule, but if he plays a below-average OT, I think he gets a sack. He's fast and talented. Teams will gameplan for him sooner than later, and that will hurt, but he should be good to bust out at least one sack per game against inferior talents. I think he'll really struggle with average and better OTs, especially if they have a RB account for him.

    You're pretty bullish on Miller's potential, and I'm fine with that. I'm certainly more cautiously optimistic. I expect that at the end of the day, we'll both be happy with his rookie season, though I'll probably harp on his flaws a tad more. It's just what I do as Orlando Franklin and Robert Ayers are keenly aware.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MHSalute View Post
    Disagree, but if he runs himself out of it more than into it...then he will be godly with some experience.

    In one game of play, he has hit the QB 8 times, sacking him 3. He has amassed 6 solo tackles. Over a course of a full year that is 48 sacks, and 96 solo tackles and 128 hits on a QB.

    As an entire body of work, I would say that is pretty good. Do I expect those numbers? No, but when the bullets are real, 13 sacks and 75 total tackles is easily where his game is at as a rookie.
    Like I said he's not great yet, he could be though he has the potential. However there are some flaws he needs to address, just like any rookie. It's easy to look good in the rush when that's you're specialty and Doom is on the other side. He still needs a year of mistakes and developmental time before he can be even thought about as elite.

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