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  1. #1561
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELWAY421 View Post
    See, you are assuming & assuming isn't good. Did you notice how I lol after the ban thing? I actually stole it from Stephen A Smith, he used to say to Skip Bayless all of the time.... Don't flatter yourself ...


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    Vote & look at the results from age to States... You'll clearly see that older people like you and I think he is a legend. Top 10 of all time would be considered a legend in my book man... You could say well those are just fans, but fans of all ages and all states...
    Fair enough, and to be clear I would put LeBron in top 10 of all time, even if his career ended today. I have never said otherwise, it's folks putting words in my mouth that make it appear otherwise.

    Where my opinion is likely to differ, is that he has completely ruined any and all chance of being considered among the "true greats." To define that term, I consider that somewhere in the top 5 or top 3 range. He sold that privilege years ago by teaming up in an effort to buy a legacy.

    Could you imagine Jordan getting tired of the beatings and running off to join the Pistons or Knicks? It would not be met well in that time, and for good reason.

    I actually consider it a shame because LeBron clearly has the talent to have been 1a or 1b to Jordan, sadly, he does not possess the intangibles.

  2. #1562
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJBroncoFan View Post
    He sold that privilege years ago by teaming up in an effort to buy a legacy .
    Jordan had Pippen and Grant & then Pippen & Rodman.

    Magic had Kareem & Worthy.

    Bird had McHale & Parrish.

    Who's to say any of those players wouldn't have left their organizations if they didn't have help?

    Is it LeBron's fault that the Cleveland front office couldn't put talent around him?

    Tell me one player LeBron played with on a Cavs squad before Kyrie that could compare to a Pippen?


    Quote Originally Posted by JJBroncoFan View Post
    Could you imagine Jordan getting tired of the beatings and running off to join the Pistons or Knicks? It would not be met well in that time, and for good reason.

    Can't assume what would've happened if the Bulls didn't get Pippen.

    Cleveland gave LeBron Mo Williams & Jamison lol.


    Quote Originally Posted by JJBroncoFan View Post
    I actually consider it a shame because LeBron clearly has the talent to have been 1a or 1b to Jordan, sadly, he does not possess the intangibles.
    Jordan is the greatest, that's a fact, but LeBron is top 10 all time & that would make him legend imho.
    Dread it.Run from it.
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  3. #1563
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJBroncoFan View Post
    Fair enough, and to be clear I would put LeBron in top 10 of all time, even if his career ended today. I have never said otherwise, it's folks putting words in my mouth that make it appear otherwise.

    Where my opinion is likely to differ, is that he has completely ruined any and all chance of being considered among the "true greats." To define that term, I consider that somewhere in the top 5 or top 3 range. He sold that privilege years ago by teaming up in an effort to buy a legacy.

    Could you imagine Jordan getting tired of the beatings and running off to join the Pistons or Knicks? It would not be met well in that time, and for good reason.

    I actually consider it a shame because LeBron clearly has the talent to have been 1a or 1b to Jordan, sadly, he does not possess the intangibles.
    Let me get this straight, then. Are you saying LeBron is Karl Malone, because of some hypothetical reality that if he'd stayed in Cleveland he never would've won a championship? Or, are you saying that he's Karl Malone, because he wouldn't have beaten the Chicago Bulls of the 90's with the teams he's played on? Because LeBron James is a better player than Karl Malone was. That should be pretty obvious, right? Saying LeBron isn't top 5, because he hypothetically couldn't beat the greatest player of all time isn't saying anything. Kobe, Bird, and Magic couldn't hypothetically beat the 90's Bulls with what LeBron has had. Does that mean they're not top 5 material?

    Here's the rundown. Real talk:

    Kobe's teammate: Shaquille O'Neal (top 10 all time)
    Jordan's teammate: Scottie Pippen (top 25-35 all time)
    Magic's teammate: Kareem Abdul Jabbar (top 5 all time)
    Karl Malone's teammate: John Stockton (top 20-30 all time)
    Kareem: Oscar (top 15) Magic (top 5-10)
    Wilt: West (top 15) Baylor (20-30)

    Where do you put Wade? Bosh? Kyrie?

    So LeBron's great teammates never came to him in Cleveland like they did for Kobe, Jordan, Magic, Malone, and Bird. He went to them. Was he a donkey hole the way he did it, hell yes. But there's no guarantees in life. He may never have had that player come along had he stayed. So in that regard, it's hard to blame him.
    Last edited by Spice 1; 07-04-2016 at 06:53 PM.

  4. #1564
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELWAY421 View Post
    Jordan had Pippen and Grant & then Pippen & Rodman.

    Magic had Kareem & Worthy.

    Bird had McHale & Parrish.

    Who's to say any of those players wouldn't have left their organizations if they didn't have help?

    Is it LeBron's fault that the Cleveland front office couldn't put talent around him?

    Tell me one player LeBron played with on a Cavs squad before Kyrie that could compare to a Pippen?

    Can't assume what would've happened if the Bulls didn't get Pippen.

    Cleveland gave LeBron Mo Williams & Jamison lol.


    Oh, don't forget a broke down Zydrunas Ilgauskas for Christ's sake.

  5. #1565
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJBroncoFan View Post
    Because I disagree with you I should be banned? Lol! That speaks volumes sadly.

    LeBron wouldn't have half of those accomplishments in that era, that's my whole point, I don't see the confusion. He would have nice stats and be respected around the league, but no jewelry.

    He would never been able to lead a team past the Michael Jordan lead Bulls. I don't think he could have beaten the Olajuwon lead Rockets either. That's why he would be another Karl Malone, it's not much of an insult, yet panties are way bunched up in here.
    Do you think Kobe would have won 5 titles in that era? Would Chamberlin and Russell? Would Jordan have 6 rings in the Bird/Magic era? There's no way to answer these questions, and you shouldn't diminish what these players do in these different eras
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  6. #1566
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    Quote Originally Posted by HUMCALC View Post
    Do you think Kobe would have won 5 titles in that era? Would Chamberlin and Russell? Would Jordan have 6 rings in the Bird/Magic era? There's no way to answer these questions, and you shouldn't diminish what these players do in these different eras
    Speaking of hypotheticals. Hornets don't trade Kobe...now what? Don't answer that, JJ. I'll answer it. He becomes a free agent and signs with the Los Angeles Lakers to team up with Shaquille O'Neal.

  7. #1567
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELWAY421 View Post
    Jordan had Pippen and Grant & then Pippen & Rodman.

    Magic had Kareem & Worthy.

    Bird had McHale & Parrish.

    Who's to say any of those players wouldn't have left their organizations if they didn't have help?

    Is it LeBron's fault that the Cleveland front office couldn't put talent around him?

    Tell me one player LeBron played with on a Cavs squad before Kyrie that could compare to a Pippen?





    Can't assume what would've happened if the Bulls didn't get Pippen.

    Cleveland gave LeBron Mo Williams & Jamison lol.




    Jordan is the greatest, that's a fact, but LeBron is top 10 all time & that would make him legend imho.
    I don't really buy that as a valid argument for what he did, but as a matter of legacy maybe it's fair. He didn't have a Pippen, McHale, Jabbar, etc. They did bring in several guys that never really amounted to the hype though, for various reasons. With that said, I always found it strange that they couldn't get more talent to come to him, who knows why.

    It is also my opinion that the guys you mentioned made others around them better. Would anyone remember Luc Longley or Bill Wennington if not for MJ, some probably don't lol. Pippen likely wouldn't have been the player he was without Jordan. We're entering the world of assumptions again though, the one you chastised me for lol.

    Again, I defined what I meant about legend, and that I would put him in the top 10. However, I believe he set his ceiling at number 4 or lower, which isn't bad. For me it would take a lot to supplant MJ, Bird, or Magic.

  8. #1568
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    I've hated on players! I hated on Jordan. Couldn't stand Jordan, but I've always recognized greatness. What LeBron James has accomplished in the NBA isn't nothing less than stellar! I'm not saying he's top 5, it isn't over & the top 5 is tough to crack but he's top 10 now & the top 10 is all legendary. I'm a Broncos fan, but it's the equivalent of me saying Brady is Brian Sipe(lol well maybe not that bad) lol. Lebron is great, Brady is great.... It's just truth, whether you like the players or not...
    Dread it.Run from it.
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  9. #1569
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJBroncoFan View Post
    I don't really buy that as a valid argument for what he did, but as a matter of legacy maybe it's fair. He didn't have a Pippen, McHale, Jabbar, etc. They did bring in several guys that never really amounted to the hype though, for various reasons. With that said, I always found it strange that they couldn't get more talent to come to him, who knows why.

    It is also my opinion that the guys you mentioned made others around them better. Would anyone remember Luc Longley or Bill Wennington if not for MJ, some probably don't lol. Pippen likely wouldn't have been the player he was without Jordan. We're entering the world of assumptions again though, the one you chastised me for lol.

    Again, I defined what I meant about legend, and that I would put him in the top 10. However, I believe he set his ceiling at number 4 or lower, which isn't bad. For me it would take a lot to supplant MJ, Bird, or Magic.
    Give me your top ten of all time? Is Kareem in your top 5? What about Shaq? Are those two not legends? Out of all of the players that played in the NBA how could only consider 5 legendary? What about Wilt? Oscar?
    Dread it.Run from it.
    Destiny arrives all the same.

  10. #1570
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spice 1 View Post
    Let me get this straight, then. Are you saying LeBron is Karl Malone, because of some hypothetical reality that if he'd stayed in Cleveland he never would've won a championship? Or, are you saying that he's Karl Malone, because he wouldn't have beaten the Chicago Bulls of the 90's with the teams he's played on? Because LeBron James is a better player than Karl Malone was. That should be pretty obvious, right? Saying LeBron isn't top 5, because he hypothetically couldn't beat the greatest player of all time isn't saying anything. Kobe, Bird, and Magic couldn't hypothetically beat the 90's Bulls with what LeBron has had. Does that mean they're not top 5 material?

    Here's the rundown. Real talk:

    Kobe's teammate: Shaquille O'Neal (top 10 all time)
    Jordan's teammate: Scottie Pippen (top 25-35 all time)
    Magic's teammate: Kareem Abdul Jabbar (top 5 all time)
    Karl Malone's teammate: John Stockton (top 20-30 all time)
    Kareem: Oscar (top 15) Magic (top 5-10)
    Wilt: West (top 15) Baylor (20-30)

    Where do you put Wade? Bosh? Kyrie?

    So LeBron's great teammates never came to him in Cleveland like they did for Kobe, Jordan, Magic, Malone, and Bird. He went to them. Was he a donkey hole the way he did it, hell yes. But there's no guarantees in life. He may never have had that player come along had he stayed. So in that regard, it's hard to blame him.
    You are taking to different arguments and combining them into one here. I don't hold LeBron being a scumbag against him in his legacy, that's a separate issue.

    As far as the legacy itself and comparisons, you have to find a way to compare apples to apples when going across generations. I don't think LeBron would be even close to the same player if he had to play in the 80s and 90s for a few reasons.

    First, he is a big cry baby for a guy that weighs at least 260. Granted other players complain, including those greats. However, he has never shown me anything to make me believe those teams wouldn't get in his head and own him. The Pistons and Knicks would have given him the Jordan treatment, and it's my opinion that he would have shrank. Not to mention it was the era of the big man. He wouldn't be the force he is today going against Hakeem, Ewing, Mutumbo, Admiral, etc.

    Again, a lot of this is going to depend on opinion and perspective. I tend to compare players of all era's, to that era to get a sense of comparison. It's also why a guy like George Milan or Wilt the Stilt are not considered the two best players ever, perspective and context.

  11. #1571
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    Just want to add my name to the "Durant is a cop out" side. I was so keen on seeing Golden State having to fight to win championships, especially when OKC should have closed that series. But instead, Durant skips town, leaves his boys and fans behind, to play for a team that does not need him. I hope he regrets the move. I have lost respect for him. Doesn't matter, but it's how I feel. I tend to pull for underdogs, and I tend not to pull for stacked teams.

    I hope the basketball community lets him hear it.....not that it matters either. Just another extremely well paid, selfish player......one who could have been remembered for his heroic side.

  12. #1572
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELWAY421 View Post
    Give me your top ten of all time? Is Kareem in your top 5? What about Shaq? Are those two not legends? Out of all of the players that played in the NBA how could only consider 5 legendary? What about Wilt? Oscar?
    Fair question, so let me add some perspective and context for you. At one point, in this thread or another, I was debating with someone about where LeBron ranked all time. Somewhere in that debate a remark was made that lead me to believe that poster had James higher than Jordan, which is preposterous. I began saying "the legends" as in the best of the best. That's where that came from. I certainly do not believe that those outside that top 3 are not legends, just not within that small group. So yes in that right LeBron is certainly a legend and a hell of a basketball player. I was a huge fan of his before "the announcement" or whatever the hell he called it lol.

    To answer you question about top 10 list that's impossible for me, you could ask me ever day for the next year and get a different list from #4-10.

  13. #1573
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spice 1 View Post
    Speaking of hypotheticals. Hornets don't trade Kobe...now what? Don't answer that, JJ. I'll answer it. He becomes a free agent and signs with the Los Angeles Lakers to team up with Shaquille O'Neal.
    Is this supposed to prove some greater point? Maybe Shaq never leaves Orlando and they become the dynasty everyone imagined? What if many players hadn't wrecked their bodies early and played to their full potential (Anfernee, grant hill, etc). What would the NBA look like then?

  14. #1574
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJBroncoFan View Post
    You are taking to different arguments and combining them into one here. I don't hold LeBron being a scumbag against him in his legacy, that's a separate issue.

    As far as the legacy itself and comparisons, you have to find a way to compare apples to apples when going across generations. I don't think LeBron would be even close to the same player if he had to play in the 80s and 90s for a few reasons.

    First, he is a big cry baby for a guy that weighs at least 260. Granted other players complain, including those greats. However, he has never shown me anything to make me believe those teams wouldn't get in his head and own him. The Pistons and Knicks would have given him the Jordan treatment, and it's my opinion that he would have shrank. Not to mention it was the era of the big man. He wouldn't be the force he is today going against Hakeem, Ewing, Mutumbo, Admiral, etc.

    Again, a lot of this is going to depend on opinion and perspective. I tend to compare players of all era's, to that era to get a sense of comparison. It's also why a guy like George Milan or Wilt the Stilt are not considered the two best players ever, perspective and context.
    So now it's LeBron is not top 5, because he complains about not getting fouls? You realize he's one of the most physical players in the league? George Mikan is one of the most underrated players in NBA History based primarily on the impact he had on the league at the time he played. If Mikan played against Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem, Russell, Olajuwon, Shaq, etc. he would've gotten owned. Athletes improve from one era to the next.

    And Wilt Chamberlain is definitely one of the all time greats. He had a bad attitude, and terrible teammates early on. Those two things have nothing to do with how good he was on the court. Bill Russell got the better of him one on one once or twice. Most of the time though, Chamberlain completely outperformed every player on both teams, and still lost. The reason was because the Boston Celtics were an all star team, and the Warriors and Sixers were usually junk with Wilt. As of right now, I have Russell ranked ahead of Wilt anyway. I used to have Wilt ranked higher, but through conversations with various people, I've reconsidered. That's called growth through productive debate.

  15. #1575
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJBroncoFan View Post
    Is this supposed to prove some greater point? Maybe Shaq never leaves Orlando and they become the dynasty everyone imagined? What if many players hadn't wrecked their bodies early and played to their full potential (Anfernee, grant hill, etc). What would the NBA look like then?
    So why are you arguing in hypotheticals?

    I posted the facts weeks ago. Elway posted the facts. HUMCALC posted the facts.

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