View Poll Results: Stay or go?

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  • Await Doom's decision

    47 71.21%
  • Move on and sign Abraham

    5 7.58%
  • Move on and sign Freeney

    10 15.15%
  • Other (specify)

    4 6.06%
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Thread: Doom News.....

  1. #1021
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    this late in their respective careers what does Freeney bring to the table that Dumervil doesn't?

  2. #1022
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    The Denver Post speculated this morning that Denver would have to offer a cash sweetner to lure Elvis because he's still sour on being asked to take a pay cut, meaning he likely wouldn't accept a "same offer" from Denver.

    Now that Jake Long has bolted from Miami it frees up cap space for the Dolphins to make a serious run at Elvis, who reportedly Friday was very interested in the Dolphins. It's looking bleak my friends.

    Thank you to my grandfather jetrazor for being a veteran of the armed forces!

  3. #1023
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    One wonders how NFL scouts regard Elvis. Is he considered most valued when used as a PRS? If so, what is his value in that capacity? Is he considered an every down DE? Where does he rank if that is his job? The Broncos are on record as far as the value they place on him. We'll just have to wait and see if another values him more, and with what in mind.

    I would like to see Dumervil remain as a Bronco, but if he leaves the Broncos will move on and do just fine IMO.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  4. #1024
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    Sometimes things happen for a reason and as bad as I want our team to stay together I have to think that this will work out for the best. It shows you how greed can effect a persons judgement. Yes his agent was a big part of the blame. i am sure he was trying to hold out as long as possible but then there is also the thought that they were just trying to pull a fast one too and catch Denver sleeping to be on hook for the 12 million. The last post said he was sour but he should be thrilled because he will not get as much wherever he goes as he would have if he had just signed the contract and gotten it back to Denver before the 2:00 PM Mountain time deadline. I have to laugh at that because his greed and false foolish pride cost him what will result in millions of dollars in the end. He should still want to play in Denver because we actually were trying to offer him a realistic deal that is better than he was going to get anywhere else in the beginning. The thought was there. It is not John Elway's fault or the Broncos fans that Josh McDaniel's was such an idiot when he made that unrealistic contract.

  5. #1025
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    I think the bigger issue is the base salary this year. I am certain he'd likely get 8-9 million from another team. The question is which team. What it would likely come down to is does he want to play for a contender or would he be willing to play for a team who has more $$ but is less likely to win the SB or make the play-offs...

    All of this might be a non-issue if the NFLPA & the league agree that the the Broncos can accept and follow-through on the 8 mil deal both parties had show clear intention on signing.

  6. #1026
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsummit View Post
    Sometimes things happen for a reason and as bad as I want our team to stay together I have to think that this will work out for the best. It shows you how greed can effect a persons judgement. Yes his agent was a big part of the blame. i am sure he was trying to hold out as long as possible but then there is also the thought that they were just trying to pull a fast one too and catch Denver sleeping to be on hook for the 12 million. The last post said he was sour but he should be thrilled because he will not get as much wherever he goes as he would have if he had just signed the contract and gotten it back to Denver before the 2:00 PM Mountain time deadline. I have to laugh at that because his greed and false foolish pride cost him what will result in millions of dollars in the end. He should still want to play in Denver because we actually were trying to offer him a realistic deal that is better than he was going to get anywhere else in the beginning. The thought was there. It is not John Elway's fault or the Broncos fans that Josh McDaniel's was such an idiot when he made that unrealistic contract.
    Yeah, the reason is his dumb ass agent couldn't get the fax over in time.

    And wow, almost 1k posts on this thread

  7. #1027
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_C View Post
    this late in their respective careers what does Freeney bring to the table that Dumervil doesn't?
    Less money.......

    Of course he's longer in the tooth......




    (But less money)
    Last edited by CanDB; 03-18-2013 at 08:50 AM.

  8. #1028
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    At this point to reconcile, each side will have to likely scratch the others back a little bit.

    He will likely want the deal in the very least to match what was agreed to at 4pm on Friday if not more.

    The Broncos will require some flexibility due to the dead cap hit.

    Can it be done? In reality maybe. There are some angry people and some bruised egos involved, but from a pure $ perspective it should be able to be accomplished.

  9. #1029
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_C View Post
    I think the bigger issue is the base salary this year. I am certain he'd likely get 8-9 million from another team. The question is which team. What it would likely come down to is does he want to play for a contender or would he be willing to play for a team who has more $$ but is less likely to win the SB or make the play-offs...

    All of this might be a non-issue if the NFLPA & the league agree that the the Broncos can accept and follow-through on the 8 mil deal both parties had show clear intention on signing.
    The key to fixing that is that his base salary for 2013 will need to relatively low. The minimum he can make with his service is 715k, and it will need to be that or slightly higher, but that can be made up in the form of a signing bonus.

    If he signed a 3 year contract that had the league minimum base salary for 2013 & an 8 million signing bonus, then he would make 715k more than he would have if the 4pm agreement would have gone through.

    That scenario would also benefit the Broncos because it would have a 2013 cap hit of $3,381,667, when you couple that with the dead cap hit from his termination, the sum is still lower than the 2013 cap hit that agreed to last Friday.

    I'll expand on this in another post later.

  10. #1030
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
    The Denver Post speculated this morning that Denver would have to offer a cash sweetner to lure Elvis because he's still sour on being asked to take a pay cut, meaning he likely wouldn't accept a "same offer" from Denver.

    Now that Jake Long has bolted from Miami it frees up cap space for the Dolphins to make a serious run at Elvis, who reportedly Friday was very interested in the Dolphins. It's looking bleak my friends.
    He's already made like 20+ million the last two years. I have to think that a ring means something to him at this point and what a great shot he has here. Not to mention coming back to play with his friends like Big Vick, Von, WW, etc.

    I just really hope we work it out Freeney will be nothing but disappointing in comparison.

  11. #1031
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMileHighGuy View Post
    He's already made like 20+ million the last two years. I have to think that a ring means something to him at this point and what a great shot he has here. Not to mention coming back to play with his friends like Big Vick, Von, WW, etc.

    I just really hope we work it out Freeney will be nothing but disappointing in comparison.
    If Freeney becomes a Bronco, he'll be a PRS for one year, most likely.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  12. #1032
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    After all this with Doom and some great informative posts here, I can't help but feel like I felt before this which was it seemed like the vibe was he was going to test the market and thats what it looks like he wil do. I say go for it. Let the guy go play for some other team and see what he had going for him in Denver? He will never get the love from any other fans like he did here for one, and how many teams are as good as Denver right now? Have fun in Miami man! Give me a break with that. Dude was greedy and butt hurt and he got burned. Plug Freeney in there with this teams vibe and see if he doesn't step up? Denver's a special place and a great franchise, anybody with competitive spirit would kill to play for this team! Just ask Welker.

  13. #1033
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
    The Denver Post speculated this morning that Denver would have to offer a cash sweetner to lure Elvis because he's still sour on being asked to take a pay cut, meaning he likely wouldn't accept a "same offer" from Denver.

    Now that Jake Long has bolted from Miami it frees up cap space for the Dolphins to make a serious run at Elvis, who reportedly Friday was very interested in the Dolphins. It's looking bleak my friends.
    And if Im not mistaken, doesnt Doom have his home in Miami? I also believe he loves Miami's club scene. Yea, I see him bolting there. It goes to show that he doesnt care about a ring or legacy, its the all mighty dollar he's after.

  14. #1034
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeavisBronco View Post
    This was the most informative post I have read on the situation. Thank you for explaining this in a clear manner.
    Well, unfortunately, his post isn't accurate. At least not the conclusion where he states:

    "The one thing that a new deal does not give the team is the flexibility & leverage next year or the following year into attempting to get him to take a lower rate as it would have if the contract had made the 4pm deadline. Since a new deal would likely contain a new signing bonus, terminating a deal after year 1, or 2, would result in higher cap hits."

    Ok, here is his post and I will post below why there is zero difference in terms of cash to Doom or cap to the Broncos in resigning him now vs. the fax arriving 7 minutes earlier and the Broncos offering him the restructured deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by allthings18 View Post
    No offense to anyone is intended but there is so much misinformation, or incomplete information when it comes to dead money k I felt the need to attempt to spell it out in greater detail.

    When a guy signs a contract with a signing bonus, from a cap perspective that signing bonus is allocated over the length of the contract(in 99% of the cases).

    If a guy signs a 4 year deal with a 20 million signing bonus, then it's allocated as 5 million for each of those 4 years. He's paid the 20 million up front, but it is spread out/prorated over the contract.

    If a guy signs a 6 year deal with a 30 million signing bonus, then it's allocated as 6 million for each of those 6 years.


    So let's ignore base salaries, roster bonuses, workout bonuses and any other form of payment.

    Let's just look at the signing bonus.

    5 years 25 million signing bonus

    Year 1 would have 5 million allocated from the signing bonus, even though it was paid out upon signing.
    Year 2 would have 5 million allocated from the signing bonus, even though it was paid out upon signing.
    Year 3 would have 5 million allocated from the signing bonus, even though it was paid out upon signing.
    Year 4 would have 5 million allocated from the signing bonus, even though it was paid out upon signing.
    Year 5 would have 5 million allocated from the signing bonus, even though it was paid out upon signing.

    If the guy is cut after year 1 the 20 million allocated in years 2-5 would accelerate into the year 2 cap as dead cap space. There is an instrument called designating someone as a 6/1 cut(June 1st cut) that would allow for a 5 million dead cap charge in the current year and a 15 million dead cap charge in the following year.

    If the guy is cut after year 2 the 15 million allocated in years 3-5 would accelerate into the year 3 cap as dead cap space. There is an instrument called designating someone as a 6/1 cut(June 1st cut) that would allow for a 5 million dead cap charge in the current year and a 10 million dead cap charge in the following year.

    If the guy is cut after year 3 the 10 million allocated in years 4-5 would accelerate into the year 4 cap as dead cap space. There is an instrument called designating someone as a 6/1 cut(June 1st cut) that would allow for a 5 million dead cap charge in the current year and a 5 million dead cap charge in the following year.

    If the guy is cut after year 4 the 5 million allocated in year 5 would accelerate into the year 5 cap as dead cap space. The 6/1 designation does not come into play in the final year of a contract.

    In Dumervill's case he was cut with 3 years left on his contract. He had $1.623 million allocated in each of those final 3 years. Since he was cut that money will accelerate into the 2013 cap. $1.623 million x =$4.869 million, even though he was paid that money when he signed his contract.

    I hope this helps explain it.

    If the contract would have made the deadline, he would have had a 2013 cap hit of $9.623 million. People keep saying well with the 4.869 charge, the only way he will come back is if he agrees to play for less than 5 million dollars, and that simply isn't the case. That would be the case if Elway offered him a one year contract.

    At this point, the dead money is listed as dried black ink in the ledger, nothing can be done about it unless the Commissioner/NFLPA treat it like they treated the Terrell Owens situation that Mike Kils keeps discussing. Outside of that any type of deal will be a new deal, new contract, new signing bonus, new cap hits.

    There are plenty of scenarios or approaches that the team could take in getting him signed, to where there is a lower cap # that it would have been to start with even if you take into account the dead money that is already listed.

    The one thing that a new deal does not give the team is the flexibility & leverage next year or the following year into attempting to get him to take a lower rate as it would have if the contract had made the 4pm deadline. Since a new deal would likely contain a new signing bonus, terminating a deal after year 1, or 2, would result in higher cap hits.

    There are still instruments, such as roster bonuses, that could be added into the equation that could possibly allow for his new contract to reach the 3/30 that he had remaining, but that only complicates matters.
    Here is a spreadsheet I put together Friday breaking down the cash and cap each year and in total for the restructured contact that didn't get executed in time on Friday, as well as what a new three year contract would look like that would give the exact same cash/cap numbers for each of the next three years as would have been with the Friday restructure.



    Ok, what it shows is this. When looking, keep in mind that the first column represents cash to Doom, and the second number is the cap number for the Broncos).

    The top set of numbers shows the restructured contract that the Broncos and Doom agreed to. In essence, it was $8M in salary for '13, which would be a $9.62M cap number, because they also have to count $1.6 million in '13 from the original signing bonus for his six year deal (paid three years ago).

    In addition, the top section shows '14 and '15 number, along with the total cap for the Broncos for the three years ($34.37M) and cash to Doom if they kept him for all three years ($29.50M).

    The bottom set of numbers shows a new 3 year contract the Broncos could sign him to today that would have the same paramaters as the agreed to restructure, and have the same cash/cap consequences.

    For '13, he would get a $3.13M salary + a $4.869M signing bonus. Because signing bonuses are spread over the life of the contract, only $1.62M would count against the cap in '13. So, $3.13M (salary) + $1.62 (new bonus cap hit) + $4.87 (dead money from cutting Doom) = $9.62M cap number for 2013, the EXACT same cap number that the Broncos agreed to in the restructured contract that arrived 7 minutes too late.

    In addition, this three year contract would have the same exact cash payouts and cap numbers for '14 and '15, and the same total cash payout and same total cap consequence as the restructured deal for the whole three years. The numbers are the same if Doom stays for three years, or is cut after '13 or after the '14 seasons.

    By signing him to a new contract, they are not adding any more dead money to '14 or '15 that would result from cutting him, beyond was was already agreed to in the Friday restructure. All the new contract does is put back into '14 and '15 the $1.62M in cap allocation that was in his original contract and was in the Friday restructure.

    Bottom line, there is no change to years '14 and '15 and no additional dead money if he was cut, beyond what was already in the Friday restructure and has been there since he signed his 6 year contract 3 years ago.

    No difference.

    It's also important to note that the $4.87M dead money being thrown around as being accelerated because Doom was cut is wrong, or at least very misleading. That 4.869M is made up of the signing bonus from his original contract, which was spread over 6 years, $1.623M of which was to count in each of the final three years 13, 14 and 15. However, since $1.623 was always going to count in '13, only $3.246M was actually accelerated as a result of cutting Doom, not the $4.869M being thrown around by so many fans and press.

    One final thought.

    There is only one significant difference between the Friday restructure and resigning him to a new three year contract today. That is when the '13 salary/Bonus is paid. Presumably, under the restructure, the $8M was guaranteed, but would not be paid out until the season started, and then paid over the course of the 17 week schedule. I say presumably, because we don't know if there were any provisions to receive a portion of this once it became guaranteed or on a certain date or when the league year starts, etc..

    By resigning him to a new three year contract with a $4.87M signing bonus, the Broncos/Bowlen would have to pay the $4.9M dollars now, and then pay the $3.1M salary over the course of the season. That means that from a cashflow perspective, the Broncos have to pay $4.9M of his $8M 7-8 months earlier than they would if it was all salary, as it was in the Friday restructure that got botched.

    So, there is no difference in the total cash compensation for Doom in '13 by signing a new three year deal, there is no difference in the cap for the Broncos in '13 or beyond, but there is a cash flow difference, where the Broncos will have to pay $4.9 million about 7 months earlier than if Doom had gotten the contract signed on time.
    The human body has two ends on it: one to create with and one to sit on. Sometimes people get their ends reversed. When this happens they need a kick in the seat of the pants. --- Theodore Roosevelt


  15. #1035
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
    Well, unfortunately, his post isn't accurate. At least not the conclusion where he states:

    "The one thing that a new deal does not give the team is the flexibility & leverage next year or the following year into attempting to get him to take a lower rate as it would have if the contract had made the 4pm deadline. Since a new deal would likely contain a new signing bonus, terminating a deal after year 1, or 2, would result in higher cap hits."

    I'm not trying to be combative but actually it was accurate in the context that it was intended because the flexibility and leverage I was speaking of was for 2014/2015, based on various other contracts that could be constructed that gives the Broncos more of a benefit in 2013. Your option that you listed is one way to attempt to solve the problem, and gets the two sides back to more of an apples to apples type situation of what was in place at 4pm on Friday.

    It would be nice if your proposal would be enough to get the deal done.

    At this poiint I don't think that it will. I think it will take a little more. I don't think that apples to apples will be good enough for either side to reach an agreement at this point. The Broncos will need to see some benefit of extra space under the 2013 cap(it can be done), but it comes at a cost, and the cost of that is the leverage in the future. So since I didn't feel that an apples to apples agreement would work, I was speaking in terms of a new deal that contained in the very least 8 million as a signing bonus(the amount of cash that he was set to earn under the restructured deal), and base salaries ranging from the league minimum for a player with his experience (715k league minimum to 1 to 2 million).


    I expand on these thoughts here:
    http://allthings18.tumblr.com/post/4...nt-intended-to

    For those interested in reading it. It includes 3 contract proposals that would benefit both the player and the team.
    Last edited by allthings18; 03-18-2013 at 10:40 AM.

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