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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco51 View Post
    Totally agree with those points.
    Yea. It just sucks that it's come to this overall.

    I was in the boat that Shaw needed to be fired for a while, but I do think he can do better with a better roster that fits his style. I don't even know if he deserves it, but I don't think most of the players deserve a shot any more either.

    I love the nuggets and do miss going to the playoffs and watching a winning team, and I was sick of all the one and dones too.

    Not gonna lie, I think our ownership is a joke. Don't think Ujiri was really all that good either, I think he realized the mistakes he made with contracts (MCGEE) and wanted to go back where he was comfortable.

    This team has fallen apart and it blows. I don't see the players playing hard enough to win 57 games without anyone besides Karl any more, and with the current roster I don't think it's possible either way. Karl had his time here and it ran his course, so I do kind of think it's time for the team to blow it up.
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  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houshmazode View Post
    You debunked it?

    You didn't debunk anything, you must have missed the part where his blocks would have only added to his PER because those have gone down since Shaw left too. And I just ignored the part about steals, because steals are not even close to being an important part of a center's game. Those go mostly to guards because they're on the ball a lot more often and to forwards because they're in between the post and 3 pt line in position to pick off passes, not down in the post and paint like centers. Being the knowledgeable guy you are about situational basketball (sarcasm), I figured you would have known that. In no way does bringing up steals in regards to PER help your argument.

    The only reason you're saying it's kind of pointless to discuss with me is because you've lost, you have no argument and you're grasping at some pretty sad straws (seriously, steals?). You tried to use the excuse that his blocks going down less than 1 a game really didn't mean much earlier. Hibbert averages .4 steals per game for his career, and even then he had/has .2 this year and .4 last year, down from .5 to .5, which again, doesn't help your argument at all, it hurts it. And I'm not even saying steals are important when discussin a center, because they're not. Your process of debating this is mindboggling, dude.
    You obviously have no idea what the statistics mean. You're a stat line watcher, which is fine. For example PER would be better if a C had 1 block in garbage time against bench players, than one who altered 12 shots against starting caliber players, but didnt get a block, simply because the formula only uses that statistic. It is flawed, and you are using it as your guiding point. Essentially your argument is flawed from the start. You scoff at FT%, not realizing the fact he shoots a good FT% allows him to be in the game in critical situations especially at the end of games, because he can get fouled and make his FTs. This is massive towards a teams success, but you laugh at it. You have no idea what the stats entail, it's pointless because you don't understand Basketball.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houshmazode View Post
    Yea. It just sucks that it's come to this overall.

    I was in the boat that Shaw needed to be fired for a while, but I do think he can do better with a better roster that fits his style. I don't even know if he deserves it, but I don't think most of the players deserve a shot any more either.

    I love the nuggets and do miss going to the playoffs and watching a winning team, and I was sick of all the one and dones too.

    Not gonna lie, I think our ownership is a joke. Don't think Ujiri was really all that good either, I think he realized the mistakes he made with contracts (MCGEE) and wanted to go back where he was comfortable.

    This team has fallen apart and it blows. I don't see the players playing hard enough to win 57 games without anyone besides Karl any more, and with the current roster I don't think it's possible either way. Karl had his time here and it ran his course, so I do kind of think it's time for the team to blow it up.
    I am in the same boat you're in with these points. CP's coming.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco51 View Post
    I am in the same boat you're in with these points. CP's coming.
    Good debating with you.
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  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by the0rangecrush View Post
    You obviously have no idea what the statistics mean. You're a stat line watcher, which is fine. For example PER would be better if a C had 1 block in garbage time against bench players, than one who altered 12 shots against starting caliber players, but didnt get a block, simply because the formula only uses that statistic. It is flawed, and you are using it as your guiding point. Essentially your argument is flawed from the start. You scoff at FT%, not realizing the fact he shoots a good FT% allows him to be in the game in critical situations especially at the end of games, because he can get fouled and make his FTs. This is massive towards a teams success, but you laugh at it. You have no idea what the stats entail, it's pointless because you don't understand Basketball.
    If my argument is flawed, you had nor argument to begin with. Go ahead and explain your reasoning for using steals as one of the big 3 stats for a big man. I could use a good laugh. Also, you even said yourself PER ignores blocks, now you're saying that it includes blocks but it shouldn't count because he could alter shots and be better. Right.

    And congratulations, you know the phrase situational basketball. Yet your whole argument begun with you using improvements in a couple stats and "well his rebounds, points and blocks didn't go down that much" but you fail to realize that he's had a lot more time playing in garbage time this year. The Pacers aren't a playoff team at the moment, and Hibbert isn't an impact player pushing them towards the playoffs like he was when Shaw was there.

    You can stop now, or you can keep embarrassing yourself with your contradictions and faulty arguments. Up to you.
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  6. #186
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    Karl won with a defensive team in Seattle. Won here with Melo preferring a half court game. Then once taking the parts given as part of the Melo trade he won with a very focused run style. Three arguably different styles. Good coaches win and bad coaches lose.

    If Shaw has some system, what is it? If it's some kind of half court playoff ball system we should get rid a Lawson ASAP. His style is push the ball. In a half court set even though he can get around his man he's not a guy to challenge bigs which is why unless the lane is wide open he's going to force a pass rather than take it up. He's probably the biggest liability on the D end in a half court game especially in the playoffs. Teams look to either post him up or target him in the pick and roll. For as quick as he is he doesn't stay in front of his man. When is the last time he took a charge?

    End of the day every coach would like a dream team but at some point you go with what you got. What we have is not the best and not the worst. The rest of the league playing all different styles wants a lot of the pieces we have. Are they all wrong? Or is our one coach a joke? It's clear our coach is a joke and not hard to believe that our amateur GM and nepotism president aren't going to be to quick to fire the coach they hand picked to replace the HOF and coach of the year coach.

    Karl had a complete team overhaul when we lost Melo and he kept winning. It's unfortunate he chose to do that instead of lose and get a pat on the back like Shaw is being given.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houshmazode View Post
    If my argument is flawed, you had nor argument to begin with. Go ahead and explain your reasoning for using steals as one of the big 3 stats for a big man. I could use a good laugh. Also, you even said yourself PER ignores blocks, now you're saying that it includes blocks but it shouldn't count because he could alter shots and be better. Right.

    And congratulations, you know the phrase situational basketball. Yet your whole argument begun with you using improvements in a couple stats and "well his rebounds, points and blocks didn't go down that much" but you fail to realize that he's had a lot more time playing in garbage time this year. The Pacers aren't a playoff team at the moment, and Hibbert isn't an impact player pushing them towards the playoffs like he was when Shaw was there.

    You can stop now, or you can keep embarrassing yourself with your contradictions and faulty arguments. Up to you.
    I never used steals to argue anything. I brought then up to explain how PER is calculated. So way to yet again prove you have no idea what the stats mean that you're using. Way to go.

    A lot more garbage time? Oh you know this or are you simply pulling it out of your behind. Cuz guess what they're a 1.5 games out of the 8 seed. Also, FYI their main issue is not having Paul George not Hibbert.

    The one embarrassing themselves is you, but go ahead keep playing the part of the fool.

  8. #188
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    A good coach can get the most out of his players, despite their weaknesses

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaOrange View Post
    Karl won with a defensive team in Seattle. Won here with Melo preferring a half court game. Then once taking the parts given as part of the Melo trade he won with a very focused run style. Three arguably different styles. Good coaches win and bad coaches lose.

    If Shaw has some system, what is it? If it's some kind of half court playoff ball system we should get rid a Lawson ASAP. His style is push the ball. In a half court set even though he can get around his man he's not a guy to challenge bigs which is why unless the lane is wide open he's going to force a pass rather than take it up. He's probably the biggest liability on the D end in a half court game especially in the playoffs. Teams look to either post him up or target him in the pick and roll. For as quick as he is he doesn't stay in front of his man. When is the last time he took a charge?

    End of the day every coach would like a dream team but at some point you go with what you got. What we have is not the best and not the worst. The rest of the league playing all different styles wants a lot of the pieces we have. Are they all wrong? Or is our one coach a joke? It's clear our coach is a joke and not hard to believe that our amateur GM and nepotism president aren't going to be to quick to fire the coach they hand picked to replace the HOF and coach of the year coach.

    Karl had a complete team overhaul when we lost Melo and he kept winning. It's unfortunate he chose to do that instead of lose and get a pat on the back like Shaw is being given.
    I think somehow you debate some of my points but we seem to disagree on what it all means.

    Lawson does need to be moved because he doesn't make sense in this system. It doesn't make him a bad player. It just makes him a bad fit.

    Yes Karl adjusted his style to fit the players and got the most out of them. Good on him. But as we say over and over again when it came to the playoffs that system doesn't work. I don't see why you can't get that. Who cares if Karl can get 57 wins out of a bunk roster if it doesn't work when it counts the most?

    Yes Shaw is not going to just magically get a dream team either. But as Housh said the roster didn't make sense to match with him in the first place. Personally I wanted a roster overhaul from day one. They tried to make it fit for two years and we see the results. But I don't want Shaw to adapt to the players like Karl did and win 57 games. Not if that system is going to end in the same result as Karl in the playoffs. I wanted Shaw to run the half court defensive minded system he had in Indiana. Lawson, McGee and Faried and most of the rest of the roster wanted no part of that. They were having fun in Karls system and thought it worked. Even though in reality it didn't. That's on the players not Shaw. I'll say it again. I don't want Shaw to adapt that style just because it works during regular season. I want him to bring the Pacers attitude to Denver even if it means a roster overhaul.

    I think we can all agree if parts aren't moved then yes Shaw makes absolutely no sense. But I think they are starting to overhaul that roster and give him a chance. You can view it as a Shaw weakness and thats fine. Maybe it is. But I want to see him try to run his style with players willing to do it. And I think that can be done. I think the current roster refused to play for him from the get go. So he was fighting an uphill battle to change the culture.

    I don't think he is a joke at all. I think he is a second year coach showing second year experience. I think you demand too much from the get go. We may not get a superstar. But a top 10 pick or two should bring in better players than what we have now. Along with Nurkic developing and bringing in some free agents who are willing to work with Shaw. I have to believe that Indiana players can influence their friends decisions every bit as much as the former Nuggets can do damage by bashing him. And players do talk to get a feel for a coach.

    We really have to stop comparing Shaw in his second year to Karl in his 30th year. It's apples to oranges.

    Shaw may ultimately fail. And I'll eat crow. But I'm not giving up in year two. You have to hold the players accountable. You also have to hold the Front office accountable for not fully committing to a plan which made sense which was to overhaul the roster and let Shaw make it his roster. Instead of forcing him to work with Karls team. You see it in every sport where media says so and so only one with his predecessors players. Or so and so needs to wait until he makes the roster his.

    College football is a great example with Saban and Meyer. They recruited and won with their players. Not what was in place before they got there.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenverBlood View Post
    I think somehow you debate some of my points but we seem to disagree on what it all means.

    Lawson does need to be moved because he doesn't make sense in this system. It doesn't make him a bad player. It just makes him a bad fit.

    Yes Karl adjusted his style to fit the players and got the most out of them. Good on him. But as we say over and over again when it came to the playoffs that system doesn't work. I don't see why you can't get that. Who cares if Karl can get 57 wins out of a bunk roster if it doesn't work when it counts the most?

    Yes Shaw is not going to just magically get a dream team either. But as Housh said the roster didn't make sense to match with him in the first place. Personally I wanted a roster overhaul from day one. They tried to make it fit for two years and we see the results. But I don't want Shaw to adapt to the players like Karl did and win 57 games. Not if that system is going to end in the same result as Karl in the playoffs. I wanted Shaw to run the half court defensive minded system he had in Indiana. Lawson, McGee and Faried and most of the rest of the roster wanted no part of that. They were having fun in Karls system and thought it worked. Even though in reality it didn't. That's on the players not Shaw. I'll say it again. I don't want Shaw to adapt that style just because it works during regular season. I want him to bring the Pacers attitude to Denver even if it means a roster overhaul.

    I think we can all agree if parts aren't moved then yes Shaw makes absolutely no sense. But I think they are starting to overhaul that roster and give him a chance. You can view it as a Shaw weakness and thats fine. Maybe it is. But I want to see him try to run his style with players willing to do it. And I think that can be done. I think the current roster refused to play for him from the get go. So he was fighting an uphill battle to change the culture.

    I don't think he is a joke at all. I think he is a second year coach showing second year experience. I think you demand too much from the get go. We may not get a superstar. But a top 10 pick or two should bring in better players than what we have now. Along with Nurkic developing and bringing in some free agents who are willing to work with Shaw. I have to believe that Indiana players can influence their friends decisions every bit as much as the former Nuggets can do damage by bashing him. And players do talk to get a feel for a coach.

    We really have to stop comparing Shaw in his second year to Karl in his 30th year. It's apples to oranges.

    Shaw may ultimately fail. And I'll eat crow. But I'm not giving up in year two. You have to hold the players accountable. You also have to hold the Front office accountable for not fully committing to a plan which made sense which was to overhaul the roster and let Shaw make it his roster. Instead of forcing him to work with Karls team. You see it in every sport where media says so and so only one with his predecessors players. Or so and so needs to wait until he makes the roster his.

    College football is a great example with Saban and Meyer. They recruited and won with their players. Not what was in place before they got there.
    Well Urban took over Utah and went 10-2 his 1st season, and went undefeated his 2nd. He went 9-3 his first season at Florida, and won the NC his 2nd year in 06. He also led Ohio State to an undefeated season his 1st year, but they were sanctioned.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by the0rangecrush View Post
    Well Urban took over Utah and went 10-2 his 1st season, and went undefeated his 2nd. He went 9-3 his first season at Florida, and won the NC his 2nd year in 06. He also led Ohio State to an undefeated season his 1st year, but they were sanctioned.
    Yeah because he had top 5 recruiting classes his first two years and the Big 10 stinks.

    But Saban is a better example. He took over a dump fire at Alabama. Went 6-6 his first year with Shula's players.

    Second season he took 10 impact freshmen, the most in history, and went to 12-1 only losing to Meyers undefeated Gators who won the national title.

    Harbaugh isn't going to do anything much in Michigan right away. But he will in 2-3 years.

    I understand patience with Shaw is wearing thin. I just think it's absurd to give up on a coach in his second season. It takes longer than that to build a roster.

    Heck it took Lebron two seasons to win a ring in Miami with a loaded roster. Though I'll admit NBA finals season one is a heck of a lot better than 20-36. But now look at Spoeltra without Lebron and an always injured Wade. Suddenly he can't get more out of his roster.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenverBlood View Post
    Yeah because he had top 5 recruiting classes his first two years and the Big 10 stinks.

    But Saban is a better example. He took over a dump fire at Alabama. Went 6-6 his first year with Shula's players.

    Second season he took 10 impact freshmen, the most in history, and went to 12-1 only losing to Meyers undefeated Gators who won the national title.

    Harbaugh isn't going to do anything much in Michigan right away. But he will in 2-3 years.

    I understand patience with Shaw is wearing thin. I just think it's absurd to give up on a coach in his second season. It takes longer than that to build a roster.

    Heck it took Lebron two seasons to win a ring in Miami with a loaded roster. Though I'll admit NBA finals season one is a heck of a lot better than 20-36. But now look at Spoeltra without Lebron and an always injured Wade. Suddenly he can't get more out of his roster.
    I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying Meyer is the king of instant success.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by the0rangecrush View Post
    I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying Meyer is the king of instant success.
    Yeah that may have been a bad example.

    I probably sound ridiculous saying Shaw isn't on Karls level yet we were right to fire Karl. I just think it's a little more complex than what's easy to see on the surface.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenverBlood View Post
    Yeah that may have been a bad example.

    I probably sound ridiculous saying Shaw isn't on Karls level yet we were right to fire Karl. I just think it's a little more complex than what's easy to see on the surface.
    I'm not disagreeing, and yes I think Shaw should get another year. That said I need to see something in the form of improvement somewhere. I also need the woe is me press conferences to stop.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by the0rangecrush View Post
    I'm not disagreeing, and yes I think Shaw should get another year. That said I need to see something in the form of improvement somewhere. I also need the woe is me press conferences to stop.
    Well I don't hear the press conferences out here. Just read the ESPN articles and follow Vic Lombardi on twitter. He seems to still like Shaw. He was a big time fan of the moves last week.

    But it's a catch 22. You want improvement to show he is making a difference. While at the same time wanting the team to tank for a high draft pick. If they start improving we will feel better about the direction Shaw is taking us. But we may not get a difference maker.

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