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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenverBlood View Post
    Well I don't hear the press conferences out here. Just read the ESPN articles and follow Vic Lombardi on twitter. He seems to still like Shaw. He was a big time fan of the moves last week.

    But it's a catch 22. You want improvement to show he is making a difference. While at the same time wanting the team to tank for a high draft pick. If they start improving we will feel better about the direction Shaw is taking us. But we may not get a difference maker.
    That was one of the main reasons we let Karl go IMO. He simply wouldn't coach poorly enough to get us a high draft pick. Karl would at a minimum have his team in contention for the 8 seed, and picking in the 20s and rebuilding is an arduous task. People talk about how you need to tank to get stars, that's true in a sense, but the way the system is set up it's really hard. Look at Philly they have tanked for so long, and have yet to get the #1 overall, and have been forced to take injured guys. On the other foot Cleveland has the #1 every other year it seems. As bad has Denver has played recently they are still only in line for like 7th overall pick. I'd rather know we are moving in the right direction, then worry about playing the lottery.

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by the0rangecrush View Post
    That was one of the main reasons we let Karl go IMO. He simply wouldn't coach poorly enough to get us a high draft pick. Karl would at a minimum have his team in contention for the 8 seed, and picking in the 20s and rebuilding is an arduous task. People talk about how you need to tank to get stars, that's true in a sense, but the way the system is set up it's really hard. Look at Philly they have tanked for so long, and have yet to get the #1 overall, and have been forced to take injured guys. On the other foot Cleveland has the #1 every other year it seems. As bad has Denver has played recently they are still only in line for like 7th overall pick. I'd rather know we are moving in the right direction, then worry about playing the lottery.
    It is a risk. I was just reading though how it's largely Philly's fault and that they suck at tanking. ESPN mock said how they've had by far the worst roster two consecutive years and yet it looks like they won't have the worst record either year compared to teams trying to win. Although I'm not sure how much the Knicks are actually trying to win.

    I kind of agree Lottery can screw you over. And really I don't like the system other than to not award tanking. The Cavs thing has been bogus. But right now we are gauranteed a top 10. Which is higher than anything we have had since Melo.

    Though 7-8 isn't quite as high as I would like. I would like Okafor (don't think I spelled that right), Towns or Caulley stine. Though I'm not sure that makes sense with Nurkic. So I agree there can be cons to tanking.

    But we do need to try to rebuild through draft not free agency.

    I do agree with Mega Orange that Denver is not a very appealing landing spot for FA's. However that's acting like it ever has been. Even when we were competitive we still lost Melo and stars weren't pining to come to Denver. But big names also don't move as often in NBA as NFL. I can agree to blame the front office. But Shaw didn't make an unattractive landing spot unattractive.

    I guess I would like the Karl era to be over with including players similar to what Elway has done with the Broncos. Elways has drastically made over the Broncos and it shows. With the most impactful change being Tebow to Manning.

    I would like to do the same at least through the draft with the Nuggets. Since we obviously aren't going to talk Lebron into coming to Denver.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenverBlood View Post
    It is a risk. I was just reading though how it's largely Philly's fault and that they suck at tanking. ESPN mock said how they've had by far the worst roster two consecutive years and yet it looks like they won't have the worst record either year compared to teams trying to win. Although I'm not sure how much the Knicks are actually trying to win.

    I kind of agree Lottery can screw you over. And really I don't like the system other than to not award tanking. The Cavs thing has been bogus. But right now we are gauranteed a top 10. Which is higher than anything we have had since Melo.

    Though 7-8 isn't quite as high as I would like. I would like Okafor (don't think I spelled that right), Towns or Caulley stine. Though I'm not sure that makes sense with Nurkic. So I agree there can be cons to tanking.

    But we do need to try to rebuild through draft not free agency.

    I do agree with Mega Orange that Denver is not a very appealing landing spot for FA's. However that's acting like it ever has been. Even when we were competitive we still lost Melo and stars weren't pining to come to Denver. But big names also don't move as often in NBA as NFL. I can agree to blame the front office. But Shaw didn't make an unattractive landing spot unattractive.

    I guess I would like the Karl era to be over with including players similar to what Elway has done with the Broncos. Elways has drastically made over the Broncos and it shows. With the most impactful change being Tebow to Manning.

    I would like to do the same at least through the draft with the Nuggets. Since we obviously aren't going to talk Lebron into coming to Denver.
    I agree Okafor would be really good, and I'm a little biased as a Duke fan. I agree that we should go after a big, and Nurk is showing potential as a legit 5.

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenverBlood View Post
    I think somehow you debate some of my points but we seem to disagree on what it all means.

    Lawson does need to be moved because he doesn't make sense in this system. It doesn't make him a bad player. It just makes him a bad fit.

    Yes Karl adjusted his style to fit the players and got the most out of them. Good on him. But as we say over and over again when it came to the playoffs that system doesn't work. I don't see why you can't get that. Who cares if Karl can get 57 wins out of a bunk roster if it doesn't work when it counts the most?

    Yes Shaw is not going to just magically get a dream team either. But as Housh said the roster didn't make sense to match with him in the first place. Personally I wanted a roster overhaul from day one. They tried to make it fit for two years and we see the results. But I don't want Shaw to adapt to the players like Karl did and win 57 games. Not if that system is going to end in the same result as Karl in the playoffs. I wanted Shaw to run the half court defensive minded system he had in Indiana. Lawson, McGee and Faried and most of the rest of the roster wanted no part of that. They were having fun in Karls system and thought it worked. Even though in reality it didn't. That's on the players not Shaw. I'll say it again. I don't want Shaw to adapt that style just because it works during regular season. I want him to bring the Pacers attitude to Denver even if it means a roster overhaul.

    I think we can all agree if parts aren't moved then yes Shaw makes absolutely no sense. But I think they are starting to overhaul that roster and give him a chance. You can view it as a Shaw weakness and thats fine. Maybe it is. But I want to see him try to run his style with players willing to do it. And I think that can be done. I think the current roster refused to play for him from the get go. So he was fighting an uphill battle to change the culture.

    I don't think he is a joke at all. I think he is a second year coach showing second year experience. I think you demand too much from the get go. We may not get a superstar. But a top 10 pick or two should bring in better players than what we have now. Along with Nurkic developing and bringing in some free agents who are willing to work with Shaw. I have to believe that Indiana players can influence their friends decisions every bit as much as the former Nuggets can do damage by bashing him. And players do talk to get a feel for a coach.

    We really have to stop comparing Shaw in his second year to Karl in his 30th year. It's apples to oranges.

    Shaw may ultimately fail. And I'll eat crow. But I'm not giving up in year two. You have to hold the players accountable. You also have to hold the Front office accountable for not fully committing to a plan which made sense which was to overhaul the roster and let Shaw make it his roster. Instead of forcing him to work with Karls team. You see it in every sport where media says so and so only one with his predecessors players. Or so and so needs to wait until he makes the roster his.

    College football is a great example with Saban and Meyer. They recruited and won with their players. Not what was in place before they got there.
    So don't compare Shaw to Karl...do compare Shaw to college football coaches? I'm pretty sure Karl and Shaw are more apples to apples than college football coaches to Shaw.

    I was okay with the Karl firing, in part because just maybe it was time for some new blood. We failed at hiring new blood.

    If you could start with a blank slate tomorrow, hand pick pieces, pick of all-stars, and the only forced choice was Karl or Shaw who would you take?

    I can't imagine why anyone would pick Shaw. Why? Because of his success in Indiana? Who cares about a team from the Eastern Conference where sub .500 teams make the playoffs. Because of his tenure with the Nuggets? I certainly hope not.

    If a system transition was the problem then I could see losing some more games as we make the move but not a complete pitfall like we are seeing now. We don't have an all-start...I'm sure Karl would have liked one too. If that was the big player system problem seems to me we should have kept Karl and freed up all the cap space we'll have now.

    At the end of the day Shaw hasn't taken a step back while he implements a grand scheme. He's just plain bad and is taking this team several leaps back. If it's inside out game and you traded Moz because Nurk is a building block then I would rather lose getting Nurk the ball before yelling at Chandler to shoot more 3's (per Hasting during the Milwaukee game Shaw was telling Chandler to shoot threes). How do you know if your guys aren't a good fit if you don't run you system? I see the exact same offense Karl had minus solid screens and less 3's. In what was supposed to be a more half court focused style with less possessions we're hoisting up 3 more 3pt attempts a game than any of Karl's teams ever did. If you want to take it by average we're shooting 5 more 3's a game than Karl teams averaged. We had more of an inside game with Karl than we do now. Heck, when we had Nene we went inside to him quite a bit he just preferred to do finger rolls over dunks.

    Shaw should be fired before he taints these young players. They can't be learning a thing watching Ty play no D and the rest of the team resorting to three pointers. Even Nurk who was mister box out when he arrived is getting lazy. His strong Euro footwork and fundamentals aren't being developed because his job is to set screens and run back after bad 3pt attempts.

  5. #200
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    I didn't compare Shaw to college football coaches.

    I listed some college football coaches of examples of why it's flat stupid to bail on a coach midway through his second season. It takes time to build a team towards what fits them. Way more than what you have patience for. Saban didn't when with Shula's players. Saban won with his players. That fit his scheme. He wasn't a bad coach because he went 6-6 with the players given to him.

    And seriously? You ask me who I would take if we had some superstars? Hello clueless. Karl spent half a decade with Melo. At one point he had Melo, AI and Billups. And still couldn't get out of the first round. He did once. So no my opinion doesn't change.

    I'm about done with this discussion. Your impatience and quick assumptions of Shaw are embarrassing. I bet Bama fans are glad they didn't bail on Saban after 6-6.

    Since you want a basketball comparison. I bet Spurs fans are glad the organization didn't give up on Poppavich after 17-47.

    Poppavich did go to the conference semifinals second season but that was after he drafted an all time great in Duncan.

    That's all I'm asking for. Is give us a chance to get some legit players on the court. This roster is not legit just because of what karl did with it.

    I'm not going to give Shaw forever. But certainly more than just two years. Bailing in his second year sends an even worse message to players and turns you into an NBA joke when you have a constant coaching carousel.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenverBlood View Post
    I didn't compare Shaw to college football coaches.

    I listed some college football coaches of examples of why it's flat stupid to bail on a coach midway through his second season. It takes time to build a team towards what fits them. Way more than what you have patience for. Saban didn't when with Shula's players. Saban won with his players. That fit his scheme. He wasn't a bad coach because he went 6-6 with the players given to him.

    And seriously? You ask me who I would take if we had some superstars? Hello clueless. Karl spent half a decade with Melo. At one point he had Melo, AI and Billups. And still couldn't get out of the first round. He did once. So no my opinion doesn't change.

    I'm about done with this discussion. Your impatience and quick assumptions of Shaw are embarrassing. I bet Bama fans are glad they didn't bail on Saban after 6-6.

    Since you want a basketball comparison. I bet Spurs fans are glad the organization didn't give up on Poppavich after 17-47.

    Poppavich did go to the conference semifinals second season but that was after he drafted an all time great in Duncan.

    That's all I'm asking for. Is give us a chance to get some legit players on the court. This roster is not legit just because of what karl did with it.

    I'm not going to give Shaw forever. But certainly more than just two years. Bailing in his second year sends an even worse message to players and turns you into an NBA joke when you have a constant coaching carousel.
    Pop had a lot more going for him than just Duncan.

    You're comparing college football to NBA basketball. Amateurs to Pros. Hardly a template for a valid argument. It's not even worth it to break down how silly comparing those two is.

    Anyway, we'll see what happens. I think Shaw is showing nothing. I see regressing not progressing and I don't think you have to have all your ideal players to see progress. Its gonna be frustrating when these guys go to other teams and are successful while we're still making excuses for Shaw. That will happen.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaOrange View Post
    Pop had a lot more going for him than just Duncan.

    You're comparing college football to NBA basketball. Amateurs to Pros. Hardly a template for a valid argument. It's not even worth it to break down how silly comparing those two is.

    Anyway, we'll see what happens. I think Shaw is showing nothing. I see regressing not progressing and I don't think you have to have all your ideal players to see progress. Its gonna be frustrating when these guys go to other teams and are successful while we're still making excuses for Shaw. That will happen.
    But see that's where your logic is flawed.

    Sure there is talent on the roster. Just not the talent you seem to think it is.

    Every individual piece works great as bench support. You really think afflalo is getting in portlands top 5? If I'm not mistaken Mozgov isn't a a starter in Cleveland either.

    And Philly trading for Mcgee? Well come in its philly.

    They can all support a team and be successful. They just don't glue together as a quality roster.

    And I'll correct you again. I'm not comparing college football to the NBA. But coaching is coaching. The point I'm making about building your own roster is valid in every sport at every level.

  8. #203
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    http://streamable.com/o2qy

    Oh god, that was hilarious. I'm loving Nurkic

    2018 Adopted Bronco: Phillip Lindsay
    2013 Adopt-a-poster: #87Birdman, AZ Snake Fan,
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  9. #204
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    It seems the Nuggets are trading players in an effort to make the team better? In other words, they need better players to build a winning team...really?

    Well, IMO, they are going about it the wrong way. What the Nuggets needs is a coaching staff that could teach players to play defense, could teach players to set up and execute plays, could coach a moving team (instead of "shoot the ball") and treat players with respect and dignity!

    Unless, of course, the upper management has other plans for keeping the present coaching staff? Like hoping to get a first round pick?

  10. #205
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    For you folks who want Shaw gone, I have one question for you, who are we gonna get?

  11. #206
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    Woody Paige said something on the sports show that I think makes sense.

    The Nuggets have gotten Shaw to buy into tanking. As long as the team continues to lose Shaw will be back next year, with a lot of cap room and in all likelihood a top 4 pick.

    The moves that the team is making and their stance behind Shaw make this seem more than plausible.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenverBlood View Post
    But see that's where your logic is flawed.

    Sure there is talent on the roster. Just not the talent you seem to think it is.

    Every individual piece works great as bench support. You really think afflalo is getting in portlands top 5? If I'm not mistaken Mozgov isn't a a starter in Cleveland either.

    And Philly trading for Mcgee? Well come in its philly.

    They can all support a team and be successful. They just don't glue together as a quality roster.

    And I'll correct you again. I'm not comparing college football to the NBA. But coaching is coaching. The point I'm making about building your own roster is valid in every sport at every level.
    Look at the Detroit Pistons pre Van Gundy. They were notorious for firing coaches after 1-2 years and look where it got them....

    Coaches need at least 3 years.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Experience View Post
    Woody Paige said something on the sports show that I think makes sense.

    The Nuggets have gotten Shaw to buy into tanking. As long as the team continues to lose Shaw will be back next year, with a lot of cap room and in all likelihood a top 4 pick.

    The moves that the team is making and their stance behind Shaw make this seem more than plausible.
    I actually was thinking this yesterday but I wasn't sure if a coach would buy into tanking. But I guess if they ensure him his job is safe then it would make sense.

    I just don't understand why others don't want to embrace the tank. It makes perfect sense and I agree the moves appear to be remolding the roster. As they should have done two years ago. I just don't know why it took so long.

    As I said yesterday wanting the coach to make improvements and get the team to progress is only harmful to the team at this point. Because that would just make our draft position worse.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenverBlood View Post
    I actually was thinking this yesterday but I wasn't sure if a coach would buy into tanking. But I guess if they ensure him his job is safe then it would make sense.

    I just don't understand why others don't want to embrace the tank. It makes perfect sense and I agree the moves appear to be remolding the roster. As they should have done two years ago. I just don't know why it took so long.

    As I said yesterday wanting the coach to make improvements and get the team to progress is only harmful to the team at this point. Because that would just make our draft position worse.
    Sometimes you have to take 2 steps back. Remember, San Antonio tanked big time to get Duncan and look how that turned out for them. If the Nuggets can get into the top 4, they have a 12% chance of winning the lottery. Okafor would be a beast here, but more realistically Stan Johnson would be a great fit here also.

    Boston did the same in 06 and traded for Garnett and Ray Allen and won a title the next year.

    Tanking provides a ton of flexibility.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenverBlood View Post
    But see that's where your logic is flawed.

    Sure there is talent on the roster. Just not the talent you seem to think it is.

    Every individual piece works great as bench support. You really think afflalo is getting in portlands top 5? If I'm not mistaken Mozgov isn't a a starter in Cleveland either.

    And Philly trading for Mcgee? Well come in its philly.

    They can all support a team and be successful. They just don't glue together as a quality roster.

    And I'll correct you again. I'm not comparing college football to the NBA. But coaching is coaching. The point I'm making about building your own roster is valid in every sport at every level.
    Mozgov is starting, no sure if he would be if Varajao wasn't injured but I expect he would be. He's bigger and what they wanted was size in the middle to anchor their D.

    At the end of the day, regardless of system, is Shaw getting the most out of the talent he does have? No, and it's not even close. Again, last night we took far too many threes and after we missed those threes didn't get back on D. Our PG play is actually quite pathetic especially on D. While I initially liked the Jameer acquisition it's pretty clear that having two undersized guards doesn't work well if there is no plan on O. Shaw one ups the problem by playing them together. So now we have two guys that can get to the rim but can't challenge anyone around the rim...so it's pointless.

    Coaching at different levels and getting players is very different, it's why some guys don't want to jump to the pros!
    College players (in theory) don't get paid to play. At the professional level it's not always about winning, it's about getting paid. Some guys will take less to win, some guys just want to get paid, and for some it's a mix. While there is a scholarship cap in college that doesn't prevent you from getting the 20 best players, there isn't really a cap on talent level. In the pros, because of the salary cap, you basically have a cap on talent level. The only way around that is drafting well and in drafting you only somewhat can get what you want, it's not a free for all. Even if recruiting FA's is key do you think guys want to play for Shaw at this point. He's losing and losing ugly. JR Smith would probably love to play for Shaw because Shaw would let him shoot any shot whenever he wants. Is a bunch of JR type players what would make Shaw's system work? He's alienated a pretty classy veteran like Andre Miller. He's openly admitting he's trying to read books to know how to relate to his players. He whines to the media about his players not playing hard. If he says anything about hot flashes I'm pretty sure he has menopause!

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