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  1. #16
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    Not sure this article is calling the players dumb, and I'm not sure I would label the defense as dumb. However, I surely wouldn't consider them smart either. I hate to praise either team, but the Seahawks and Patriots have a very intelligent defense. Seattle basically read our diary prior to the super bowl. I have to give them credit the way they studied our formations and had an answer for everything we wanted to do (I realized the D Line had a part in it, but the back 7 impressed me). The Patriots consistently have some of the smartest LBs in the league.

    When I see things like guys biting on a 8 yard curl by a TE (vs Indy) when it's 3rd and 15+, I question the intelligence/ situational football knowledge of the players first, then the coaching staff. That's just one play, but there's been numerous similar plays. I question the players, but also the coaching. On plays like infamous Rahim Moore debacle, his football knowledge should kick in and say stay deep, but I'd imagine a good coaching staff should be telling everyone to keep everything in front of them. However, I'm not sure that was taking place.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by lvbronx View Post
    I was watching The Sports Show on the Denver Post site yesterday and Les Shapiro told an interesting story about the Baltimore playoff loss.

    Shapiro said that the day after the game he was at a Nuggets game and George Karl called him over just to talk about the Broncos loss and how he couldn't believe the excuse Fox gave for running the clock out and not giving Manning a shot to pass for a first down in regulation. Fox said that the stats showed that the odds weren't in the Broncos favor. According to Shapiro, Karl pretty much said "screw the odds" and that when you have one of the best QBs in history, you throw the stats out and let the player play.

    Karl is a stats guy, but he's also a player guy and understands there are times when you don't go with the stats just because they are the stats.
    And yet Karl was fired for basically the same reason, inability to get over the hump in the playoffs. And how are the Nuggets doing now?

    I'm not against a change in the coaching staff but Kubiak(or anyone) is more likely to fail than put us over some imaginary hump. The guy had what was considered SB level talent in Texas and failed in the playoffs and went out 2-11!!!! All this talk about fire, kicking and screaming, and more heart is BS. Where was all of that at 2-11?

  3. #18
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    O/C on Elway's Super Bowl teams prove he is more than ready to take these guys over the hump!

    Gary Kubiak = All-time Broncos great!

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaOrange View Post
    And yet Karl was fired for basically the same reason, inability to get over the hump in the playoffs. And how are the Nuggets doing now?

    I'm not against a change in the coaching staff but Kubiak(or anyone) is more likely to fail than put us over some imaginary hump. The guy had what was considered SB level talent in Texas and failed in the playoffs and went out 2-11!!!! All this talk about fire, kicking and screaming, and more heart is BS. Where was all of that at 2-11?
    What team are you talking about? SB level talent? Please...save it.

    The Colts play them twice every year and the Texans couldn't beat us in the year with Peyton out in Indy and we beat them with Dan Orlovsky, for crying out loud. They were never going too many places with Matt Schaub. Their D-line was good but their secondary and LB coverage was always susceptible and found trailing vs the likes of Emmanuel Sanders (in pre-season), T.Y.Hilton (almost always ), and even a guy like Donte Stallworth got behind them easily (on MNF vs Patriots in Foxboro, Luck's first year when the Texans last won the division from us).

    Their passing game, with the only threat Andre Johnson was one dimensional. Their run blocking and running game was good but in the playoffs, you run into teams like the Patriots, Ravens, Steelers in the AFC, all of whom stop the run first well and thus have to pass on them to win. No way were those guys SB level talent. Because of J.J.Watt, guys like Cushing etc. get some notoriety when they make a FEW plays here and there. Against bad O-lines, yes, their D-line causes havoc and makes a lot of plays but if you don't have much negative plays against them and handle their D-line, their LBs and DBs cannot hold up, period.
    Last edited by chad72; 02-12-2015 at 08:54 AM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad72 View Post
    What team are you talking about? SB level talent? Please...save it.

    The Colts play them twice every year and the Texans couldn't beat us in the year with Peyton out in Indy and we beat them with Dan Orlovsky, for crying out loud. They were never going too many places with Matt Schaub. Their D-line was good but their secondary and LB coverage was always susceptible and found trailing vs the likes of Emmanuel Sanders (in pre-season), T.Y.Hilton (almost always ), and even a guy like Donte Stallworth got behind them easily (on MNF vs Patriots in Foxboro, Luck's first year when the Texans last won the division from us).

    Their passing game, with the only threat Andre Johnson was one dimensional. Their run blocking and running game was good but in the playoffs, you run into teams like the Patriots, Ravens, Steelers in the AFC, all of whom stop the run first well and thus have to pass on them to win. No way were those guys SB level talent. Because of J.J.Watt, guys like Cushing etc. get some notoriety when they make a FEW plays here and there. Against bad O-lines, yes, their D-line causes havoc and makes a lot of plays but if you don't have much negative plays against them and handle their D-line, their LBs and DBs cannot hold up, period.
    Who was playing QB for the Texans that day in a loss on the road? Didn't you win on basically a last second play? Didn't you get soundly whooped that year in the first game when there was no Foster playing?

    I don't even know why you're here. I would say it's to bring unbiased educated decisions but that just got blown out of the water.

    FYI - Odds for 2012 12-1, Odds for 2013 16-1. Just to be clear, they were is the top of the NFL for odds to play in the Superbowl. Not a lock but expected to compete. Obviously if you are in those conversations you have talent. If your argument is Kubiak is walking in to more talent then no excuses, correct?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaOrange View Post
    Who was playing QB for the Texans that day in a loss on the road? Didn't you win on basically a last second play? Didn't you get soundly whooped that year in the first game when there was no Foster playing?

    I don't even know why you're here. I would say it's to bring unbiased educated decisions but that just got blown out of the water.

    FYI - Odds for 2012 12-1, Odds for 2013 16-1. Just to be clear, they were is the top of the NFL for odds to play in the Superbowl. Not a lock but expected to compete. Obviously if you are in those conversations you have talent. If your argument is Kubiak is walking in to more talent then no excuses, correct?
    You can follow the odds all you want. I follow my eyes when I watch them play the Colts and evaluate, period. They have always been a flawed team when compared to the elite ones (different than any team having a flaw). 2012 was a good year but they played a whole lot of cupcakes in their schedule.

    A good OL that can handle their DL has roasted them more often than not, it is not just an observation, it is a fact. They do not have many different ways to win a game like elite teams do, that is the reason people got carried away by the Texans hype. That contributes to them underachieving against good competition more often than not. Their QB carousel contributed to their 2-14 record that got them Clowney, you should know that by now. T.J.Yates, Schaub, Case Keenum etc. - none of them were going to get them to the promised land, unfortunately.

    Yes, Kubiak is walking into more talent. However, your LB and safety coverage in the middle with Wade Philips' system is going to be key especially if 5 rushers are sent more often leaving enough 1-on-1s across the board in the middle. Against a team like the Pats that may not take many shots outside the numbers, that is going to be key. That can be masked a bit with pressure but at some point, elite QBs will have their pickings if it is not shored up in a hurry.
    Last edited by chad72; 02-12-2015 at 01:53 PM.

  7. #22
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    I agree with those who thought the article dealt with the ineptness of the Broncos former coaches at having a game plan and preparing the players to play their opponent. I expect the new coaching staff will improve by having well planned out game plans prepared and preparing the players to execute this. I appreciated what Fox accomplished by righting the mess he stepped into from McDaniels. Game planning however was not his forte and Gase was poor as a well. Del Rio was like a flat vanilla coke. We have some very talented and smart players, but coaches are necessary even in the NFL to put it all together.

  8. #23
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    Fox got us away from neurotic mechanics of JMD yes. He got the team back on an even keel. And Manning kept Denver in the playoff picture.

    I think one of Fox bigger weaknesses were gametime decisions. I know that's not a huge percentage of his responsibility but I remember SO many plays that were challenged or Should have been challenged - or shouldn't have been that were so badly blundered it was embarrassing. I'd actually like to see stats on John Fox' Denver challenge percentage. .... but not just challenges. Kneeling when you have time to put points on the board.... going for it on 4th instead of kicking FGs. Just lots of things. And he claimed he was a percentages guy. Which made him ultimately - you guessed it ............ predictable.

    Fox was REALLY great at press conferences. He was usually pretty comfortable in front of the camera and could keep his even keel whether we won or lost. But that's one of the problems too. We need more emotion. At least that appears to be one of the big lacking factors the past couple years. Go out kicking and screaming - not like we did. Even keel and gentlemanly. Don't be 'that prepared' to talk to the press about a loss. Expect a win. Its hard to put your finger on - but Elway knows. He just knew we were maxing out with Fox.
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  9. #24
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    DEN lost because the players didn't have the fire in their bellies. That's not coaching, that's laziness on their part

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by HUMCALC View Post
    DEN lost because the players didn't have the fire in their bellies. That's not coaching, that's laziness on their part
    It's not that simple. That's not to say you're completely wrong though. Yes, the players definitely are culpable. But the coaches are too.

    History is littered with inspiring leaders able to get their followers to overachieve as a unit. And this is exactly what coaches aspire to. John Fox' credo obviously was wearing thin. By the end his message was probably in one ear out the other. It didn't worry players, it didn't move them, they knew what they were going to hear, and it wasn't going to be enough to get this team to the next level. And it certainly wasn't emotional enough to inspire the team to care enough to go out kicking and screaming if and when they 'go out'. Even the fans knew what they were going to hear at post game pressers from Fox. That's both the strength and the weakness of John Fox in my opinion [his even keel] I can't bee 100% sure this is even the main reason he's gone, but I really do think it's part of it at least.

    You have a better chance at better results bringing in a new inspirational message than changing out the majority of a roster. Talent is there, it's pretty well documented that Denver's roster has plenty of talent. What it lacks is intangible. And while we're at it, we're going to change a lot more than just the message.

    What am I saying? It's the coaches and the players jobs to care enough to fight to the end. This is pro football. Ultimately it's the player's job, but if the coach's message is not resonating enough to inspire the players to do better, than whether it's the coach's fault or not, it's time for him to go. There's plenty of areas I can point to where Fox seems to have come up short - and on the other hand where he excelled, but it's not about what's fair. It's about what's effective.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaOrange View Post
    And yet Karl was fired for basically the same reason, inability to get over the hump in the playoffs. And how are the Nuggets doing now?

    I'm not against a change in the coaching staff but Kubiak(or anyone) is more likely to fail than put us over some imaginary hump. The guy had what was considered SB level talent in Texas and failed in the playoffs and went out 2-11!!!! All this talk about fire, kicking and screaming, and more heart is BS. Where was all of that at 2-11?
    You know it's pretty bad when Karl is criticizing you for how you coach in the playoffs.

    And people need to educate themselves. Houston had 6 of their top players on IR early in the season that season, the same season that Kubiak had a stroke and was having health problems all season long.
    2019 Adopt-A-Bronco: Dr. Dre'Mont Jones

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by HUMCALC View Post
    DEN lost because the players didn't have the fire in their bellies. That's not coaching, that's laziness on their part
    I don't believe this at all, I don't believe in this "kicking and screaming" crap either. Players can only do what they are capable of doing. Them being mad about losing does nothing to suddenly make them a better player. Even if it did, it is pointless if the other team has made adjustments to stop what you're doing, but you're coaching staff is still kicking that dead horse hoping they can ride it off into the sunset. If anything kicking and screaming was a shot at our coaches not exploring other options during the game to win.

  13. #28
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    I think DEN also underestimated SEA

  14. #29
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    Misleading indicator. There may be a lot of factors behind it. Some may be coaching, but some may also relate to the type of roster you have.

    But "dumb" is kind of harsh!!!

    By the way, it may have some credence. Even though Seattle is just ahead of us on this measurement (and for the record, they went pretty far!!), they did make the dumbest call in history, didn't they????

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanDB View Post
    Misleading indicator. There may be a lot of factors behind it. Some may be coaching, but some may also relate to the type of roster you have.

    But "dumb" is kind of harsh!!!

    By the way, it may have some credence. Even though Seattle is just ahead of us on this measurement (and for the record, they went pretty far!!), they did make the dumbest call in history, didn't they????
    Indeed they did! Good one Can!

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