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  1. #1
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    Why the Kubiak/Manning "marriage" didn't work, by a guy who played for/with both

    Joel Dreesen was on 104.3 The Fan this morning talking about the fundamental difference between Manning & Kubiak that likely prevented them from working successfully with one another. Keep in mind I'm paraphrasing here but the gist of it was that Manning likes to look at the defense before every play and constantly shift the offense/play around to make sure everyone is in the right position and they get the best possible outcome on the play. Kubiak's philosophy is that even if the defense is giving you an uncomfortable look, you just run the play that's called and win the one-on-one match-ups, whether it's blocking or receiving or whatever.

    Although I doubt this is earth-shattering, I thought it was still some interesting stuff.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojo0730 View Post
    Joel Dreesen was on 104.3 The Fan this morning talking about the fundamental difference between Manning & Kubiak that likely prevented them from working successfully with one another. Keep in mind I'm paraphrasing here but the gist of it was that Manning likes to look at the defense before every play and constantly shift the offense/play around to make sure everyone is in the right position and they get the best possible outcome on the play. Kubiak's philosophy is that even if the defense is giving you an uncomfortable look, you just run the play that's called and win the one-on-one match-ups, whether it's blocking or receiving or whatever.

    Although I doubt this is earth-shattering, I thought it was still some interesting stuff.
    No, I actually believe that to be the biggest part of the Manning's decline this year.

    Admittedly, I was optimistic in preseason when Fox left and we brought in Kubiak, signed DT and changed our "tone."

    After the first Chiefs game I was less sure that the hybrid offense was something that would work when Kubiak admitted late in the game he let Manning do what Manning does. That was a big tell that both offensive styles were not just merging slowly but are more akin to oil and water. The GB game was the big surprise in the mix that seemed like maybe we had turned a corner until GB went and lost almost as spectacularly the following week.

    lot of fans and non-fans alike seem to really like the age and declining strength part of the Manning story. I am less inclined. I am pretty sure he won't be here next year. He will get picked up by a QB starved team and it will be on the terms that he runs his offense. It won't be the Manning of 2013 or even before that but it won't be the Manning of 2015 either. Even at this age and place in his life, he isn't that bad.

    Manning's greatest asset, in Kubiak's offense that he was hired to run, is ultimately his greatest weakness. Injuries, age, strength, all have their part but Manning is not a QB for this style-offense. That really sums it up.

  3. #3
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    For a long time, Manning favored balanced formations with no motion in order to clarify what he saw pre-snap. The volume of offense he could call at LOS was low, but effective, given his ability to recognize what he saw most of the time as well as his ability to communicate.

    Kubiak wants to dictate through formations and use a script which informs playcalling for the rest of the game. His long play calls don't lend themselves to no huddle, but the volume which can be sent in to a huddle is very great. Bradshaw called his own plays, Montana didn't. Manning called his own plays, Elway didn't. Starr called his own plays, Graham didn't.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  4. #4
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    I still just think Peyton is too old.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mora View Post
    I still just think Peyton is too old.
    Some people just can't accept this. I still can't believe that a healthy manning will play any better than what he had been the last season and a half.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rastic View Post
    No, I actually believe that to be the biggest part of the Manning's decline this year.

    Admittedly, I was optimistic in preseason when Fox left and we brought in Kubiak, signed DT and changed our "tone."

    After the first Chiefs game I was less sure that the hybrid offense was something that would work when Kubiak admitted late in the game he let Manning do what Manning does. That was a big tell that both offensive styles were not just merging slowly but are more akin to oil and water. The GB game was the big surprise in the mix that seemed like maybe we had turned a corner until GB went and lost almost as spectacularly the following week.

    lot of fans and non-fans alike seem to really like the age and declining strength part of the Manning story. I am less inclined. I am pretty sure he won't be here next year. He will get picked up by a QB starved team and it will be on the terms that he runs his offense. It won't be the Manning of 2013 or even before that but it won't be the Manning of 2015 either. Even at this age and place in his life, he isn't that bad.

    Manning's greatest asset, in Kubiak's offense that he was hired to run, is ultimately his greatest weakness. Injuries, age, strength, all have their part but Manning is not a QB for this style-offense. That really sums it up.

    Yeah. There is a lot to that. Back when Manning was with the Colts I made the joke several times that their biggest weakness was that you could sack the Offensive Coordinator. Of course that's very simplistic, and I was joking, but it holds a kernel of truth. Manning gonna Manning, for better or for worse.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mora View Post
    I still just think Peyton is too old.
    Well, he is too old. Or perhaps not "old", but I think the neck surgeries and these nagging injuries have definitely caught up to him.

    Having said that, I do believe this was a doomed relationship from the start, and we probably should have been more aware of that from the beginning. Even if Manning were healthy I don't think he would succeed in this offense, at least in a way we're accustomed to seeing. It's just not who he is.

  8. #8
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    Man people are so quick to just throw out the old excuse. Green bay game Manning was damned near perfect running kubes offense and people were on board. He gets hurt the next week during the game and plays through it (blame to go around for keeping him in a game in which he is hurt) then we get killed by KC in a game manning never should have started (more blame to go around) and people are just all over him. The offense finally came together in that GB game, we were moving the ball up and down the field with ease on them. I think if Manning is healthy than this "Marriage" will work out just fine.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Bradshaw called his own plays, Montana didn't. Manning called his own plays, Elway didn't. Starr called his own plays, Graham didn't.
    Don't forget in the early 90's (was it under Wade?) Elway did call his own plays for a year or two and I believe (could be wrong) that he was the only starting QB in the league doing so...but then the prevailing offensive strategies changed and he began running plays from the sidelines. The problem, IMO with Peyton calling his own plays at the LOS was showcased in the super disaster vs Seattle. When Manning gets frustrated, his playcalling becomes one dimensional and predictable. That's why it's better to have an OC not emotionally immersed in the game to objectively call the best play. When it worked in Peyton's 1st 2.5 seasons with us it was a thing of beauty, but you can only run so many bubble screens and sideline fades before even junior high school coaches can predict what's coming
    "There is no plan B. Plan A is to win the Super Bowl" - John Elway
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis.1960 View Post
    Don't forget in the early 90's (was it under Wade?) Elway did call his own plays for a year or two and I believe (could be wrong) that he was the only starting QB in the league doing so...but then the prevailing offensive strategies changed and he began running plays from the sidelines. The problem, IMO with Peyton calling his own plays at the LOS was showcased in the super disaster vs Seattle. When Manning gets frustrated, his playcalling becomes one dimensional and predictable. That's why it's better to have an OC not emotionally immersed in the game to objectively call the best play. When it worked in Peyton's 1st 2.5 seasons with us it was a thing of beauty, but you can only run so many bubble screens and sideline fades before even junior high school coaches can predict what's coming
    Uh yeah about that, some of the best plays from yesterday were screens ...

  11. #11
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    Mark Schlereth said this is partly why Manning has struggled in the post season... The OL is at a disadvantage, bc they're almost playing from their heals... Squatting in idle for 20 seconds while PM yells OMAHA wears on the big boys... He cited the OL's aggressive nature during the SB run... Call play in huddle, break and line up, hike ball, and fire at the DL... So much easier for the hogs to play that style, as opposed to the Manning way. Toss in the bad wx and fact refs allow more physical play on the WR... All This creates havoc to the timing and precision... And all this is why PM is more successfull in reg season... As opposed to post season play.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by NachoJuice View Post
    Man people are so quick to just throw out the old excuse. Green bay game Manning was damned near perfect running kubes offense and people were on board. He gets hurt the next week during the game and plays through it (blame to go around for keeping him in a game in which he is hurt) then we get killed by KC in a game manning never should have started (more blame to go around) and people are just all over him. The offense finally came together in that GB game, we were moving the ball up and down the field with ease on them. I think if Manning is healthy than this "Marriage" will work out just fine.
    So one good game of in the middle of a group of 20 nullifies the 19 poor games? Manning was healthy leading up to GB, he still led the league in INTs. Heck, even in his GB game he threw more INTs than TDs.

    Brock is the better option right now. Tomorrow. Sunday. Whenever Manning is healthy and whenever going forward.

  13. #13
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    Dreesens argument was always the reason among people paying attention. Age and oline were secondary, but it was always a relationship destined to fail, even if Peyton was 28yrs old. The QB/coach are too set in their ways.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by NachoJuice View Post
    Man people are so quick to just throw out the old excuse. Green bay game Manning was damned near perfect running kubes offense and people were on board. He gets hurt the next week during the game and plays through it (blame to go around for keeping him in a game in which he is hurt) then we get killed by KC in a game manning never should have started (more blame to go around) and people are just all over him. The offense finally came together in that GB game, we were moving the ball up and down the field with ease on them. I think if Manning is healthy than this "Marriage" will work out just fine.

    couldn't agree more with this, well said
    this defense we have now, with PM offense, would probably be unstoppable
    Elway needs to make a decision here, not Kubs call, kubs was only brought in to agree with Elway

    Bears almost came back and won that came, had they had their 2 healthy receivers and we didn't get that lucky first TD, we probably would have been blown out

    IDK, but they need to make a decision, i don't think we got a shot at the pats with OZ as our QB

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by NachoJuice View Post
    Uh yeah about that, some of the best plays from yesterday were screens ...
    But they weren't a staple of the offense, which I think was his point.
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