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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncoslover115 View Post
    I think you missed my point Chrissy. But whatever.
    No I didn't miss it.. Your theory works when an offense doesn't have an identity ..The last 3 years before Kubak arrived the Broncos had an identity and we knew this because they finished ALL 3 YEARS in the top 5..that is an identity. They produced.
    Now when Kubiak was at the Texans and went to the Ravens the O line had no identity. Ray Lewis was it for the Ravens..so when its said oh Kubak did this for Flacko ,he had his best year,,that's great but what is missing with the flip side of that sentence is Peyton finished #2, #3 ..the last 3 years.. Flacko was what#9? Now people oh Flacko had the worst year w/o Kubiak ..ok well Peyton is having his worst year with Kubiak. Why is this..Flacko didn't have an identity to start with. so...
    Peyton NOR THE O LONE should have NEVER been forced to conform to the Kubiak offense , Kubiak should have meshed the 2. People can say oh well Peyton couldn't do this or that the right there in a nutshell SHOWS THAT KUBIAK WAS THE WRONG HIRE.
    Elway wanted to move on, then fine.. the only issue I EVER had with that is then don't say its win now and from now on when an O line as good as they were was thrown out the window for a less then stellar O line. We are seeing just that.
    Last edited by Chrissy; 12-27-2015 at 08:40 PM.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    That's the head scratcher in a nut shell..why did that happen? The offense was successful the last 3 years ..It needed a little substance in the form of running the ball better. Not an overhaul. Especially in an offense that over the last 17 years didn't produce anything. I get slack for this but given this success that has been here for the last 3 years just needed a little tweaking I question the commitment to the saying SB or bust. In order to win it all it takes commitment but commitment doesn't mean changing things that are working..commitment is keeping whats working and add things that help. Its a head scratcher.
    That offense looked like dog poo the 2nd half of the season this last year and Manning looked feeble and pathetic in the playoff game against the Colts. Explain that.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narco View Post
    That offense looked like dog poo the 2nd half of the season this last year and Manning looked feeble and pathetic in the playoff game against the Colts. Explain that.
    Ok for the unteenth time..lol Fox had already taken the job with the Bears,, sorry but considering it was announced 2 days later hires don't happen just like that..and he put it out on twitter before the Colts game . Fox an the coaching staff quit. Now lets take an interview that DT did..he said to quote him some of the guys DID NOT want to go into Foxsboro to play the Pats.. to summarize..THEY QUIT.. just like the defense quit in the Radiers game..no difference

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaOrange View Post
    Elway either lost his nerve or couldn't break a promise. That's the end result of this season. Perhaps he expected the hiring of Kubiak to send PM a message. Asking PM to take a pay cut sent another message. Trading and not signing two big o linemen sent another message. Then letting Tamme and Thomas go sent yet another message. PM called his bluff and came back anyway.

    PM would appear to be a pretty head strong and stubborn guy. I'm sure that's been a part of his magic over the years. Works both ways, like playing injured and literally throwing away a game in KC.

    Had our D not been so good I suspect both Elway and Kubiak couldn't wait to make a change. But PM is an icon and it's easier said than done to gut that fish. So, they had to wait for the team to warm to the idea of making a change. You don't simply replace a guy like PM. Heck, players even stuck up for Orton when he was replaced.

    For PM what other options did he have? What competitive team is going to give PM control, which he needs, at his age? Nobody. PMs only chance to play was with the Broncos even if it meant not getting to be PM anymore.

    Kubiak has had it the worst, he got to kill a legend. That sucks. He just wanted to be a coach and do it his way and yet he spent the offseason and the first half of the season compromising. Now he's being judged based off of half a season wasted doing not what he wants but what PM could do.

    If the fairy tale ending doesn't happen it doesn't end pretty. This is how it ends.
    So the way you put this, I can get behind. Sounds plausible. So let me ask you a question then? Why all the subterfuge then? Why all the message sending? Why wouldn't Elway then just have an honest discussion with Manning and tell him the Broncos wanted to go in a different direction? Why not just tell him they didn't think he would work with where they wanted to go? Why send out these messages and then see if Manning would bite or not?

    I know you say he either lost his nerve or was afraid to break a promise. OK, maybe. I think it would have been better for everyone if they were just honest. Not send out these messages and hope that Manning would receive them. I don't know, this whole thing just really upsets me.

    It upsets me because I feel people blame Manning because Kubiak had to implement a system he didn't want to. Well, that's not his fault. It's the fault of the Broncos for not letting him go. It upsets me because we could have had an entire season with Brock instead of having to throw him into the fire because Manning was so terrible. It upsets me because Manning was playing when he shouldn't have been. It upsets me that Kubiak didn't get to do what he wanted to, but not because of Manning, but because the Broncos made their choice....

    Oh well. I shouldn't let it get to me. But it does. This season has been so freaking weird for everyone. And it all started because either Elway lost his nerve or was bound to a promise...
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  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    That's the head scratcher in a nut shell..why did that happen? The offense was successful the last 3 years ..It needed a little substance in the form of running the ball better. Not an overhaul. Especially in an offense that over the last 17 years didn't produce anything. I get slack for this but given this success that has been here for the last 3 years just needed a little tweaking I question the commitment to the saying SB or bust. In order to win it all it takes commitment but commitment doesn't mean changing things that are working..commitment is keeping whats working and add things that help. Its a head scratcher.

    The Broncos can't commit to Manning if Manning is at the end. I feel like you think Peyton can just play til he's 50 and be the Manning of old. I don't understand what you've seen in him since the Rams game last year that makes you think he's not at the end.

    Again, it happens to all of the greats, it'll happen to Brady, and Rodgers as well. 39,40 isn't old in regular life, but it's ancient in the NFL. There has to be a part of you that sees it? You can't just keep blaming everyone, and everything else, right? Do you really feel Manning is fine, and it's all of the other things that are keeping him down?
    Dread it.Run from it.
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  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncoslover115 View Post
    This is a bunch of garbage. First of all the Broncos made the decision to keep Manning. Therefore it is up to the coaches to design a gameplan and scheme that fits the strengths of its players, not the other way around. You act resentful that the coach had to implement a scheme to make "1 guy happy." He's supposed to. Every coach is supposed to do that, especially for their QB. Doesn't a coach want to put their players in the best position possible to win? Aren't coaches supposed to figure out what their players strengths and weaknesses are and figure out what schemes and plays will work and what won't?

    Did anyone have an issue when McCoy completely abandoned the offense and created a new system for Tebow? That's what he should have done. And it was what Kubiak was supposed to do for our QB and the rest of the team.

    Jeez, I get so freaking sick of this. People act like it was a damn burden for Kubiak to do what he was supposed to do. That's his damn job. They made the decision to keep Manning. Therefore you do what you need to to make it work. They made their choice. So live with it.

    I do think Manning should have been benched sooner. But stop acting like it was "poor Kubiak" who had to make 1 player happy. That was his damn job.
    I'll agree with you to some extent. A coach does have to figure out how utilize the players he has but it has to be within reason. It is quite clear that the running game is far more effective under center. So, not doing so was a pretty unreasonable sacrifice.

    There are very few players that would make a coach make such a fundamental part of his offense be disregarded. PM just happens to be one of them. Kubiak is a pretty specific kind of coach. IMO he was asked to not make some simple compromises, he was asked to disregard his core.

    Elway should have had the guts to complete his transformation. But, at the end of the day it's more than likely a decision that forces one of the greatest of all time to retire. Manning isn't and has never been plug and play. So, it unlikely that a team installs Manning when he's living on borrowed time, especially when the end of last year may have been a realization of borrowed time.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaOrange View Post
    I'll agree with you to some extent. A coach does have to figure out how utilize the players he has but it has to be within reason. It is quite clear that the running game is far more effective under center. So, not doing so was a pretty unreasonable sacrifice.

    There are very few players that would make a coach make such a fundamental part of his offense be disregarded. PM just happens to be one of them. Kubiak is a pretty specific kind of coach. IMO he was asked to not make some simple compromises, he was asked to disregard his core.

    Elway should have had the guts to complete his transformation. But, at the end of the day it's more than likely a decision that forces one of the greatest of all time to retire. Manning isn't and has never been plug and play. So, it unlikely that a team installs Manning when he's living on borrowed time, especially when the end of last year may have been a realization of borrowed time.
    Yeah, I think I'm realizing that especially after I read your other post. It gave me a whole new perspective on this thing. Thanks for taking the time to write that post. It opened my eyes to some things. But after reading it, I have to say I feel really upset. I wish people would have been honest with each other up front. It would have done wonders for everyone. Including us fans.

    I'm feeling really sad.
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  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by B Real 15 View Post
    I think the part that is being missed here are the people that Elway has brought in. You think that using Peyton's name didn't help bring in those guys? Elway has had it pretty easy after signing Peyton and getting free agents to sign in Denver. I guarantee that using Brock as opposed to Peyton will not be as appealing and Elway's job will become much tougher. I will root for Brock and the Broncos every time but Brock isn't our future because if he is we are in for a long next couple years. Our best chance of making any noise this year is with Peyton.
    Excellent points about Free Agency, and the attraction of playing with Peyton Manning. That well is going to dry up if our QB is a young, inexperienced, inconcistent player with very little previous success. In fact, we may see some of our own FAs, that we will be going after, go to other teams with a better chance of success with proven QBs at the helm. And of course that fact is not lost on Elway. I am hoping for another "Blockbuster" signing by John Elway, after the season is over. Unless of course brock osweiler takes this Team deep into the Playoffs and proves he's the guy. And even then, minus a Super Bowl appearance, I suspect Elway has already made his mind up on osweiler's future with the Broncos.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncoslover115 View Post
    So the way you put this, I can get behind. Sounds plausible. So let me ask you a question then? Why all the subterfuge then? Why all the message sending? Why wouldn't Elway then just have an honest discussion with Manning and tell him the Broncos wanted to go in a different direction? Why not just tell him they didn't think he would work with where they wanted to go? Why send out these messages and then see if Manning would bite or not?

    I know you say he either lost his nerve or was afraid to break a promise. OK, maybe. I think it would have been better for everyone if they were just honest. Not send out these messages and hope that Manning would receive them. I don't know, this whole thing just really upsets me.

    It upsets me because I feel people blame Manning because Kubiak had to implement a system he didn't want to. Well, that's not his fault. It's the fault of the Broncos for not letting him go. It upsets me because we could have had an entire season with Brock instead of having to throw him into the fire because Manning was so terrible. It upsets me because Manning was playing when he shouldn't have been. It upsets me that Kubiak didn't get to do what he wanted to, but not because of Manning, but because the Broncos made their choice....

    Oh well. I shouldn't let it get to me. But it does. This season has been so freaking weird for everyone. And it all started because either Elway lost his nerve or was bound to a promise...
    How often does a guy like this come to his end? Has it ever ended well? Favre, Montana? No perfect ending.

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaOrange View Post
    I'll agree with you to some extent. A coach does have to figure out how utilize the players he has but it has to be within reason. It is quite clear that the running game is far more effective under center. So, not doing so was a pretty unreasonable sacrifice.

    There are very few players that would make a coach make such a fundamental part of his offense be disregarded. PM just happens to be one of them. Kubiak is a pretty specific kind of coach. IMO he was asked to not make some simple compromises, he was asked to disregard his core.

    Elway should have had the guts to complete his transformation. But, at the end of the day it's more than likely a decision that forces one of the greatest of all time to retire. Manning isn't and has never been plug and play. So, it unlikely that a team installs Manning when he's living on borrowed time, especially when the end of last year may have been a realization of borrowed time.
    imo it comes down to business .. This is Peyton Manning that we are talking about. People not just Bronco fans but the world Remember Broncos were the new Americas team..SAW the success that he brought to Denver in 3 years., Denver HAD NOT seen anything like in forever.. 17 years is AGES IN THE NFL.. How was he going to explain that he dumped Peyton for Kubiak..people were already aware of Kubiak's record as a coach..it DOES NOT MATCH UP TO PEYTON'S SUCCESS..
    Im going to say something that will upset a few people but imo Peyton being on the bench gets Elway out of it..how? Because its easy to say he couldn't do it. I tried. Sure it doesn't set well with people because we knew from the get go but at the end of the day imo Elway is covered..to a degree.
    However next year when Peyton goes to another team then imo people are going to like ..hmmmmm . I see Indy ALL over again.
    Last edited by Chrissy; 12-27-2015 at 08:56 PM.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncoslover115 View Post
    This is a bunch of garbage. First of all the Broncos made the decision to keep Manning. Therefore it is up to the coaches to design a gameplan and scheme that fits the strengths of its players, not the other way around. You act resentful that the coach had to implement a scheme to make "1 guy happy." He's supposed to. Every coach is supposed to do that, especially for their QB. Doesn't a coach want to put their players in the best position possible to win? Aren't coaches supposed to figure out what their players strengths and weaknesses are and figure out what schemes and plays will work and what won't?
    Most QBs will run more than 1 system in their career, especially if there is a change of coaching staffs. I don't know why Manning got special treatment. I feel like Manning half assed the plays because he didn't like them until Kubiak felt forced to add some of Manning plays to the playbook. No more handing the ball off from under center to make it easier on the RBs and the O-line. It's all about Manning isn't it. Throw the playbook out, the king has spoken. Forget about running. They need more passing. Records need to be broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by broncoslover115 View Post
    Did anyone have an issue when McCoy completely abandoned the offense and created a new system for Tebow? That's what he should have done. And it was what Kubiak was supposed to do for our QB and the rest of the team.
    I had a problem with it. I thought Tebow was held back. He was never going to be the next Manning but the play calling insured he would never get better. I feel like the Broncos ruined him actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by broncoslover115 View Post
    Jeez, I get so freaking sick of this. People act like it was a damn burden for Kubiak to do what he was supposed to do. That's his damn job. They made the decision to keep Manning. Therefore you do what you need to to make it work. They made their choice. So live with it.
    They tried to make it work out of respect for Manning. That failed experiment falls on the HC.

    Quote Originally Posted by broncoslover115 View Post
    I do think Manning should have been benched sooner. But stop acting like it was "poor Kubiak" who had to make 1 player happy. That was his damn job.
    His job isn't to make 1 player happy. It's to put his team in the best position to win a Super Bowl. Manning, it turned out, couldn't run Kubiak's system or a hybrid of his own. Throwing out the playbook on day 1 and replacing it with the 2013 playbook is unrealistic. Elway changed systems and won 2 SBs. They thought Manning could do it too.

    Cutting Manning before the season wasn't an option because he would have been $20 mill in dead money. They were stuck in a tough spot. They had to roll the dice and hope a future HOFer and so called " greatest of all time" would be able to adjust. Secretly I think Elway and Kubiak were hoping Manning would retire.
    Last edited by Narco; 12-27-2015 at 09:01 PM.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaOrange View Post
    How often does a guy like this come to his end? Has it ever ended well? Favre, Montana? No perfect ending.
    Yeah, I hear you. I just wish Elway had been honest with Manning upfront like you said. It would have saved a lot of stuff this season all the way around. I feel incredibly sad all of a sudden. Really sad.
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  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaOrange View Post
    I'll agree with you to some extent. A coach does have to figure out how utilize the players he has but it has to be within reason. It is quite clear that the running game is far more effective under center. So, not doing so was a pretty unreasonable sacrifice.

    There are very few players that would make a coach make such a fundamental part of his offense be disregarded. PM just happens to be one of them. Kubiak is a pretty specific kind of coach. IMO he was asked to not make some simple compromises, he was asked to disregard his core.

    Elway should have had the guts to complete his transformation. But, at the end of the day it's more than likely a decision that forces one of the greatest of all time to retire. Manning isn't and has never been plug and play. So, it unlikely that a team installs Manning when he's living on borrowed time, especially when the end of last year may have been a realization of borrowed time.
    I dont think it had to do with guts. I think Elway very much thought Manning could do it, and I think Manning thought so too and probably Kubes too. They tried even to the point of a hybrid but it wasn't going to happen. John brought in Gary as a long term solution to run his offense. Gary came here knowing he was going to transform the offense to his and run it for the future. PFM just happpened to still be here when it happened and its not like they could wait to hire kubes in a year or 2 this was set in motion when Fox was fired and Fox wasn't working. I don't blame them for thinking it could work, its PFM one of the best of his time and John made plenty of adjustments in his career late, why would he think PFM couldn't. Just very unfortunate for all of them imo. Caught with 1 ft in the past and 1 ft in the future, trying not to piss away today
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  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncoslover115 View Post
    Yeah, I hear you. I just wish Elway had been honest with Manning upfront like you said. It would have saved a lot of stuff this season all the way around. I feel incredibly sad all of a sudden. Really sad.
    Sorry about that, not my intent 😀

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaOrange View Post
    How often does a guy like this come to his end? Has it ever ended well? Favre, Montana? No perfect ending.
    Ummmm John Elway
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