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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by onanygivensunda View Post
    After the 2013 season when similar statements about Seattle's defense were being made, I did a statistical analysis that compared the 2000 Ravens defense to the '85 Bears defense and to the 2013 Seattle defense.

    The method that I followed was to determine how many points each defense gave up against each of their regular season opponents relative to the average points scored by each of their opponents' offenses.

    For example, in 2013 Seattle beat Carolina to open the season 12-7. At the end of that season, Carolina srored on average 22.9 pts./game. So in this case, Seattle held Carolina to 15.9 points below their 2013 scoring average (22.9 - 7 = 15.9)... and Seattle tallied a minus 15.9 for that game. Had Seattle given up more than 22.9 points to Carolina, the difference for that game would have been a positive number.

    So after doing that for each game for all three teams, I arrived at a total differential for each team. Again, I calculated the difference between how many points each defense gave up compared to each opponent's offense scored on average.

    But I didn't stop there because as we all know, the rules of the game have changed over time and I needed to adjust for that. So my method was to add all the points scored by every team in 1985, in 2000 and in 2013 to determine the adjustments I needed to make to the raw scores. We all know that scoring has gradually increased over time and that needed to be accounted for in my analysis.

    And one further adjustment was necessary because in 1985 there only 28 teams in the league and 32 teams in both 2000 and 2013 so I adjusted the total points scored for that difference. Less teams, less scoring.

    The bottom line... the 1985 Bears were the clear winners... and the 2013 Seattle defense beat out the 2000 Ravens defense for 2nd place among these three teams that played in different eras.

    Something siimilar should/could be done for the 2015 Broncos.
    That sounds like a detailed analysis for sure. Just one minor correction, there were only 31 teams in the NFL in 2000, Houston was the 32nd team and they started in 2002. Not sure if that makes a difference at all.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Sorry I just saw that you said Gil Brandt ranks the 00 Ravens as his second best of all-time, again they weren't even the best defense that year, Tennessee had better numbers than them in almost every metric. They played in the playoffs and the Titans held the Ravens to just 134 total offensive yards (The Titans put up 317 yards). But Baltimore scored on a blocked FG returned for a touchdown and an interception return for a TD. If Tennessee had won that game, and won the Super Bowl, would we be considering them one of the best of all-time?

    Comparing the two over that season:
    Avg Yards per game: Ten 238.3, Bal 247.9
    Pass D: Ten 151.4, Bal 187.3 (Baltimore was 8th)
    Sacks: Ten 55, Bal 33
    Int: Ten 17, Bal 23
    Opposing QB rate: Ten 62.0, Bal 62.5
    Rush D: Ten 86.9, Bal 60.6 (Ten was 3rd, Bal was 1st by 12 yards per game)
    3rd down %: Ten 31%, Bal 34%
    Points per game: Ten 11.9, Bal 10.3

    When you look at the numbers, both teams were dominant on D, but the Ravens really weren't that much better than the Titans. They did get turnovers at a higher rate though. But really the only reason Baltimore is looked at as the historic D is because they won the SB that year, if the Titans win the SB, they have just as much of a case to being one of the greatest as the Ravens do. Or if neither wins, the Titans could be considered just as historic, if not more so.

    Bringing this around back to being about the Broncos (although I did hijack it somewhat) is that the biggest argument against them being a historic D (in my opinion) is the average points per game they gave up, 18.5 which was 4th in the league. If you take away the pick 6's that Manning threw, I think they're still at about 17 points per game against.

    They were still very dominant on D, and I think they're easily top 2 or 3, but the points per game is where I'm bothered by it all.
    It is not just pick sixes but turnovers deep in your own territory. Those are gimmie points even if they turn out to be FGs.

    Take a lot of those out and soon you are closer. IIRC the ravens and bears were very disciplined. And commited very few penalties.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garfield View Post
    It is not just pick sixes but turnovers deep in your own territory. Those are gimmie points even if they turn out to be FGs.

    Take a lot of those out and soon you are closer. IIRC the ravens and bears were very disciplined. And commited very few penalties.
    You could maul qbs and wrs in 1985 and not get a penalty. In the 70s things were allowed on the football field which would land u in jail if done in the stands.

    It was not as bad in 2000 but you can bet money that if the 2000 Ravens and the 1985 Bears played with the same refs who watched the 2015 Broncos play there would be a great amount more of penalties called on those teams then were called in 85 or 00.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadez View Post
    You could maul qbs and wrs in 1985 and not get a penalty. In the 70s things were allowed on the football field which would land u in jail if done in the stands.

    It was not as bad in 2000 but you can bet money that if the 2000 Ravens and the 1985 Bears played with the same refs who watched the 2015 Broncos play there would be a great amount more of penalties called on those teams then were called in 85 or 00.
    Hey i agree 10000%.

    That said my thoughts were mostly concerning our team our stupid penalties and give aways.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by onanygivensunda View Post
    After the 2013 season when similar statements about Seattle's defense were being made, I did a statistical analysis that compared the 2000 Ravens defense to the '85 Bears defense and to the 2013 Seattle defense.

    The method that I followed was to determine how many points each defense gave up against each of their regular season opponents relative to the average points scored by each of their opponents' offenses.

    For example, in 2013 Seattle beat Carolina to open the season 12-7. At the end of that season, Carolina srored on average 22.9 pts./game. So in this case, Seattle held Carolina to 15.9 points below their 2013 scoring average (22.9 - 7 = 15.9)... and Seattle tallied a minus 15.9 for that game. Had Seattle given up more than 22.9 points to Carolina, the difference for that game would have been a positive number.

    So after doing that for each game for all three teams, I arrived at a total differential for each team. Again, I calculated the difference between how many points each defense gave up compared to each opponent's offense scored on average.

    But I didn't stop there because as we all know, the rules of the game have changed over time and I needed to adjust for that. So my method was to add all the points scored by every team in 1985, in 2000 and in 2013 to determine the adjustments I needed to make to the raw scores. We all know that scoring has gradually increased over time and that needed to be accounted for in my analysis.

    And one further adjustment was necessary because in 1985 there only 28 teams in the league and 32 teams in both 2000 and 2013 so I adjusted the total points scored for that difference. Less teams, less scoring.

    The bottom line... the 1985 Bears were the clear winners... and the 2013 Seattle defense beat out the 2000 Ravens defense for 2nd place among these three teams that played in different eras.

    Something siimilar should/could be done for the 2015 Broncos.
    Interesting analysis. If you kept the baseline stats - by chance would you run the numbers for the 2015 Broncos?

  6. #36
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    This is the same argument that is attempted to be made or created when even comparing players from totally different eras in different sports. It is very, very difficult to be left with much more than a "best estimate" as to which is really "better".

    I am of the opinion that if the 2015 Broncos defense faced the offenses that the 1985 Bears or 2000 Ravens faced, the would be superior just in terms of the better athletes that we see playing the sport now than 15 and 30 years ago. Speed, strength, stamina, conditioning, advancements in the mental side of prep for opponents, etc.

    Like I don't think the '00 Ravens, and especially the '85 bears, could have dealt at all with the range offense in the NFL now. In fact, the Bears only loss in '85 was to the Dan Marino led Dolphins on MNF. To combat the 46 defense, Marino's offense just went 11 personnel, 3 WRs. Buddy Ryan's defense was rendered useless against an offense like this. in the NFL NOW, 11 personnel is the most commonly used offensive set league wide, followed 12 (1 RB, 2 TE) and 10 (1 RB, 0 TE). I have a hard time believing the '00 Ravens OR '85 Bears would match up favourably the the kind of offensive sets the Broncos of 2015 regularly had to deal with, and ultimately had success against.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by onanygivensunda View Post
    After the 2013 season when similar statements about Seattle's defense were being made, I did a statistical analysis that compared the 2000 Ravens defense to the '85 Bears defense and to the 2013 Seattle defense.

    The method that I followed was to determine how many points each defense gave up against each of their regular season opponents relative to the average points scored by each of their opponents' offenses.

    For example, in 2013 Seattle beat Carolina to open the season 12-7. At the end of that season, Carolina srored on average 22.9 pts./game. So in this case, Seattle held Carolina to 15.9 points below their 2013 scoring average (22.9 - 7 = 15.9)... and Seattle tallied a minus 15.9 for that game. Had Seattle given up more than 22.9 points to Carolina, the difference for that game would have been a positive number.

    So after doing that for each game for all three teams, I arrived at a total differential for each team. Again, I calculated the difference between how many points each defense gave up compared to each opponent's offense scored on average.

    But I didn't stop there because as we all know, the rules of the game have changed over time and I needed to adjust for that. So my method was to add all the points scored by every team in 1985, in 2000 and in 2013 to determine the adjustments I needed to make to the raw scores. We all know that scoring has gradually increased over time and that needed to be accounted for in my analysis.

    And one further adjustment was necessary because in 1985 there only 28 teams in the league and 32 teams in both 2000 and 2013 so I adjusted the total points scored for that difference. Less teams, less scoring.

    The bottom line... the 1985 Bears were the clear winners... and the 2013 Seattle defense beat out the 2000 Ravens defense for 2nd place among these three teams that played in different eras.

    Something siimilar should/could be done for the 2015 Broncos.
    That's a good points allowed analysis...but there was a key difference between the `13 Seahawks and the `15 Broncos. You had an offense that could actually move the ball and had fewer turnovers, which benefits a defense.

    Our offense was more like this ~


  8. #38
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    If any NFL D in the league now lined up in a 46 Bear front, there isn't a starter of back-up on any NFL roster who couldn't make the necessary adjustments to beat that defense, 9 times out of 10. The 2000 Ravens stand a better chance against a current offense, but again, they weren't even far and away the best defense that season, which I was not aware of until reading this thread. But the point remains: the argument is absolutely there to say the 2015 Broncos were (are still?) the all time greatest defense in NFL history.

  9. #39
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    Interesting thread. One thing I'm curious about is how the Broncos D compares situationally. Not just how they performed against the average offense of their opponent, but factoring in the number of 3 and outs faced, field position of drives, pick-6's/non-offensive scores by opponent. What was really impressive about last year's D was not just that they held high flying offenses down, but that they did so with no or negative support from the offense. What was it in the SB, 12 3-and-outs in a row? How many times did they have to fend off Pats drives after giving the offense the ball back in position to win the game by picking up just 1 first down? How many defenses survive the what the offense gave them in the Browns game?

    I know the '85 Bears benefitted from a ball control offense. Seattle could run and pass. Balt had an anemic offense, but even theirs was more effective than what we witnessed last year. You simply don't win games in the NFL today with long streaks of 3-and-outs or under 200 yard of offense or being completely incapable of running a 4 minute offense. It doesn't happen. Yet it did last year in all 3 playoff games and multiple games during the regular season.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumiere View Post
    That's a good points allowed analysis...but there was a key difference between the `13 Seahawks and the `15 Broncos. You had an offense that could actually move the ball and had fewer turnovers, which benefits a defense.

    Our offense was more like this ~

    Love the Wild Wacky Action Bike!

  11. #41
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    Late to this discussion, but one of the things that comes to mind is the '85 Bears won a SB shutting down a pats team that was hardly an offensive force to be reckoned with by any means. Looking at the stats, Grogan/Eason combined for an 18TD/22INT season with both having QB ratings below 85. Their only skill position pro bowlers on offense were FB Craig James and WR Irving Fryar - and if I remember correctly Fryar cut his hand open carving a turkey on Christmas or New Years so played the SB injured and only caught 2 passes (1 for the pats only TD).

    Anyway...my point is the Bears were a great D but dominated a weak pats team in their SB win (and the Bears probably would have still won even if their D had an awful game). Our D on the other hand, came in and shut down the unstoppable juggernaut panthers that all the experts claimed was going to steamroll us into an embarrassing loss that would have topped the 1989 super disaster.

    I give the vote to our 2015 D over the Bears 1985 D
    "There is no plan B. Plan A is to win the Super Bowl" - John Elway
    PLAN A ACCOMPLISHED 2/7/16!!!

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis.1960 View Post
    Late to this discussion, but one of the things that comes to mind is the '85 Bears won a SB shutting down a pats team that was hardly an offensive force to be reckoned with by any means. Looking at the stats, Grogan/Eason combined for an 18TD/22INT season with both having QB ratings below 85. Their only skill position pro bowlers on offense were FB Craig James and WR Irving Fryar - and if I remember correctly Fryar cut his hand open carving a turkey on Christmas or New Years so played the SB injured and only caught 2 passes (1 for the pats only TD).

    Anyway...my point is the Bears were a great D but dominated a weak pats team in their SB win (and the Bears probably would have still won even if their D had an awful game). Our D on the other hand, came in and shut down the unstoppable juggernaut panthers that all the experts claimed was going to steamroll us into an embarrassing loss that would have topped the 1989 super disaster.

    I give the vote to our 2015 D over the Bears 1985 D
    Talk about 'Back to the Future' - Manning/Osweiler combined for 19 TD/23 INT. Once again amazing how the Broncos D overcame the lack of offense during the season, playoffs and SB50.

    Great memory on the turkey carving injury

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by osfantaztic View Post
    Love the Wild Wacky Action Bike!
    I couldn't resist - its such a stupidly ridiculous analogy for our offense last year.

  14. #44
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    All these stats are meaningless, I think the real determining factor on who had the greatest defense of all time is looked at elsewhere. Get away from the football field. While my heart is all about Denver being the greatest ever. Which team had a reoccurring skit on SNL?
    Only one answer "Da Bears".



  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 86rocco View Post
    All these stats are meaningless, I think the real determining factor on who had the greatest defense of all time is looked at elsewhere. Get away from the football field. While my heart is all about Denver being the greatest ever. Which team had a reoccurring skit on SNL?
    Only one answer "Da Bears".


    Just checking. Was this sarcasm? Lol not because of your final answer though. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

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