View Poll Results: Kayvon or Sly.Who to keep???

Voters
4. You may not vote on this poll
  • Kayvon Webster

    4 100.00%
  • Sylvester Williams.

    0 0%
Page 35 of 42 FirstFirst ... 25 33 34 35 36 37 ... LastLast
Results 511 to 525 of 626
  1. #511
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    10,615
    Quote Originally Posted by cmc0605 View Post
    The crowds in support of and opposed to Trevor Siemian seem to keep talking past each other. As a Siemian supporter, it's maybe worth clarifying the actual arguments for Siemian.

    I don't think anyone is arguing that Siemian had a "good year" relative to the expectations of a veteran, franchise QB. The stats and W-L is irrelevant. The argument is that he has displayed all of the mental and physical attributes of a franchise QB and did enough to earn the right to develop more. If that's not in Denver, it will unequivocally occur elsewhere.

    There's a lot of superstitious mumbo jumbo being parroted about the "fire" and "it factor" and all that good stuff that Siemian apparently lacks...i'Il submit that virtually no QB in league history would have done substantially better in their first year. You can romanticize the problem all you want with how great QBs would have carried a team designed to run first (but couldn't) on his own shoulders despite all the problems, but at least for QBs of Trevor's age/experience, that nice story has almost never occurred in history. If you find a couple of counter-examples in the many decades, good for you, but you're missing the point.

    You can go on about how great QBs would have made a lot happen despite all the bad things around them, and that "truly great ones don't need and need and need." Except they mostly do. Elway needed help with the run game and defense. Aaron Rodgers has been decidedly unimpressive in the last couple years without a good receiving core. Remember how he fared against us last year? Brady has never been in a system where he just took 7 steps back and had WRs running 10+ yards down the field, rarely open, and made magic happen. He also struggled in a year of rookie WRs around him, which is a good analog for our year of an atrocious o-line and bad coaching/scheme.

    But I digress. The real point here is that Siemian has shown poise, accuracy, release, and the intelligence required of an NFL QB. Paxton hasn't yet. In fact, aside from raw arm strength, he hasn't shown anything close to Siemian in any related category. For where Siemian is, he never had the "deer in headlights" part of the career that mot young QBs take a half season to get over.

    It's not just a convenient soundbyte that QBs in year 1 and year 4 are different. It's a huge difference and reality. Furthermore, with experience doesn't just come better play, but also more tasks asked of the QB...from which all the leadership and "carrying on the shoulders" stuff follows. It's not a magical trait of first year players. No one just steps onto the field and acts like Ray Lewis. You might think your "it/fire radar" is 100% foolproof, but more than likely you just don't understand football very much.
    The issue is, Kubiak is fiercely loyal. To a fault. He probably stuck with Matt Schaub longer than he should have. He stuck with his assistant coaches in Houston longer than he should have, which ultimately got him fired.

    With that, my feeling is Kubiak likes Siemian because he's smart, works hard, and does everything Kubiak and Dennison ask him to do. In that regard, I can see why it's a nice change for Kubiak over say, Peyton Manning or to a lesser extent Brock Osweiler, and why he's sticking with Siemian through everything.

    Having said that, I've followed the Broncos since 1990. After Elway I've seen quarterbacks like Griese, Plummer, Cutler, Orton, and Tebow come and go. I don't see a franchise quarterback when I evaluate Siemian. Every snap he runs the play called 99% of the time, no audible, no moving people around. On too many 3rd and 6+, I've seen him dump the ball off 3-5 yards in front of the sticks because he's either too scared or too coached not to take any chances with the football. When he does throw deep, there's a lot of inaccuracy. He doesn't move around very well, and his pocket awareness in terms of feeling the pressure is not existent. Not to mention he holds on to the ball too long and he's shown to be injury prone, even going back to his college days. Oh, and we went on a 3-game skid that kicked us out of the playoffs, and the offense scored 10, 3, and 10 points in that stretch. Had it not been for a 23-yard and 6-yard drives, we wouldn't have scored a touchdown at all. In 3 games. This is by far the worst offense I've seen the Broncos put out in any year I've been watching them.

    Now, that's not to say Lynch is the answer either, because I've been less than thrilled with his performance in the two games he played this year. But the reality is, the investment in Lynch is higher and the skill set he has better.
    Last edited by mojo0730; 12-28-2016 at 11:22 AM.

  2. #512
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    14,723
    Quote Originally Posted by FlowdaBroncoFan View Post
    Why would you say short leash?

    Because Fox was fired in a season where he went 12-4 and lost in the first playoff game the year after going to the Super Bowl. In theory Kubiak would be fired after going 8-8 (or 9-7) the year after winning the Super Bowl.

    That's a very short leash, it says to prospective coaches that you'd better be in or win the Super Bowl every year or you're going to get fired.

    Not to mention that it creates a dysfunctional team that only the Browns could dream of.

  3. #513
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    14,723
    Quote Originally Posted by haciendadad View Post
    I see your point, but the Bronco's record this year was based on our defense, once we lose this incredible defense this team will struggle to be an 8-8 team. So I am suggesting to get ahead of this before the defense dissipates. An offensive coach is all we need since we have Wade to cover everything defense. Fox and Kubiak are both pretty passive, a players coach, and I think everybody knew Kubiak was chosen because he and Elway were friends not because he was some offensive genius. If your an OC out there and you think you can fix this offense, and that is all that we really need, ST is doing ok, then this is a great opportunity to build your resume because with this defense you'll get 8 wins, especially with an easier schedule.
    The defense wasn't amazing this year. In fact the 2016 defense is very much overrated on these boards by a lot of people who are thinking of 2015 and trying to blend them together. But as a one year standalone they were middle of the road to slightly above middle of the road.

    But that aside, it doesn't matter why the 8-8 record was compiled, you're telling coaches that if they don't win the Super Bowl every year they'll be fired. Have you ever noticed that organizations that remain at the top of the league every year change coaches very little? And that teams that roll through coaches quickly are often the worst franchises? Patience is a great thing and Denver fans need to exercise this now.

  4. #514
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    7,406
    Without the defense playing as well as it did forcing turnovers scoring points we could very easily be 3-12 right now. Run defense was trash this year but all in all they held it down considering it was rare we had a lead that forced the other team to pass the ball later in the games.

  5. #515
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    33,365

    Broncos Finish At Least 500.....Not Too Far From Getting Back Big Time!

    I know that plenty of us are still a bit down over missing the playoffs. It's about passion and disappointment all coming together, and after a SB winning season. But we are going to finish at least 8 and 8, perhaps 9 and 7, and that is not indicative of a team in trouble. We may all agree on some of the reasons, and some of us may agree on all the areas that need a tweak or two, but at the end of the day, we are not near the bottom, and we have some real positive parts.

    I will admit, losing 4 of 5, and the last 3, weighs a little heavier. It's more recent and it's not a good trend. But think of it, we were 8 and 4, and playing with what we all seem to share to be true - a relatively weak Oline, and basically rookie QBs. And no matter how good your D, if your O trenchers are under par, and you have inexperience at the helm.....well now, what do you expect?

    For me, based on the above, we are not that far away....in fact, we were doing pretty well in the power rankings up until recently. And this thread is not about what needs to be fixed (because we have plenty of those threads) so much as emphasizing how close we really are to a bounce back season. In fact, given the roster going into the regular season, even on my most positive days, I challenged myself as to the reality of another really good season. Heck, I hardly even knew Trevor, and Paxton was barely a 1st round talent. And lets not get all "Dak is doing it", because I think I could look ok with that Oline, and with a kid behind me who will gladly handle the pigskin pretty much every down!!

    So folks....I don't blame you for being down, or being disappointed, or critiquing the establishment, or even complaining about the popcorn. We are passionate fans and we follow one of the finest teams in football. We have our fan rights.....and just like any fan, we want to win!

    But similarly, as much as we have these rights, I think all in all we are not that far behind where we expected to be, once we chose to go the QB route we did. Again, my only real source of concern was not making more improvement to the Oline. And lets be real, we lost some good players to better offers, and that's the nature of players on winning teams, who have an option in free agency.

    So look elsewhere for all the solutions/tweaks/upgrades. The mods have enough to do, rather than have to chase down a bunch of similar threads. And yes, this one does hinge a bit on similar themes......sorry for that. But overall, my message is this, 2017 looks very promising, because I know Elway and company will be looking to make us better. They probably know that they needed to do more this past offseason, and have likely had many a "discussion" about it. Perhaps some fur has flown. But though I can not guarantee anything, I feel strongly that our middle of the pack outcome will be our bottom for a long, long time, and we will make enough adjustments, and our young players will improve based on the experience.....which will all work in our favour.

    Here's to a better year, and a long, good run!!!

  6. #516
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    10,804
    The way the Broncos played over the last three games is troubling. Missing the playoffs is one thing - going off the rails is another. The most concerning issue from my perspective isn't the offensive line, which QB is under center or needing better talent on the defensive line - it's the way opponents pushed the team around.

    I'm concerned with Kubiak asking a player to address the team following the embarrassing defeat vs. Patriots* at home - you don't delegate leadership. Kubiak and players can dismiss the fallout after that game - there is a problem. It starts with Kubiak.

    Elway can work on the talent through FA and the draft. The question is whether or not Kubiak can put the team back on track. I disagree that there isn't anything to lose in the game vs. Oakland. Kubiak's ability to get this team to play competitive football means a lot. Playing hard and beating Oakland can end the season on a positive.

    I'm not convinced this team has hit bottom. They'll have to prove themselves through playing competitive and winning again. Regardless of talent there were enough good players on the team to play better than they did in Tennessee, vs. Patriots* and in Kansas City.

    Elway has work to do.

  7. #517
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    33,365
    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    The way the Broncos played over the last three games is troubling. Missing the playoffs is one thing - going off the rails is another. The most concerning issue from my perspective isn't the offensive line, which QB is under center or needing better talent on the defensive line - it's the way opponents pushed the team around.

    I'm concerned with Kubiak asking a player to address the team following the embarrassing defeat vs. Patriots* at home - you don't delegate leadership. Kubiak and players can dismiss the fallout after that game - there is a problem. It starts with Kubiak.

    Elway can work on the talent through FA and the draft. The question is whether or not Kubiak can put the team back on track. I disagree that there isn't anything to lose in the game vs. Oakland. Kubiak's ability to get this team to play competitive football means a lot. Playing hard and beating Oakland can end the season on a positive.

    I'm not convinced this team has hit bottom. They'll have to prove themselves through playing competitive and winning again. Regardless of talent there were enough good players on the team to play better than they did in Tennessee, vs. Patriots* and in Kansas City.

    Elway has work to do.
    I see your side, but I have confidence in what will occur this offseason. Further, a poor start into 2017 and I do not doubt Elway will pull some plugs.

  8. #518
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    10,804
    Quote Originally Posted by CanDB View Post
    I see your side, but I have confidence in what will occur this offseason. Further, a poor start into 2017 and I do not doubt Elway will pull some plugs.
    I remain optimistic about 2017 - just not going to underestimate what's required to get the Broncos back to the top of the AFC West. Kansas City and Oakland have built strong teams. San Diego has it's challenges but they will be able to put up points with Rivers.

    Elway will have some room with he cap for FA and we'll be higher in the draft.

  9. #519
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    14,723
    Quote Originally Posted by shawinkerpoppin View Post
    Without the defense playing as well as it did forcing turnovers scoring points we could very easily be 3-12 right now. Run defense was trash this year but all in all they held it down considering it was rare we had a lead that forced the other team to pass the ball later in the games.
    Denver could be in a playoff position if the defense had done their job in the first game against the Chefs. The offense gave them an 8 point lead and then a 3 point lead and special teams gave the Chefs a long field to work with both times, and the defense didn't do their jobs either time.

    The entire team won the Super Bowl last year, the entire team shares the blame of missing the playoffs this year. If the defense thinks it doesn't deserve any then the defense is going to be much worse next year. All 3 units need to get better.

  10. #520
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    100
    I really don't think we are that far off too. That said, my biggest concern going into this season was leadership. Who would fill the major void left by Manning. I kind of expected an 8-8 season, but started to get my hopes up after a good start. That said, we could tell early on where the problems would be.

    On defense we could tell that stopping the run would be an issue. On offense running the ball looked like it could be better, but ultimately regressed during the season. We lost key players to FA, retirement or injury that were a lot to overcome.

    I think adding a stout DL could go a long way in helping this defense. We probably still need help at LB, but a run stopping DL will help.

    On offense, I think there needs to be more changes. Paradis and Schofield are the only two OL that didn't disappoint us. Scho was a surprise. That said, when the majority if your OL is under performing you have a coaching problem. I think the offense needs a near overhaul on coaching. We need a creative mind for the OC and experience for the OL and RB. I also think we need to upgrade the RB and ST...yes, I am hoping C-Mac can land here.

  11. #521
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    7,406
    I'm not even disappointed. There are fans that go 20-30 years without seeing their favorite team win a superbowl or even get close and there are fans who have seen their teams put together the best possible team and miss their window of opportunity like the eagles and titans. I thought that was gonna be us 4 amazing years for nothing but we got it right as the window closed.

  12. #522
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,350
    Those 7 of those wins were purely from the defense.
    BCMB Div 1 - Rollin' with Mahomies

  13. #523
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    I 70 Westbound
    Posts
    7,840
    OKAY..
    without reading the thread...
    I"LL PLAY ALONG
    -------------------------------------------------

    If Kubiak is fired.........

    Does he take Jordan Norwood with him?
    - Go Broncos 2017 and Beyond! -

    Super Bowl 50 CHAMPIONS!

  14. #524
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    19,465
    Quote Originally Posted by PAINTERDAVE View Post
    OKAY..
    without reading the thread...
    I"LL PLAY ALONG
    -------------------------------------------------

    If Kubiak is fired.........

    Does he take Jordan Norwood with him?
    Good one!

  15. #525
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    7,406
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Denver could be in a playoff position if the defense had done their job in the first game against the Chefs. The offense gave them an 8 point lead and then a 3 point lead and special teams gave the Chefs a long field to work with both times, and the defense didn't do their jobs either time.

    The entire team won the Super Bowl last year, the entire team shares the blame of missing the playoffs this year. If the defense thinks it doesn't deserve any then the defense is going to be much worse next year. All 3 units need to get better.
    The offense only put up 3 points in the first half of the game when the defense held them to under 50 yards total offense. The offense kept the defense on the field most of the game and didn't show up until the 4th. You cant blame the defense for falling apart late when the offense doesn't show up most of the game. Couldn't put up any TDs in a 3 game elimination stretch except for a 30 yard and a 6 yard drive. Without the defense we would be competing for a top 5 pick in the draft.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •