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  1. #46
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    According to Vance Joseph, the QB competition will be "Open". And I take him at his word.

    Siemian has decent athletic ability, a good arm, and most of all, the "smarts". Lynch is a better athlete, with a slightly better arm, but who doesn't appear to be a ................. "rocket scientist". I'm betting on Siemian. But, if the competition is anywhere near being close, the Broncos will likely "give" it to Lynch.

    I hope to hell that Musgrave and McCoy know what they are doing. If they do, then Lynch has an opportunity. If Lynch doesn't have the wherewithal, then it will be a blown 1st Round Pick. Either way, and when you consider how many 1st Round QBs fail, I think Elway was right in making the Pick. Should be fun to watch.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenverBlood View Post
    So you're only going to bash Elway for his first and second round qb picks but not give him credit for the one he took in the 7th round?
    Siemian was Kubiaks pick.
    There is a whole feel good story about how Kubiak was
    the only coach who wanted him..
    otherwise Trevor would have been undrafted
    and been lucky to get on a team as an UFA.
    -
    In week 4, undefeated...
    Kubiak looked like a genius for picking Trevor...
    then the wheels fell off the bus.
    -
    Speaking of picks made by others than Elway...
    I am pretty happy that Bill Kolar is still here..
    and will still develop HIS 2nd round pick Gotsis
    -
    Kolar reportedly got up on a table and demanded Elway draft Gotsis. at # 2.
    - Go Broncos 2017 and Beyond! -

    Super Bowl 50 CHAMPIONS!

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAINTERDAVE View Post
    Siemian was Kubiaks pick.
    There is a whole feel good story about how Kubiak was
    the only coach who wanted him..
    otherwise Trevor would have been undrafted
    and been lucky to get on a team as an UFA.
    -
    In week 4, undefeated...
    Kubiak looked like a genius for picking Trevor...
    then the wheels fell off the bus.
    -
    Speaking of picks made by others than Elway...
    I am pretty happy that Bill Kolar is still here..
    and will still develop HIS 2nd round pick Gotsis
    -
    Kolar reportedly got up on a table and demanded Elway draft Gotsis. at # 2.
    I'm not really positive if you are refusing to give Elway any credit in this or not.

    Are you implying that every successful GM in the NFL operates as individuals and doesn't have an entire scout team to help advise them?

    Verdict is still out on Siemian but the kid won 9 games in his first year starting so I'm not about to call it a failure.

    Also doesn't matter if other coaches stood up and begged for players. That's Elway job is to listen to his coaches and scouts and choose which advise is best for the team. Some work out some don't.

    But I have no reason to believe he is making such wrong choices that we are headed to jags and browns territory.

    It was 9-7 with a first year starter at QB. Hardly the worst thing in the world.

    But again I can't tell from your post if you are cutting him slack or blaming him. So I apologize if I'm making arguments for no reason.


    Also there are two parts to the GM business. We may be making some wrong choices at some spots in the draft offensively but he has hit home runs with Manning and Sanders in free agency. Just wish he could figure out the oline.

    And defensively I think he has both drafted well and signed good free agents.

  4. #49
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    As for the Vance Joseph saying the competition will be open and they will work with Lynch I kind of feel like the Musgrave and McCoy hirings were more for lynch than Siemian.

    I think Elway wanted the two best guys (in his mind) to come in and work with Lynch to speed up his development.

    McCoy to help fix the oline and ground game and improve playcalling.

    Musgrave specifically to develop Lynch.

    At least that's what I hope.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtown53 View Post
    According to Vance Joseph, the QB competition will be "Open". And I take him at his word.
    Joseph saying that it will be open was nothing more than a PR response to a question he knew he would eventually get. What the heck did you suppose Joseph say when he was asked about the QB situation? "No comment"...? Or "We have an idea of the direction we want to go"...?

    The QB competition will not be "open".

    Lynch will have to be so horrendously and pathetically bad in practice and preseason for Siemian to be the starter. And if that happens and Siemian starts, we might as well just start looking at QB possibilities in the 2018 draft.
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  6. #51
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    The transition from college to pro for QBs involves mental and physical challenges.

    Mental challenges include recognizing defenses and learning an NFL playbook. Defenses, especially coverage, takes a quantum leap from college to pro. QBs see everything from Cover 0 to Cover 9, every possible Combo, invert and rotation including Zone Blitz. Sometimes they see most of that in one game.

    NFL offensive playbooks include more formations, plays, routes, motions and shifts than college, line eligible players up in different spots and invent a language that communicates all of that into one play call. WCO systems are notorious for extremely long play calls.

    That's what Paxton Lynch encountered his rookie season and he didn't have Peyton Manning as a role model the way Trevor did. The college offense Paxton ran at Memphis was simple even by college standards. It was a lot for him to absorb and I can see why some are saying he is lazy or stupid. We'll see how he looks in a new offense which may not be as complex as the one he learned in 2016.

    Physical challenges are passing and playing under center. The degree of accuracy required in the NFL is much greater than in college. The window is much smaller. Arm strength and throwing mechanics, especially footwork, are essential for success. Knowledge of the playbook and chemistry with receivers is vital because the ball is usually released before the receiver is open and ready to catch. It's a huge leap for any college QB.

    Most FBS and many FCS schools use a Spread/Gun formation offense which often includes Double and Triple Option based on reading an unblocked defender. NFL teams use both Spread/Gun and under center formations. College QBs must learn how to take the snap from under center, get to the meshpoint, make or fake the handoff, and take the steps to the spot from which they will set up to throw. They must learn straight dropback from under center. All of that is not as easy as it looks and is a big deal for a QB who has operated from Gun.

    Paxton had a chance to learn all this stuff his rookie season, and I'm sure he learned something. McCoy and Musgrave will be assessing and building on that this year. Trevor and Paxton having game experience in 2016 is significant and a good sign for the QB position in 2017.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  7. #52
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    Curious if anyone knows or can speculate on off season coaching and training for the QBs.

    How limited are McCoy and Musgrave in contact with either QB? Can a Bronco QB coach work with them? Or only unaffiliated coaches between the CBA allotted time with the team? Or can Bronco coaches have contact with a private coaches to establish desired results ?

    Any insight on the grey areas of what is legal or not is appreciated.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenverBlood View Post
    So you're only going to bash Elway for his first and second round qb picks but not give him credit for the one he took in the 7th round?
    Um....yea? A 7th round pick isn't a risk because the value is so low that you know the pick probably won't be in the NFL long anyway. So if you get lucky that's awesome!

    A 1st and 2nd round pick should have nothing to do with luck. You better know who they are, and how hard they'll work and fit into your team before you draft them.

    Too often we're drafting people with the tools but with seemingly no capacity to put those tools to use. That's an issue and Elway deserves the flak he gets for it. He has not been a successful judge of offensive talent.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by 15thebeast View Post
    Instead of debating his height I think we should be bothered about the style of offence we are going to run this season personally I'd like us to go back to a more spread offence which is what Lynch is more used to and would play to his strengths. I think we might of thrown abit too much at him in his first year he had to learn a new offence with new terminology compared to what he knew, improve his footwork, work on his throwing motion, Learn to take snaps from under centre all while competing to try and be the starter that's quite a lot for a rookie lets atleast go back to something he knows so has less to think about.
    So we have to dumb down the offense and convert it into a college style spread because Paxton cannot learn a pro offense? That's ridiculous.

    The QB that learns McCoy's system the best and can execute it the best next year should be the starting QB.

    Defenses in the NFL figured out how to disrupt the spread offense and force the mobile QB back into the pocket a decade ago. That will not work at this level any more unless you have someone as physical as Cam to possibly pull it off as well as a much better line and running game.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brakshow;5542107[B
    ]So we have to dumb down the offense and convert it into a college style spread because Paxton cannot learn a pro offense? That's ridiculous.[/B]

    The QB that learns McCoy's system the best and can execute it the best next year should be the starting QB.

    Defenses in the NFL figured out how to disrupt the spread offense and force the mobile QB back into the pocket a decade ago. That will not work at this level any more unless you have someone as physical as Cam to possibly pull it off as well as a much better line and running game.
    I agree with your overall reasoning yet disagree with your statement. In reality, is it as extreme as you state? "Convert it to a college system", really?

    IMO it is a question of rigid conformity to a system compared to a OC adapting the best system to the strengths and weaknesses of his players. Of giving them the best chance to succeed. Was Lynch truly too dumb or just in a system not suited to his skillset. Even Manning had to have the system adjusted to a "hybrid" to best fit him.

    Kubiak was a great guy. He was able to lead the team to a SB. But he also was not the most creative or flexible play caller . His insistence that OTs "just need to play better" instead of giving them some blocking help is a prime example.

    With Mccoy anfd Musgrave I hope to see a bit more flexibility. That they can find ways to best use not just Lynch or Siemian but all the players. Adapting the playbook to the players a bit more is a compromise I am looking for. No arguing that Lynch may have struggled with the system. Has it been confirmed he was just too stupid or an inexperience d rookie adjusting the league? Or that Siemian is the smartest QB on the team.

    But isn't it the coach's job to address that before they get on the field. The way that Siemian was always throwing short of first downs and was unable to score points down the stretch has to be considered. Being the most intelligent in the room but unable to perform in critical games is not exactly what the goal is in football. Balance is needed.

    Going to be an interesting to see how both respond to the new system. Last season Siemian benefited to a system more suited for him. Lets see how Lynch responds to one reportedly going to be more suited for him.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brakshow View Post
    So we have to dumb down the offense and convert it into a college style spread because Paxton cannot learn a pro offense? That's ridiculous.

    The QB that learns McCoy's system the best and can execute it the best next year should be the starting QB.

    Defenses in the NFL figured out how to disrupt the spread offense and force the mobile QB back into the pocket a decade ago. That will not work at this level any more unless you have someone as physical as Cam to possibly pull it off as well as a much better line and running game.
    I wouldn't call it dumbing it down you simply add concepts to the offence that made Lynch a high draft pick instead of forcing him to learn a whole new playbook twice in the 2 years he's been a pro which is never a good recipe for success

  12. #57
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    If I were a GM...the very second any member of my staff said something like...." he's too tall, and he won't succeed because of it...it causes his throwing motion blah blah blah" ...he would be fired before he even finished the sentence.

    The stats my indicate that taller QB's have been unsuccessful...but its simply because they sucked....and they would have still been unsuccessful if they were 6'2"

    Text book size and weight that so many people cling to is nothing but complete garbage. In every sport, history is filled with guys who "shouldn't have" been able to accomplish what they did. ...its about Heart and Preparation....guys figure out how to win and be successful...and their size and weight have nothing to do with it.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    The transition from college to pro for QBs involves mental and physical challenges.

    Mental challenges include recognizing defenses and learning an NFL playbook. Defenses, especially coverage, takes a quantum leap from college to pro. QBs see everything from Cover 0 to Cover 9, every possible Combo, invert and rotation including Zone Blitz. Sometimes they see most of that in one game.

    NFL offensive playbooks include more formations, plays, routes, motions and shifts than college, line eligible players up in different spots and invent a language that communicates all of that into one play call. WCO systems are notorious for extremely long play calls.

    That's what Paxton Lynch encountered his rookie season and he didn't have Peyton Manning as a role model the way Trevor did. The college offense Paxton ran at Memphis was simple even by college standards. It was a lot for him to absorb and I can see why some are saying he is lazy or stupid. We'll see how he looks in a new offense which may not be as complex as the one he learned in 2016.

    Physical challenges are passing and playing under center. The degree of accuracy required in the NFL is much greater than in college. The window is much smaller. Arm strength and throwing mechanics, especially footwork, are essential for success. Knowledge of the playbook and chemistry with receivers is vital because the ball is usually released before the receiver is open and ready to catch. It's a huge leap for any college QB.

    Most FBS and many FCS schools use a Spread/Gun formation offense which often includes Double and Triple Option based on reading an unblocked defender. NFL teams use both Spread/Gun and under center formations. College QBs must learn how to take the snap from under center, get to the meshpoint, make or fake the handoff, and take the steps to the spot from which they will set up to throw. They must learn straight dropback from under center. All of that is not as easy as it looks and is a big deal for a QB who has operated from Gun.

    Paxton had a chance to learn all this stuff his rookie season, and I'm sure he learned something. McCoy and Musgrave will be assessing and building on that this year. Trevor and Paxton having game experience in 2016 is significant and a good sign for the QB position in 2017.
    Great post Sam!

    Took 4 pages to get here but as always it was worth it.
    [

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by FR Tim View Post
    I agree with your overall reasoning yet disagree with your statement. In reality, is it as extreme as you state? "Convert it to a college system", really?

    IMO it is a question of rigid conformity to a system compared to a OC adapting the best system to the strengths and weaknesses of his players. Of giving them the best chance to succeed. Was Lynch truly too dumb or just in a system not suited to his skillset. Even Manning had to have the system adjusted to a "hybrid" to best fit him.

    Kubiak was a great guy. He was able to lead the team to a SB. But he also was not the most creative or flexible play caller . His insistence that OTs "just need to play better" instead of giving them some blocking help is a prime example.

    With Mccoy anfd Musgrave I hope to see a bit more flexibility. That they can find ways to best use not just Lynch or Siemian but all the players. Adapting the playbook to the players a bit more is a compromise I am looking for. No arguing that Lynch may have struggled with the system. Has it been confirmed he was just too stupid or an inexperience d rookie adjusting the league? Or that Siemian is the smartest QB on the team.

    But isn't it the coach's job to address that before they get on the field. The way that Siemian was always throwing short of first downs and was unable to score points down the stretch has to be considered. Being the most intelligent in the room but unable to perform in critical games is not exactly what the goal is in football. Balance is needed.

    Going to be an interesting to see how both respond to the new system. Last season Siemian benefited to a system more suited for him. Lets see how Lynch responds to one reportedly going to be more suited for him.
    I get your overall point m8, but Manning was a special case because it so much wasn't that Peyton couldn't run the scheme, it was that his body was incapable of even the smallest rollouts anymore. So any time of bootleg/play action was going to be impossible in his physical condition.

    Any other QB in the league though, especially two in the first couple years in the league and that young; should be able to transform and work in a pro system.

    The problem I have most about reverting to a simple spread is that it's just that, simple. Someone mentioned that even by college standards, Lynch ran a very simple system. That kind of system won't fly in the NFL. They'll figure it out and destroy him after a week of tape. The kid has to learn to work in a pro system and become more adept at all the moving parts of a pro offense.


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  15. #60
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    Before Paxton Lynch, Justin Fuente worked with Andy Dalton. His offence was not that simple. Lynch just needed under centre footwork. Just because he was a shotgun QB doesn't mean the offence was vanilla.

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