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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by champ&dreallday View Post
    I'm with you. I'm starting to warm up a lot more to McCaffery and Cook at #20, but there's no way I'd be a fan of trading up, let's just say to top 10 to take either of them. I like his potential, but I don't see a guaranteed star. Dallas has a great O line that helped him, but Elliott was a lock in my mind to be a stud. Anyone moving up to get him would've been justified. I can't see that in this year's draft.
    Neither will be there at 20. My money is on a trade with New Orleans for their 12th pick (they own two picks in the first, they can move back and add another second and have several picks in the first two days to work with)


  2. #62
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    I still say if Jabril Peppers is one he board at 20 then he's our guy even over McCafferrey however I don't really see him falling that far.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoryWinget81 View Post
    I think you guys have it wrong.

    Cmac isn't Bush 2.0, I think Bush was CMac beta 1.0.

    He can play all over the field on offense and special teams, and doesn't fumble the ball. Moving up to take him? Im shocked that we're that enamored with him but I don't think it'll be a mistake.
    Okay then answer me this, what does McCaffrey do better than Bush? Reggie Bush was the superior college player, not that McCaffrey wasn't good, but just not as good as Bush. I think his upside is having a career like Reggie Bush, the problem with that, it's not worth a first round pick.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
    Neither will be there at 20. My money is on a trade with New Orleans for their 12th pick (they own two picks in the first, they can move back and add another second and have several picks in the first two days to work with)
    That's definitely a possibility from what I'm hearing. How do you feel about moving up to 12 for him? I'm not a fan.

  5. #65
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    11, the saints pick at 11.


    ------------------------------------
    To the other guy, thats not fair comparison. Thats like saying, well look at that corner josh mcdaniels had us trade a future 1st for. Look at his number and compare them to Jason Verett.

    It does not work that way. Look at Sproles. You cannot say because Bush was so and so that Cmac will be (not saying I agree or disagree, just saying its not fair comparison)
    For now....
    1. Reuben Badass LB; 2. Joe Mixon RB; 3. Jake Butt TE; 3B Sid Jones DB; 4. Bucky Hoges TE; 6. Ryan Switzer WR. Trade for Sheldon Richardson.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Okay then answer me this, what does McCaffrey do better than Bush? Reggie Bush was the superior college player, not that McCaffrey wasn't good, but just not as good as Bush. I think his upside is having a career like Reggie Bush, the problem with that, it's not worth a first round pick.
    Well, one thing I'd say is that he's more patient and just in general, looks more comfortable running in between the tackles than Reggie did. Possibly because of better vision, or being tougher? I'm not sure. But, that's just my opinion. I'd also take Christian's hands over reggies. Not that it's a knock on Reggie at all. Christian just has such a natural feel to him when it comes to catching, that matches top receivers that I'd take him over just about any rb when it comes to catching.
    Last edited by ksubroncosfan; 04-10-2017 at 01:07 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by champ&dreallday View Post
    That's definitely a possibility from what I'm hearing. How do you feel about moving up to 12 for him? I'm not a fan.
    I'm all for it, but I'm all in on C-Mac. He's an all around weapon that will be effective in this offense. Not to mention he'll be a great safety valve for TS or Paxton to make their growth into a starting QB easier.


  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksubroncosfan View Post
    Well, one thing I'd say is that he's more patient and just in general, looks more comfortable running in between the tackles than Reggie did. Possibly because of better vision, or being tougher? I'm not sure. But, that's just my opinion. I'd also take Christian's hands over reggies. Not that it's a knock on Reggie at all. Christian just has such a natural feel to him when it comes to catching, that matches top receivers that I'd take him over just about any rb when it comes to catching.
    I was going to say each of those things, but I would also add that C-mac runs some of the best routes I've seen for a RB and could very easily play as a slot receiver on a consistent basis and be as productive or more there than he is in the backfield as a RB. He is a player that the defense will have to account for on every single play. Is he going to block? Take off on a route? Run the ball? Anything that makes the defense hesitate is a positive for every other part of the offense.

    I'd pose the opposite question, what did Bush do better than McCaffrey, because IMO he's got Bush beat across the board.


  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
    I was going to say each of those things, but I would also add that C-mac runs some of the best routes I've seen for a RB and could very easily play as a slot receiver on a consistent basis and be as productive or more there than he is in the backfield as a RB. He is a player that the defense will have to account for on every single play. Is he going to block? Take off on a route? Run the ball? Anything that makes the defense hesitate is a positive for every other part of the offense.

    I'd pose the opposite question, what did Bush do better than McCaffrey, because IMO he's got Bush beat across the board.
    Bush was more dynamic than McCaffrey running the ball. Bush's last season at USC he averaged 8.7 yards per carry, that's on 200 carries. He caught 4 less balls out of the backfield than McCaffrey did, but averaged 1.7 yards per reception more than McCaffrey did over their college careers.

    Plays from Scrimmage, both played 3 years, so it's a fairly equal comparison: McCaffrey 731 touches for 5128 yards (7.0 yards per touch) 31 touchdowns. Bush 528 touches for 4470 yards (8.5 yards per touch) 38 touchdowns.

    Returning ability: McCaffrey 56 KOR for 1479 yards (26.4 yards per return) 1 touchdown. 34 punt returns for 380 yards (11.2 yards per return) 1 touchdown.

    Bush: 67 KOR for 1522 yards (22.7 yards per return) 1 touchdown, 44 punt returns for 559 yards (12.2 per return) 3 touchdowns.

    Looking at the stats, the only advantage McCaffrey had was in KOR, every other area Bush was more dynamic in college.

    Size wise: Coming out of college Bush was just under 5'11 weighed 201 pounds, and ran a 4.33 40 at the combine. 40.5 inch vert, 10 foot 8 inch broad jump and 24 reps on the bench press.

    McCaffrey 5'11, 202 pounds ran a 4.48 40, 37.5 inch vert, 10 foot 1 inch bored jump and 10 reps on the bench press.

    No in no way is that meant to denigrate McCaffrey, it's pointing out that in every measurable and in stats (minus KOR) Reggie Bush came out as a better prospect then McCaffrey is. Which is probably why Bush went 2nd overall and McCaffrey will likely go in the teens.

    Now Reggie Bush's stats in the NFL: 1286 carries for 5490 yards (4.3 yards per carry) 36 touchdowns. 477 receptions for 3598 yards and 18 touchdowns. 6 KOR for a 22.5 yard average. 102 punt returns for 794 yards (7.8 per return) 4 touchdowns. Certainly not a bad career, but is it worth the 20th pick in the draft? Would it be worth the 20th pick and the 52nd pick (if the Broncos trade up to 11)?

    Now compare them to Darren Sproles (4th round), Julian Edelman (7th round), Danny Woodhead (undrafted). You can find a similar skill set later in the draft, there's no reason to spend the 20th pick or the 20th and 52nd pick on a gadget player.
    "I never lose, I either win or I learn."

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Bush was more dynamic than McCaffrey running the ball. Bush's last season at USC he averaged 8.7 yards per carry, that's on 200 carries. He caught 4 less balls out of the backfield than McCaffrey did, but averaged 1.7 yards per reception more than McCaffrey did over their college careers.

    Plays from Scrimmage, both played 3 years, so it's a fairly equal comparison: McCaffrey 731 touches for 5128 yards (7.0 yards per touch) 31 touchdowns. Bush 528 touches for 4470 yards (8.5 yards per touch) 38 touchdowns.

    Returning ability: McCaffrey 56 KOR for 1479 yards (26.4 yards per return) 1 touchdown. 34 punt returns for 380 yards (11.2 yards per return) 1 touchdown.

    Bush: 67 KOR for 1522 yards (22.7 yards per return) 1 touchdown, 44 punt returns for 559 yards (12.2 per return) 3 touchdowns.

    Looking at the stats, the only advantage McCaffrey had was in KOR, every other area Bush was more dynamic in college.

    Size wise: Coming out of college Bush was just under 5'11 weighed 201 pounds, and ran a 4.33 40 at the combine. 40.5 inch vert, 10 foot 8 inch broad jump and 24 reps on the bench press.

    McCaffrey 5'11, 202 pounds ran a 4.48 40, 37.5 inch vert, 10 foot 1 inch bored jump and 10 reps on the bench press.

    No in no way is that meant to denigrate McCaffrey, it's pointing out that in every measurable and in stats (minus KOR) Reggie Bush came out as a better prospect then McCaffrey is. Which is probably why Bush went 2nd overall and McCaffrey will likely go in the teens.

    Now Reggie Bush's stats in the NFL: 1286 carries for 5490 yards (4.3 yards per carry) 36 touchdowns. 477 receptions for 3598 yards and 18 touchdowns. 6 KOR for a 22.5 yard average. 102 punt returns for 794 yards (7.8 per return) 4 touchdowns. Certainly not a bad career, but is it worth the 20th pick in the draft? Would it be worth the 20th pick and the 52nd pick (if the Broncos trade up to 11)?

    Now compare them to Darren Sproles (4th round), Julian Edelman (7th round), Danny Woodhead (undrafted). You can find a similar skill set later in the draft, there's no reason to spend the 20th pick or the 20th and 52nd pick on a gadget player.
    Comparing stats in college is a waste of time usually. Too many variables. Reggie played on some really stacked teams in college with a great COLLEGE football quarterback. People were more enamored with his athletic ability than some of those other abilities that have been mentioned. Stats don't translate to the NFL. You know what does? Football IQ, great hands, vision, patience, instincts, great route running ability that Freyaka pointed out, work ethic, toughness, and then finally strength, agility, and speed.

    When you're in college, the agility, strength, and speed has heavier weight to it than it does in the NFL, because everyone has those. Especially when you're on a team with so much talent around you that you can really spread the field, being that fast can get you a lot of yards without much ability. Not that bush didn't have ability, because he did! Just making the point. But, once you're in the NFL that's when those other aforementioned abilities start to be the difference. And we don't think Bush quite matches up to McCaffrey in those areas overall.

    Mentioning again that McCaffrey, despite being the same size, looked way more comfortable between the tackles than bush ever did. That's pretty important.

    Obviously we just don't find comparing their stats as important as you do. And we also don't feel like he is a simple gadget player as you do.
    Last edited by ksubroncosfan; 04-10-2017 at 03:28 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
    I'm all for it, but I'm all in on C-Mac. He's an all around weapon that will be effective in this offense. Not to mention he'll be a great safety valve for TS or Paxton to make their growth into a starting QB easier.
    My sentiments exactly, It's like getting a Welker in his prime vs the high mileage trade in version.
    My adopted Bronco is Floyd "The Franchise" Little

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksubroncosfan View Post
    Comparing stats in college is a waste of time usually. Too many variables. Reggie played on some really stacked teams in college with a great COLLEGE football quarterback. People were more enamored with his athletic ability than some of those other abilities that have been mentioned. Stats don't translate to the NFL. You know what does? Football IQ, great hands, vision, patience, instincts, great route running ability that Freyaka pointed out, work ethic, toughness, and then finally strength, agility, and speed.

    When you're in college, the agility, strength, and speed has heavier weight to it than it does in the NFL, because everyone has those. Especially when you're on a team with so much talent around you that you can really spread the field, being that fast can get you a lot of yards without much ability. Not that bush didn't have ability, because he did! Just making the point. But, once you're in the NFL that's when those other aforementioned abilities start to be the difference. And we don't think Bush quite matches up to McCaffrey in those areas overall.

    Mentioning again that McCaffrey, despite being the same size, looked way more comfortable between the tackles than bush ever did. That's pretty important.

    Obviously we just don't find comparing their stats as important as you do. And we also don't feel like he is a simple gadget player as you do.
    You keep talking about McCaffrey's hand and route running, Bush had similar numbers catching the ball, was thought of as having great hands, and since he played some slot in the NFL, is equally as capable of running routes as McCaffrey is.

    When people say that McCaffrey is a X factor and can do all of these things, really he has to because he's not good enough to do any single one of them at the NFL level. He needs to be the jack of all trades.

    McCaffrey isn't big enough to consistently run between the tackles in the NFL. The funny thing about the Bush/McCaffrey comparisons, McCaffrey grew up idolizing Bush, that's why he wore 5 at Stanford.

    Here's a Reggie Bush USC highlight film, some nice between the tackles runs in there.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQauccrEEuQ

    And for fun, here's Reggie Bush's draft profile, if you decide that you don't want to read it they said his hands were special and said they were as good as any WR in the 2006 draft. The also talked about how had shown the ability and willingness to run the ball between the tackles.

    http://www.footballsfuture.com/2006/...ggie_bush.html

    As I've said numerous times, if McCaffrey turns out to have the career that Reggie Bush did, that's a very good thing, but it's not worth the 20th pick, nor the 20th and 52nd pick. The same skill set (although maybe not quite as good all around) is available in later rounds. So why waste a high pick on a luxury when you can fill a serious need and then get a version of the same player later?
    "I never lose, I either win or I learn."

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    You keep talking about McCaffrey's hand and route running, Bush had similar numbers catching the ball, was thought of as having great hands, and since he played some slot in the NFL, is equally as capable of running routes as McCaffrey is.

    When people say that McCaffrey is a X factor and can do all of these things, really he has to because he's not good enough to do any single one of them at the NFL level. He needs to be the jack of all trades.

    McCaffrey isn't big enough to consistently run between the tackles in the NFL. The funny thing about the Bush/McCaffrey comparisons, McCaffrey grew up idolizing Bush, that's why he wore 5 at Stanford.

    Here's a Reggie Bush USC highlight film, some nice between the tackles runs in there.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQauccrEEuQ

    And for fun, here's Reggie Bush's draft profile, if you decide that you don't want to read it they said his hands were special and said they were as good as any WR in the 2006 draft. The also talked about how had shown the ability and willingness to run the ball between the tackles.

    http://www.footballsfuture.com/2006/...ggie_bush.html

    As I've said numerous times, if McCaffrey turns out to have the career that Reggie Bush did, that's a very good thing, but it's not worth the 20th pick, nor the 20th and 52nd pick. The same skill set (although maybe not quite as good all around) is available in later rounds. So why waste a high pick on a luxury when you can fill a serious need and then get a version of the same player later?
    Again, you're bringing up stats. I never said anything about christians receiving stats being better. I also didn't say bush had bad hands or bad route running ability. I said, I think Christian has "better" hands in my opinion. In what world is that saying that Reggie isn't good in that regard? I specifically stated it wasn't a knock on his own ability.

    Saying John Elway has a stronger arm than Brett Favre isn't a knock on Favre's arm strength. (Just an example no need to debate the example)

    The one thing I still do disagree with that is said about him in there is his ability to run between the tackles. He may have had a "willingness" to do so. But, he simply did not appear to be comfortable in my opinion. Also, Not interested in highlights when you're judging a guys overall play. Besides, how many football fans haven't seen reggie's highlights? Not many I'd wager.

    But, to answer your question about why. Because, some of us think he's more valuable than a simple gadget player. We disagree with your notion that he's just another Reggie bush. We obviously like some of his other abilities to translate to the NFL better than Reggie. That doesn't make us right. We could be wrong. So could you guys that don't feel that way about Christian. But, that's how we feel. So, that would be why we would pick him that early.

    Btw, 100% disagree with the bolded. The fact that he's a jack of all trades and I think CAN do most if not all of those trades well in the NFL is a big reason why I'd take him in the first round.
    Last edited by ksubroncosfan; 04-10-2017 at 04:35 PM.

  14. #74
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    And to be clear. If I viewed Christian as the same or lesser version as Reggie, I too would feel the same about us drafting him in the first as you do.

  15. #75
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    Big USC fan. I watched Bush play. I've seen what McCaffrey has accomplished the past couple years too. Similar skill sets but not exact.

    The thing that both share is the ability to make dynamic football plays on the football field. I would like to see some of that on the Broncos.

    Those simple things that we have forgotten over the past few yesrs. Big play ability. Consistent first downs and effective RedZone plays. An intelligent safety valve for the QBs. Compare him to Bush, Sproles or Edelman or any player you like. Bottom line is he adds something the Broncos desperately need this year.

    I understand that some dislike a RB or McCaffrey in the first round. Yet that is where most analysts and mock drafts have him. Not just a bunch of wacky fans. If his "gadget " talent was so easily found in later rounds why is he projected so high?

    Finally I do not see the improvement of the offense as a luxury. I see it as a necessity. Whether it be another RB, a TE or McCaffrey the Broncos need a threat in the middle of the field.

    One option is McCaffrey. Simple as that.

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