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Thread: 104.3 The Fan

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerontion View Post
    I wouldn't want to give up on Lynch too early unless Siemian clearly establishes himself as a franchise caliber QB. After all, we potentially control Lynch for 4 more years.
    With Lynch we have all the way up until his contract year, so even if he loses out again we'll have time. But it is a red flag on his draft imo, if even after the offense was modified to suit him and he still cannot beat Trevor. I get that he was a raw prospect, but 2 seasons to catch up, even with a system modification, and still can't start? Not a good look. Eventually unless injury occurs, Trevor will have such a huge advantage over Lynch if he keeps getting these live reps while Lynch rides the pine. And the vice versa for Trevor as well - if he loses out to Paxton he'll have only one more season with the Broncos before being a FA - imo after this season concludes we should try to find value for either one because we already have a decent backup QB (once again, in my opinion) in Kelly, who I think will be pretty hard to beat next offseason.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
    I'd say that is based entirely on how the preseason plays out. If they both perform well and one gets the nod over the other, then we might in the offseason deal one of them. I doubt anyone gets traded during the season because they are both cheap and you cannot beat a cheap and reliable backup option.
    RIght, totally agree. I probably should have phrased that we don't trade in the middle of the season when each one is a reliable backup to the other, but rather in the 2018 offseason when our starter is already decided.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAsianPA View Post
    With Lynch we have all the way up until his contract year, so even if he loses out again we'll have time. But it is a red flag on his draft imo, if even after the offense was modified to suit him and he still cannot beat Trevor. I get that he was a raw prospect, but 2 seasons to catch up, even with a system modification, and still can't start? Not a good look. Eventually unless injury occurs, Trevor will have such a huge advantage over Lynch if he keeps getting these live reps while Lynch rides the pine. And the vice versa for Trevor as well - if he loses out to Paxton he'll have only one more season with the Broncos before being a FA - imo after this season concludes we should try to find value for either one because we already have a decent backup QB (once again, in my opinion) in Kelly, who I think will be pretty hard to beat next offseason.
    I wonder, though, how much better can a guy get sitting on the bench? It's a catch-22. Lynch needs playing time, but he won't get it unless he outperforms Siemian.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Rod- View Post
    So, Siemian was the 39th QB on Rivals.com?

    Carson Wentz was not even ranked by Rivals.com... They did not even create a recruiting profile for him. He had offers from Missouri Valley teams and FCS teams.

    Indeed, Siemian had to rotate with Kain Colter at Northwestern. I can only attribute that to poor coaching in that program. The head coach wanted a running QB to run that simple spread offense that is spreading through college football like a disease and Colter was the kind of athlete with the running ability to do that stuff. When they were forced to throw the ball to get back in the game, the coaches put Siemian on the field.

    I can only imagine the type of success Northwestern could have had installing a more pro-style offense with Siemian as the starting QB, considering his football IQ and ability to absorb information.

    But... How about Carson Wentz at North Dakoa State? He redshirted in 2011, then spent two seasons as Brock Jensen's backup. Yes, he could not beat Brock Jensen for the starting job and only became the starter in 2013, after Jensen left the program. Where is Brock Jensen now? He is playing as a backup in the CFL.

    Could it be another questionable coaching job in college football? Probably. A lot of college coaches defer to seniority when it comes to the QB position. Wentz was kept behind Jensen for two seasons, just like Mitch Trubisky had to serve as Marquise Williams' backup at North Carolina despite being the better QB.

    At Northern Iowa, Kurt Warner was the #3 QB on the depth chart until his senior year.

    If you remember, even Tom Brady rotated with Drew Henson at Michigan and his stock fell because of that. As even Bill Belichick thought before the draft: "Why is Brady getting benched by Drew Henson; what is wrong with him?"

    Does Siemian have a low ceiling because he was ranked as the 22nd QB by CBS? He was flying under the radar like many QBs in the draft process (Warner, Romo...). What does it have to do with his ceiling? CBS ranked Robert Griffin as the #2 QB in 2012, Johnny Manziel was their #2 QB in 2014 and I don't see NFL teams interested in signing these guys.
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertR View Post
    Who cares how some web site ranked him in college? College accomplishments guarantee nothing in the NFL, as has been demonstrated MANY times. All that matters is how he plays in the league.
    Yes everyone can name a handful of guys out of how many QBs have worn an NFL jersey since its existence that has over come all odds and been a diamond in the rough. But they are all outliers.

    Carson Wentz wasn't recruited out of high school, but he did one thing that TS never did. That was show potential to be great. There is a reason why he was the #2 pick. Carson was incredible in college and showed the tools to being an NFL Super Star. TS a bottom 3 QB in the Big Ten his entire time at NW. He never once showed a lick of promise from HS until his final days in the NCAA. That's why people look at him as someone with a low ceiling. It's extremely rare to have a guy who couldn't compete in HS or NCAA just suddenly become a Franchise QB at the NFL level.

    I'd love for Trevor to have a great career, but it's going to take A LOT more than what he showed last year.

    You want to compare his numbers to Wentz, go ahead, but I think it's pretty safe to say Carson's potential is much higher. I'm sure almost every scout or FO person would agree with that.

    Feel free to take the Wentz vs Trevor argument anywhere besides a Broncos Forum and see your responses.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Rod- View Post
    Exactly. Siemian performed better than Wentz, but is considered just a backup with no potential while Wentz has a bright future because the Eagles gave a king's ransom to get him with the 2nd-overall pick. It's insulting.
    Has little to do with that and everything to do with the eye test. Statistically simiem outplayed elway in his second season but I guarantee anybody that watched the two play would say otherwise. Plenty of ways to put together a decent stat line. Also the same things people say of Wentz they don't say about Goff so being a high pick has little to do with it. Simien played like a game manager last year which is why people are not so high on him.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawinkerpoppin View Post
    Has little to do with that and everything to do with the eye test. Statistically simiem outplayed elway in his second season but I guarantee anybody that watched the two play would say otherwise. Plenty of ways to put together a decent stat line. Also the same things people say of Wentz they don't say about Goff so being a high pick has little to do with it. Simien played like a game manager last year which is why people are not so high on him.
    No one is talking about Goff because he was absolutely atrocious last season; he did not win any game and looked completely lost on the field. At some point, the performance is so bad that not even a draft status can save the day.

    Now, your feeling about Siemian is exactly my point in this thread. You say Siemian was just a game manager that does not pass the eye test, but Wentz apparently does.

    So, Wentz throws for only 6.2 YPA (checkdown artist; THAT'S a game manager) and 16 touchdowns in 16 games, only 1 touchdown per game despite 607 pass attempts, and he was not just a game manager? Now look at the turnovers: 14 interceptions, almost as many interceptions as touchdowns. Not to mention he fumbled the ball 14 times and was extremely lucky to lose only 3 of those fumbles. How isn't Wentz considered a game manager and how can he pass the eye test? His passer rating was below 80.0.

    Siemian had 0.8 more YPA, threw for more touchdowns playing 2 less games and having 121 less pass attempts, threw 4 less interceptions and had 10 less fumbles, but he does not pass "the eye test".

    I think that's an eye that just wants to see a 1st-round QB on the field.

    And I will not even compare John Elway's stats to Siemian's stats because we are talking about two different eras with very different rules and difficulty levels for the QB and the passing game overall.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakka27 View Post
    Carson was incredible in college
    Yet again, so WHAT? Tell me what he does in the NFL, not what he did in college. Do I really have to show you a list of "incredible" college players (including Heisman Trophy winners) who were NFL duds?

    See post #66.
    Last edited by RobertR; 05-09-2017 at 09:00 PM.

  8. #68
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    Wentz looks like an NFL superstar because of what he showed at North Dakota?? Lol, thanks for the laugh.

    Don't forget North Dakota has been the most dominate FCS program for the past 10 or so years. They have the deepest roster in the FCS.

    I compare what Wentz had there to what guys like Glen Dorsey and Brock Berlin had at Miami. Those are solid QBs ,but their team made them look even better.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertR View Post
    Yet again, so WHAT? Tell me what he does in the NFL, not what he did in college. Do I really have to show you a list of "incredible" college players (including Heisman Trophy winners) who were NFL duds?

    See post #66.
    You are totally missing the point...

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diggs4 View Post
    Wentz looks like an NFL superstar because of what he showed at North Dakota?? Lol, thanks for the laugh.

    Don't forget North Dakota has been the most dominate FCS program for the past 10 or so years. They have the deepest roster in the FCS.

    I compare what Wentz had there to what guys like Glen Dorsey and Brock Berlin had at Miami. Those are solid QBs ,but their team made them look even better.
    Yes Carson Wentz showed the tools of an elite QB. That's probably why an NFL team with professional scouts traded 4 draft picks to move up and select him with the second overall pick in the draft.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakka27 View Post
    Yes Carson Wentz showed the tools of an elite QB. That's probably why an NFL team with professional scouts traded 4 draft picks to move up and select him with the second overall pick in the draft.
    He was also playing in a pro style offense with some of the top talent in his level. Siemian was playing in a read option offense, he was the Chris Leak in an offense devoid of any kind of playmaking talent. Siemian's first preseason showed more of what he's capable of than anything anyone watched him do in college. You think if Tom Brady played at Northwestern in a read option offense while splitting all the practice reps and defenses knowing to play the pass when he comes on the field, he would fare any better? Really you can insert any QB in Siemian's situation and I doubt the results would be much different.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakka27 View Post
    Yes Carson Wentz showed the tools of an elite QB. That's probably why an NFL team with professional scouts traded 4 draft picks to move up and select him with the second overall pick in the draft.
    And Siemian seems to have more tools than his career at Northwestern suggests. That's probably why an NFL team with professional coaches kept Siemian ahead of the 26th overall pick in the draft for 17 weeks.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawinkerpoppin View Post
    Has little to do with that and everything to do with the eye test. Statistically simiem outplayed elway in his second season but I guarantee anybody that watched the two play would say otherwise. Plenty of ways to put together a decent stat line. Also the same things people say of Wentz they don't say about Goff so being a high pick has little to do with it. Simien played like a game manager last year which is why people are not so high on him.
    Siemian has a better stat line, because at the end of the day I believe he's showing strong football IQ that may translate well next season. Carson Wentz had a lot of timing issues that led to increased interceptions, as well as another massively important stat line - the amount of fumbles. The worst thing a QB can do is turn the ball over, and Wentz did that 10 times more than Siemian. Would you rather take the guy with 14 fumbles or 4? If your reasoning is that he's a first year rookie...well so is Siemian. Bottom line, Siemian played smarter at his position than Goff or Wentz, which shows on his stats. A lot of what Siemian does is underrated outside of this message board - consider the fact that he earned a 3.9 GPA at Northwestern University while playing as a starting QB. He's very smart and it seems he's able to harness much of that into an effective game manager style.

    But I'm not going to praise Siemian high to the heavens any longer, because he was a major reason we led the league in three and outs. The bar has been raised, and last year's performance won't impress again. If he maintains the same level of play then it's time for Lynch and start accessing Lynch's upside. I expect both QBs to step it up in a big way this year; but I really have to ask - are you even going to root for Siemian if he starts? Every post that relates to Siemian I've read from you has been biased against him in one fashion or the other.
    Last edited by TheAsianPA; 05-09-2017 at 10:20 PM.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakka27 View Post
    You are totally missing the point...
    I'm failing to see yours to be honest. You're obviously very high on Carson Wentz, but you keep going back to a lot of intangibles that no one knows for sure whether will translate into elite qualities or not. A college QB can do amazing in a system that is brimming with talent, but everything changes when you get drafted. Every QB ever taken is a gamble, and really no one knows for sure until several years down the road whether or not the pick was right or not. I'm not going to say Siemian is that QB now, but he had a statistically better year, and did show intelligence on several plays. There is upside to him as much as there is to Wentz, because once you start in the NFL what you did in college matters none at all.
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  15. #75
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    There were seven QBs drafted in 2015: Jameis Winston; Marcus Mariota; Garrett Grayson; Sean Mannion; Bryce Petty; Brett Hundley; and, Trevor Siemian. We'll see how they all do this year.

    By the way, Jameis Winston and Trevor Siemian played in the same game last year along with Paxton Lynch. Interesting, huh?
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