GOAT - QBs - My god, not this again?

[Dennis.1960]

Another interesting "what if" is how different it might have been for Dan Marino if the Pittsburgh Steelers had drafted him in 1983.

I remember after Marino's early career success and SB appearance there was a lot of negative press criticizing Reeves development of Elway (throwing him into the fire as an immediate starter then benching him after several confidence shaking poor performances) vs Shula's development of Marino (sitting the 1st few games behind David Woodley so he could get his bearings then turning him loose with confidence). Before the '86 season - and the beginning of Elway fulfilling his destiny of greatness - the common opinion of NFL analysts was Reeves had thoroughly mismanaged the development of his young star and it seemed like the Marino/Shula combo would be returning to the SB often where Elway had become damaged goods and might not recover to have a positive career.

Happy things turned out so differently :lombardi:

[HUMCALC]

Favre and Marino never got the credit they deserve

[Charlie Brown]

Hello all,
Nice to be back, albeit in a small capacity.
I was on the ESPN website and came across another GOAT article. This one, is specifically about QBs since 1978. The reasoning, is that's when the NFL changed blocking and coverage rules. So they excluded Bradshaw, Staubach (I assume), Tarkenton, and of course those "that came before", such as Unitas, Graham etc.

Here is the link:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20096209/nfl-coaches-execs-rank-best-quarterbacks-modern-era-2017

To get to the pain quickly, this was overall ranking: Numbers in (parentheses indicate highest and lowest rank)
1) Brady (1,6)
2) Peyton (1,5)
3) Montana (1,9)
4) Elway (1,8)
5) Rodgers (3,NR)
6) Marino (3,NR)
6) Favre (4,NR)
8) S.Young (2,NR)
9) Brees (4,NR)
10) Fouts (4,NR)
11) Big Ben
11) Warner
13) Aikman
14) Moon
15) Kelly
16) Eli

They didn't list high/low ranks for any QB outside the top 10.
I was shocked somebody ranked Brady as low as 6th, and Montana as low as 9th. Also, suprised that someone ranked Young as #2.
The reality is, with Brady's two recent Rings, he will own the top spot for likely evermore, among those that we are supposed to listen to.....
About a year ago, John Clayton had Brady, Montana, Peyton, as top 3, I forgot the rest of his list.

A little summer reading perhaps?

GOAT means Greatest of All Time.

So, it's a misnomer calling it the GOAT if it is only since 1978. It should be the GS78, Greatest Since 78'.

That'd be like me coming in how and saying the list is wrong and that the GOAT is Marino and the reason I say that is because I only count 1984-1986. Anything before or since doesn't matter.

[JBBronco1]

Tom Brady is the no doubt number 1. Flame me I do not care...it is true.

Ever heard of something called Spygate?

[beastlyskronk]

I'm kind of disturbed about Rodgers ahead of Marino. I think Rodgers is awesome, but not sure how I feel about that one. So if Rodgers wins two more SB's does that move him ahead of Elway, Montana, and Peyton? I mean, if we're gunna go ahead and put him ahead of Marino now, that wouldn't be out of the question right? I think Rodgers is a little better than Favre was, but if we're talking body of work...I dunno. There's always been push back on Marino around here, for obvious reasons, but that dude was really, really good.

I don't think it's that far out there. Rodgers has like a 4:1 TD:INT ratio. In the last 9 seasons (didn't play much the first 3) he has averaged 33 passing TDs a season. Statistically he's as good as anyone. I know passing is a lot easier now but he's better than Brady has been passing. Yes Brady has all the rings but Rodgers hasn't always had a great team around him, dealing with a poor oline early and hit or miss defense throughout. I believe if Rodgers was on some of those Patriot teams, they might have been able to go 19-0.

If super bowl rings weren't factored into this equation, this list would look a lot different IMO.

[TheArtofManning]

GOAT means Greatest of All Time.

So, it's a misnomer calling it the GOAT if it is only since 1978. It should be the GS78, Greatest Since 78'.

That'd be like me coming in how and saying the list is wrong and that the GOAT is Marino and the reason I say that is because I only count 1984-1986. Anything before or since doesn't matter.

You know.....I'm not an idiot.
But "since 1978" is nearly a 40 year period. Your 1984-86 analogy is a 3 year period.

I also, don't necessarily agree with the order on the list, but I think the period of time, is an interesting take.
If they did a GOAT list from 40 year period prior it might look something like:
Unitas
Graham
Baugh
Tarkenton
Staubach
Bradshaw
Starr
Luckman
Jurgenson
Dawson
Tittle

Samparnell, how about giving us your take on say mid thirties through 1977? Is my list above a good start?
I just threw it out there.

[samparnell]

You know.....I'm not an idiot.
But "since 1978" is nearly a 40 year period. Your 1984-86 analogy is a 3 year period.

I also, don't necessarily agree with the order on the list, but I think the period of time, is an interesting take.
If they did a GOAT list from 40 year period prior it might look something like:
Unitas
Graham
Baugh
Tarkenton
Staubach
Bradshaw
Starr
Luckman
Jurgenson
Dawson
Tittle

Samparnell, how about giving us your take on say mid thirties through 1977? Is my list above a good start?
I just threw it out there.

Yes. Refer to post #18 in this thread.

Charlie and I do have a point about the term GOAT/Greatest of All Time being applied to a group from only part of the total time period. Since 1978 can't be labeled "of all time" because it isn't "all time"; it's only part.

As far as your list is concerned, it's representative. If you look back at my previous post, I had Baugh, Luckman, Graham, Starr and Unitas and mentioned Bradshaw. I'm not as enthusiastic about Tarkenton or Staubach, but Sonny Jurgenson is often neglected and including him reflects good knowledge. Len Dawson is a good addition. If Y.A. Tittle (good addition) is included, then you should also consider Norm Van Brocklin and Bobby Layne.

The QBs from this group I think should be on the "real GOAT QB" list are Sammy Baugh, Sid Luckman, Otto Graham, Bart Starr and Johnny Unitas.

[TheArtofManning]

Yes. Refer to post #18 in this thread.

Charlie and I do have a point about the term GOAT/Greatest of All Time being applied to a group from only part of the total time period. Since 1978 can't be labeled "of all time" because it isn't "all time"; it's only part.

As far as your list is concerned, it's representative. If you look back at my previous post, I had Baugh, Luckman, Graham, Starr and Unitas and mentioned Bradshaw. I'm not as enthusiastic about Tarkenton or Staubach, but Sonny Jurgenson is often neglected and including him reflects good knowledge. Len Dawson is a good addition. If Y.A. Tittle (good addition) is included, then you should also consider Norm Van Brocklin and Bobby Layne.

The QBs from this group I think should be on the "real GOAT QB" list are Sammy Baugh, Sid Luckman, Otto Graham, Bart Starr and Johnny Unitas.

I read post #18.

I am curious, why are you not enthusiastic about Staubach and Tarkenton?
Me personally, if I were to rank the pre 1978 QBs, I would probably put them in this order:
Unitas
Graham
Baugh
Starr
Luckman
Staubach
Bradshaw
Tarkenton
Dawson
Jurgenson

I always felt Dawson was easily the best AFL QB (60-69, real AFL)
I liked Staubach a lot. Maybe I am biased in his favor.
Also, didn't the Rams have a very good QB in the 50s, who gets often overlooked? I don't feel like looking it up right now.

[TheArtofManning]

It just came to me:
Bob Waterfield. Had to look it up He was late 40s - early 50s though.
Also, what about Charlie Conerly?

[samparnell]

I read post #18.

I am curious, why are you not enthusiastic about Staubach and Tarkenton?
Me personally, if I were to rank the pre 1978 QBs, I would probably put them in this order:
Unitas
Graham
Baugh
Starr
Luckman
Staubach
Bradshaw
Tarkenton
Dawson
Jurgenson

I always felt Dawson was easily the best AFL QB (60-69, real AFL)
I liked Staubach a lot. Maybe I am biased in his favor.
Also, didn't the Rams have a very good QB in the 50s, who gets often overlooked? I don't feel like looking it up right now.

I didn't say I wasn't enthusiastic about Roger Staubach and Fran Tarkenton, I said I wasn't as enthusiastic about them as I was about Baugh, Luckman, Graham, Starr and Unitas.

My order would probably be:
Otto Graham
Bart Starr
Sid Luckman
Johnny Unitas
Sammy Baugh

I'd have to give some thought and devote some study to fill out the list.

The AFL had a bunch of good QBs and Len Dawson may have been the best. There were also John Hadl, Daryle Lamonica, Jack Kemp, George Blanda, Joe Namath, Bob Griese, Frank Tripucka, etc.

Norm Van Brocklin played for the Los Angeles Rams 1949-57, and the Eagles 1958-60. Charlie Conerly played only for the NY Giants 1948-61.

[Dennis.1960]

I am curious, why are you not enthusiastic about Staubach and Tarkenton?

As an old Vikings fan who witnessed the Tarkenton years first hand, I'm going to make my case for including him in the top 10 GOAT

1) He revolutionized the QB position by defining the pass-era scrambling QB (and I don't mean just stepping out of the pocket, but full on running around like a maniac forcing the D to cover receivers for 5+ seconds) creating the template for many great scramblers to follow including Elway, Steve Young, Randall Cunningham, Russell Wilson & Michael Vick.
2) He scored 32 TD's on 675 carries (meaning ~5% of his scrambles past the LOS were for TD's)
3) He scrambled for TD's in 15 different seasons (still an NFL record for QB's).
4) He is only 1 of 2 QB's to ever rush for at least 300 yards in 7 different seasons.
5) He lead his team to 3 SB's (all losses as we all know).
6) He was the only QB in NFL history to throw 4 TD's in his very 1st start - until Marcus Mariota repeated that in the 2015 season opener...and Fran also ran for another TD in that game. And consider this, Fran wasn't even the starter in that game!!!
7) He played in 9 pro bowls
8) He was the NFL MVP in 1975
9) According to Wiki, in 1978 "At the time of his retirement Tarkenton owned EVERY major quarterback record"..."including pass attempts, completions, passing yardage, TD passes, rushing yards by a QB, and wins by a starting QB" Think about the scope of that one! In 1978 "Fran the Man" literally WAS the GOAT statistically!
10) He is currently in the top 8 in NFL history for passing yards, top 4 in QB rushing yards, top 6 in passing TD's, and top 6 in wins by a starting QB!

So there it is. At the time he played, QB's were expected to stand tall in the pocket and throw, not run around. His scrambling drove his first HC Norm Van Brocklin crazy who continuously threatened to bench him if he didn't stop. Hmmm...crazy talented young QB with an old school over controlling head coach...sound familiar Bronco fans

[samparnell]

As an old Vikings fan who witnessed the Tarkenton years first hand, I'm going to make my case for including him in the top 10 GOAT

1) He revolutionized the QB position by defining the pass-era scrambling QB (and I don't mean just stepping out of the pocket, but full on running around like a maniac forcing the D to cover receivers for 5+ seconds) creating the template for many great scramblers to follow including Elway, Steve Young, Randall Cunningham, Russell Wilson & Michael Vick.
2) He scored 32 TD's on 675 carries (meaning ~5% of his scrambles past the LOS were for TD's)
3) He scrambled for TD's in 15 different seasons (still an NFL record for QB's).
4) He is only 1 of 2 QB's to ever rush for at least 300 yards in 7 different seasons.
5) He lead his team to 3 SB's (all losses as we all know).
6) He was the only QB in NFL history to throw 4 TD's in his very 1st start - until Marcus Mariota repeated that in the 2015 season opener.
7) He played in 9 pro bowls
8) He was the NFL MVP in 1975
9) According to Wiki, in 1978 "At the time of his retirement Tarkenton owned EVERY major quarterback record"..."including pass attempts, completions, passing yardage, TD passes, rushing yards by a QB, and wins by a starting QB" Think about the scope of that one! In 1978 "Fran the Man" literally WAS the GOAT statistically!
10) He is currently in the top 8 in NFL history for passing yards, top 4 in QB rushing yards, top 6 in passing TD's, and top 6 in wins by a starting QB!

That's a great endorsement! :clap:

[Dennis.1960]

That's a great endorsement! :clap:

Thanks Sam...I appreciate that

As a fan I always knew Tarkenton was something special (he was my 2nd fave Viking after Alan Page), but until I compiled these stats I didn't realize just how incredible a career he had and how many records he set. I guess as the host of, "That's Incredible" Fran should have done a show about his own NFL career

[samparnell]

Thanks Sam...I appreciate that

As a fan I always knew Tarkenton was something special (he was my 2nd fave Viking after Alan Page), but until I compiled these stats I didn't realize just how incredible a career he had and how many records he set. I guess as the host of, "That's Incredible" Fran should have done a show about his own NFL career

I was a Joe Kapp fan.

[grmc]

I was a Joe Kapp fan.

Kapp was a bit before my time.

Interesting debate. If I had to take one QB to plug into a team with an average coach, defense and ST's, with say a few days to prepare, it would be Montana, Elway, or Rodgers. I would feel one of these three would give the team the best chance of a win. Mostly based on the eye test...nothing factual to back up my opinion. And probably I'd take Rodgers out of these three.

Manning, Brady, Marino, and others of course could do the job, but I feel that these guy's skillset is best suited to having a system in place. Their greatness has more of a component of their system, than their pure QB skills.

And this being a Broncos house, here's a bone...I think of the 'system' QB's, that Brady indeed benefits most from his system...that is knowing BB's offense as good as BB, the design around his limitations, and the best awareness of the opponents defense in the league, courtesy of Ernie Adams, of course.