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  1. #616
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    Apr 2004
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    413
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel B. View Post
    I kind of agree.

    Elway built a great defense (via Wade Phillips) but his QB drafting and o-line drafting & trades (minus Leary & Bolles) have been complete and embarrassing failures coming from someone you'd think would know QB talent & offensive line talent being one of the greatest QB's of all time and after winning 2 rings playing behind one of the greatest o-lines of all time.

    But I guess that's why you have talent scouts and position coaches. In any case, Elway, 'his' talent scouts & 'his' positions coaches have all failed on that end miserably!
    No, Elway's apparent failures have much more to do with the bad draft position he had to work with. It's highly atypical for a quarterback drafted as low as Lynch and Osweiler were to become more than decent backups. See this post where I go through the draft history of where quarterbacks drafted between mid-first round and the bottom of the second round overwhelmingly end up:

    https://forums.denverbroncos.com/sho...01#post5606701

  2. #617
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    May 2008
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    Of course Elway deserves criticism for the current state of the offense. That said, I can't think of anyone I would believe in more to right the ship. Just like any GM, Elway has had some misses. He's also had a decent amount of hits. If there's a crack shot, sure fire alternative, I implore anyone to name him.

  3. #618
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    Feb 2014
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    2,926
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Football View Post
    Okay well I am glad we established that and I think you looked way too far into my original comment. My bad for taking a shot at you, sorry, I was just frustrated with you not understanding my initial comment and accusing me of saying something I didn't.

    On the second part of your post, I look at it differently. A lot of the players who Elway brought in that you are listing are solid guys, but they are guys everyone already knew the story on and everyone knew what they were getting when they were signed. I don't see bringing in guys like Dressen, Tamme, Mathis, Welker, Charles, Vasquez, Sanders, Daniels, Leary, etc. makes you a good evaluator of talent. Some of these guys were pro-bowl or borderline pro-bowl players before coming to Denver, and all were veteran, well-established players in the league.

    The way I see it is a General Manager has two main ways of building a team, free agency and the college system. If you as a General Manager bring in free agents that contribute to the team, improve the team, and live up to the money they were signed for, it makes you a good decision maker, not evaluator of talent because you know what you are getting. It's when you can look at unknown prospects from the college system, look at their skills, qualities and traits and evaluate their game to see how it translates to the next level, and draft them players and develop them players hopefully into contributing members on the team, that you are a good evaluator of talent, and John Elway just isn't that on the offensive side of the ball.
    Thanks. I'm sorry for misreading what you said. There's no doubt Elway has been better at picking offensive free agents than drafting them. And free agents are already a known commodity. Still, it takes some skill to gauge whether a FA will fit in well with a team or not. Some guys go to a new team and it's simply the wrong fit. I don't see too many offensive free agents that have been a bust.

  4. #619
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnitedInOrange View Post
    Elway is fully accountable for his outcomes. Which GM shouldn't be? But let's be clear about his performance.

    -Two years removed from recent SB success and a 4-year dominant stretch
    -No losing seasons in his tenure
    -Very poor drafts in last five years; bottom-5 according to majority of external assessments
    -Championship level defense maintained due to strong free agency and contract moves
    -No franchise or even "decent" level QB on roster
    -Offensive line is bottom 5-10 and has glaring holes, although there are several worse lines in the NFL

    He should be accountable for all the above. But does the above performance warrant any more than "you really should do better"? Do you think he should be fired? Warned? Disciplined? I mean, I think I've been fairly objective in the above (particularly his drafting), but it's no where near panic, change-the-GM level. In fact, at least half the teams in the league would probably think it an upgrade. Now, if he outright tanks the next 2-3 seasons, then another discussion can be had, but at this current (even mediocre) trajectory, his seat will be cool for years.
    Elway's biggest issue - IMO was that he never prioritized the O-Line in the last year or two when Manning was here. For example, it was clear that Manning in the year leading into Kubiak's 1st year here was not in a great way. Therefore form a future planning perspective it would make sense to ensure that whichever young QB had the needed protection to succeed.

    So when we look at the 2015 NFL draft:

    1 23 (trade w/ DET) Shane Ray OLB
    2 27 (59) Ty Sambrailo OL
    3 28 (92) Jeff Heuerman
    4 34 (133) Max Garcia OL
    5 28 (164) Lorenzo Doss CB
    6 27 (203) Darius Kilgo DT
    7 33 (250) Trevor Siemian
    7 34 (251) Taurean Nixon DB
    7 35 (252) Josh Furman DB

    Aside form the guy who is bolded and underlined most on this list were never steals or top talent in the draft. In fact many are not on the team any longer and this would have been a draft we needed to hit on at least 1-2 lineman to bolster our line. Not only to help Manning but also to help the QB of the future.

  5. #620
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    Sep 2008
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    3,650
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_C View Post

    So when we look at the 2015 NFL draft:

    1 23 (trade w/ DET) Shane Ray OLB
    2 27 (59) Ty Sambrailo OL
    3 28 (92) Jeff Heuerman
    4 34 (133) Max Garcia OL
    5 28 (164) Lorenzo Doss CB
    6 27 (203) Darius Kilgo DT
    7 33 (250) Trevor Siemian
    7 34 (251) Taurean Nixon DB
    7 35 (252) Josh Furman DB
    This makes me sick looking at this. So many terrible players in one drafting. How is it possible to draft so many scrubs in one draft!? Our scouting team needs to be fired just for this lol

  6. #621
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
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    887
    Half of the NFL teams haven't been to the Super Bowl in the last 20 years.

    And here we are, swirling around in a toilet bowl of emotions, trying to find ourselves again but we're really losing ourselves and our sanity.
    I believe.

  7. #622
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    May 2008
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    2,251
    In all reality, this team isn't a dumpster fire - though you couldn't tell from the boards lately. LOL.

    He has certainly missed on the offensive side in the draft, no doubt. Heck, he has missed in the 2nd and 3rd rounds in general (though I think Gotsis is looking better ATM).

    Still, if you look at the team as a whole, especially compared to what he inherited - not too shabby, eh?

    Elway is an uber competitive guy - everybody who has been around him has said this over and over. Yes, he's brash, but most confident/competitive guys are.

    I'm pretty sure Elway cares deeply about this team and will continue to field a competitive team year after year. I agree the offense looks horrible right now and we are in jeopardy of wasting a very talented defense. We are a RT, G, and QB away from perennial contention. He'll get us there.

  8. #623
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    Nov 2008
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    3,097
    While watching Osweiler today, all I could think about was how John Elway thought it would be a good idea to give this horrible QB a massive contract and make him a franchise QB lol. Fortunately, Osweiler chose to steal Houston's money instead.

    Elway, like 99% of former legends, is a poor talent evaluator. Hopefully the Broncos bring somebody in to evaluate the QB position going forward.

  9. #624
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    Mar 2009
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    I think we need right side OL before we go for a QB.
    Red 98

    The early bird may get the worm, but the 2nd mouse gets the cheese

  10. #625
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    Oct 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murph2432 View Post
    This makes me sick looking at this. So many terrible players in one drafting. How is it possible to draft so many scrubs in one draft!? Our scouting team needs to be fired just for this lol
    Our 2017 draft looks like it'll go the same route. our top pick is turning out pretty well with Bolles, but Walker, Carlos Henderson, Brendan Langley, Jake Butt, and Chad Kelly are all non performers, injuries and performance. Isaiah McKenzie will probably head the way of bust as well if he keeps fumbling. You just simply can't draft 7 or 8 guys and only have one consistent player. Next year some of these players are going to have to step up, and huge. Elway has not only been bad at it, he has been horrendous. These missed drafts have forced the team into signing expensive FA players, which as of late are also poor contributors to the team, like Watson.
    Superbowl 50 Champions!

  11. #626
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    Oct 2006
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    Butt is a legit player and should be fine. Bolles is serviceable. Who knows about Carlos, bc he's hurt (although we took him over Kareem Hunt). So, if we end up with 3 starters.... not terrible.

    Elway is fine but how he handles his previous poor decisions is critical moving fwd.
    Does he admit mistakes with Vance and Paxton or does he compound the error?

  12. #627
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    Mar 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAsianPA View Post
    Our 2017 draft looks like it'll go the same route. our top pick is turning out pretty well with Bolles, but Walker, Carlos Henderson, Brendan Langley, Jake Butt, and Chad Kelly are all non performers, injuries and performance. Isaiah McKenzie will probably head the way of bust as well if he keeps fumbling. You just simply can't draft 7 or 8 guys and only have one consistent player. Next year some of these players are going to have to step up, and huge. Elway has not only been bad at it, he has been horrendous. These missed drafts have forced the team into signing expensive FA players, which as of late are also poor contributors to the team, like Watson.
    And what about Deangelo Henderson? This dude looked like a star in preseason and we just swept him under a rug
    Red 98

    The early bird may get the worm, but the 2nd mouse gets the cheese

  13. #628
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    Nov 2009
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    Oh Yea...Right there!
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    What does DeMarcus Walker do for this team? It seems like taking a O-Lineman in the 2nd would have been a much wiser choice.

    I am sure Walker might have been the best player available and would be a great contributor to some team, but he cannot be the best player for us if he doesn't play.
    https://media.giphy.com/media/cAgxSFqbyaQgeyY3VA/giphy.gif

  14. #629
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    Nov 2017
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    4
    Let's face it the Broncos stink all the way around: offense, defense, special teams coaching and team management. Kiszla was right today when he said Joseph must go. But Elway and Ellis have turned a world Champion football team into rubble in just one year. Someone must pay. Enough is enough.

  15. #630
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    Oct 2015
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    San Antonio
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzolve View Post
    And what about Deangelo Henderson? This dude looked like a star in preseason and we just swept him under a rug
    Gotta save roster spots for CJ, Booker, and Charles. Pretty hard to put four RBs on active roster. Probably means CJ and Charles are heading out.

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