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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houshmazode View Post
    This thread's going way off on a tangent.
    What the heck Bolles? You have a future hall of famer trying to help you during games and you won't listen to him? Pull your head out of your butt, boy.
    agreed
    ....


    CP bet with Freyeka that CJ Anderson is traded during the draft

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by FR Tim View Post
    I'll make a wild generalization from your comment. Are you a mid 20's college grad that feels underappreciated by the boss? Maybe those "older people" getting the attention, promotions and raises you think should be rightfully yours?

    In this case, the "older people" have earned the respect by surviving for several seasons in a highly competitive dog eat dog environment. If the rookies are not listening to the accomplished vets. (SB winners!) then I am assuming they are not listening to the coaches either. Guys like McKenzie or Bolles (penalties) should be kissing the backsides of those older people and begging them to teach them what they have learned from experience gained.

    While I agree the lines are much more blurry in the real world. Those older people you dismiss have done the job and typically have earned the bumps and bruises of working in the real world.

    And yes, I'm an older person with a biased pov. In an emotionally challenging field that I have earned my wrinkles and cynical nature. Every couple years when I'm breaking in the new crop of college grads passing through with all their optimism and sense of entitlement I smile at how quickly they realize how hard it is to be a professional before they "need a break" and move on to an easier job.

    Bronco rookies need to learn from their "elders" instead of thinking they know it all and tune out the vets. Disappointed to see this report and it's implications but hardly surprises me.
    I think much of what you're saying is meant to be interpreted in a moderately positive fashion but I think the way by which you've positioned some of the stances on items is a bit one sided.

    For example if I am an up-coming LT in the league and Donald Stephenson is harping at me to do things better or a different way I'm likely not going to be excited or open to much of his advise. Particularly if it is not prefixed by "I cannot do this but this is what I would do if I could....". Why is that important? Simple - if someone is to critique they must also be willing to either admit or to acknowledge their areas of improvement /weaknesses as well.

    Now on the flip-side as a rookie LT if a guy like Von Miller comes up to you and says "hey - the technique that pass-rusher used on you worked because he notices your hands drop right after the ball is snapped....or something similar...then I'd say it behooves you to shut your trap, try to implement what he is trying to help you with and thank him for his assistance. The difference is that Von is not only a Pro-bowl player but he is also Elite at his position. So what he is helping you with from "the other side" is valuable information.

    I think this is also why in 2015 we never had any of these issues. The guys who were 'putting their foot down' so to speak were two of the best to EVER play their positions. As a result there was no grounds for ANY of the rookies to step up and say I am better than you....

    Rookies and young players who should have listened to our vets include:

    1. Doss, Langley, Roby -> CHJ & Talib (Doss was cut)
    2. McGovern -> Leary
    3. Gotsis, Harris -> Wolfe
    4. Demarcus Walker, Deiontrez Mount -> Von Miller
    5. Henderson, Booker -> CJ Anderson & Jamal Charles
    6. Cody Latimer, I. McKenzie -> E.Sanders (If either of these two guys ignored his advise I'd argue to cut him)

    Part of me wonders as well if this was one of the reasons why Tyrique Jarrett was cut. Was he not open to be helped out by guys like D.Peko?

  3. #18
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    Do not agree that advise or criticism can only be given by a "better" player.

    Even a struggling journeyman OT like Stephenson can provide valuable feed back to a rookie or younger player. Just because he "can not do it" does not mean his years in the league battling other professionals in practices and games, watching tape to identify opponent's tendencies and weaknesses and being coached by professional coaches has left him with nothing to pass on to a rookie.

    I would say that a good team should be open to learning from everyone. Maybe Bolles could pass on a technique or useful tip to help Stephenson become better.

    My point is experience is something earned. Respect that. Same as hard work and talent. Combine them all and you can have something special. Correct me if I am wrong but I think the point the article is expressing is too many of the young guys are thinking they know it all without having that experience.

  4. #19
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    Character matters. Scouts and personnel staff MUST assess character. Steelers and Patriots find a way to promote their culture by drafting players with the right mentality and by instilling that culture day to day. They pass on players with more talent if they don’t have the right character. The Broncos are desperate and that means they take on players who will cause problems. What does this say about Elway, VJ, and our staff?

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by FR Tim View Post
    Do not agree that advise or criticism can only be given by a "better" player.

    Even a struggling journeyman OT like Stephenson can provide valuable feed back to a rookie or younger player. Just because he "can not do it" does not mean his years in the league battling other professionals in practices and games, watching tape to identify opponent's tendencies and weaknesses and being coached by professional coaches has left him with nothing to pass on to a rookie.

    I would say that a good team should be open to learning from everyone. Maybe Bolles could pass on a technique or useful tip to help Stephenson become better.

    My point is experience is something earned. Respect that. Same as hard work and talent. Combine them all and you can have something special. Correct me if I am wrong but I think the point the article is expressing is too many of the young guys are thinking they know it all without having that experience.
    Let me start by saying that rookies that come into the league need to be at the very least open to be both coached and taught...if they're not then I truly don't see how they will ever become better then just OK.

    Now my point was two-fold. One lets look at a guy like Bolles and Stephenson. Despite Bollles' penalties he is still, even as a rookie, a superior player than Stephenson - period. So now as a competitor I am looking at a guy who has been benched more than once for poor play and he is going to try and potentially harp on me about how to play and what to do better? As a player if you've outplayed someone regularly and then that someone comes in to try and critique you their approach should be that of a mentor-ship role and tone and not that of entitlement and being condescending. Respect is something earned it is not just given. Someone else's experience should be factored into how you repsond to someone and how you recieve that perosn's information but so should their delivery and so should their performance.

    Let me pose this to you - What if some of those vets were trying to teach things that were contrary to the coaches? What if some of the techniques these vets were trying to pass along were NOT correct?

    So again I go back to Stephenson if he has accrued all of this knowledge about how to prepare and what to do in ALL of these different situations why isn't he capable of executing? If his VAST experience has allowed him to develop his technique then why is he not capable of applying it? - it is these types of questions and their answers why I feel it is important for an inferior player who has learned things to level set the expectations of the conversation and call out his own failings. I believe that for a younger player who has shown he is better on the field will respond to that better.

    So I see this as more of an approach and attitude by both the vets and the rookies. If the vets are simply a better player and are willing to pass along knowledge then great - the rookies should shut their yap and listen. If the rookie that comes in is a better player - then the vet who wants to mentor should level set as to ensure they are not coming off as condescending.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiddyupGetEm View Post
    Character matters. Scouts and personnel staff MUST assess character. Steelers and Patriots find a way to promote their culture by drafting players with the right mentality and by instilling that culture day to day. They pass on players with more talent if they don’t have the right character. The Broncos are desperate and that means they take on players who will cause problems. What does this say about Elway, VJ, and our staff?
    The Pats have long taken guys with Character issues and incorporated them into their culture. I look no further than their former RB- L.Blount. IT is also interesting the assessment you've made because both of these teams have a luxury of a SB winning long tenured QB. I wonder how different these teams and their approaches would be if they did not have the QB's they do?

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by FR Tim View Post
    Do not agree that advise or criticism can only be given by a "better" player.

    Even a struggling journeyman OT like Stephenson can provide valuable feed back to a rookie or younger player. Just because he "can not do it" does not mean his years in the league battling other professionals in practices and games, watching tape to identify opponent's tendencies and weaknesses and being coached by professional coaches has left him with nothing to pass on to a rookie.

    I would say that a good team should be open to learning from everyone. Maybe Bolles could pass on a technique or useful tip to help Stephenson become better.

    My point is experience is something earned. Respect that. Same as hard work and talent. Combine them all and you can have something special. Correct me if I am wrong but I think the point the article is expressing is too many of the young guys are thinking they know it all without having that experience.
    This. The team needs to promote a culture of respect, but players also need to leave their ego out of it when receiving constructive criticism. The idea isn't "this is why you're wrong," but instead "this is how you can get better."

    EDIT - Also, it shouldn't matter where it's coming from. Coaches, Vets, Rookies, ball boys, etc. If it's a valid criticism, it doesn't matter where it comes from. Be responsible enough to take it and get better.
    Last edited by SecondsAway131; 01-16-2018 at 09:32 AM.
    2017 Adopt-A-Bronco is Von Miller

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecondsAway131 View Post
    This. The team needs to promote a culture of respect, but players also need to leave their ego out of it when receiving constructive criticism. The idea isn't "this is why you're wrong," but instead "this is how you can get better."
    Exactly right.
    Maybe a guy like Stephenson just isn't as athletic and capable.....body limitations. That doesnt mean he doesn't know what's right or can't provide feedback.

    I can't play the piano very well, but I can tell when someone is out of tune. Now if I told said piano player they are out of tune there is nothing wrong with that. But if I criticize said player and then gave my version it would be laughed off.
    I don't think we have lesser players saying look at how I do it, I'm sure it's more of a "listen" to how to do it.

    I really want to like Bolles, but his play and reports like this have me wondering if we reached for the wrong guy. I don't want an entitled young Richie Ingognito type player. I truly hope he becomes the LT we need.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by FR Tim View Post
    I'll make a wild generalization from your comment. Are you a mid 20's college grad that feels underappreciated by the boss? Maybe those "older people" getting the attention, promotions and raises you think should be rightfully yours?

    In this case, the "older people" have earned the respect by surviving for several seasons in a highly competitive dog eat dog environment. If the rookies are not listening to the accomplished vets. (SB winners!) then I am assuming they are not listening to the coaches either. Guys like McKenzie or Bolles (penalties) should be kissing the backsides of those older people and begging them to teach them what they have learned from experience gained.

    While I agree the lines are much more blurry in the real world. Those older people you dismiss have done the job and typically have earned the bumps and bruises of working in the real world.

    And yes, I'm an older person with a biased pov. In an emotionally challenging field that I have earned my wrinkles and cynical nature. Every couple years when I'm breaking in the new crop of college grads passing through with all their optimism and sense of entitlement I smile at how quickly they realize how hard it is to be a professional before they "need a break" and move on to an easier job.

    Bronco rookies need to learn from their "elders" instead of thinking they know it all and tune out the vets. Disappointed to see this report and it's implications but hardly surprises me.
    I was gonna say liberal arts grad.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiddyupGetEm View Post
    Character matters. Scouts and personnel staff MUST assess character. Steelers and Patriots find a way to promote their culture by drafting players with the right mentality and by instilling that culture day to day. They pass on players with more talent if they don’t have the right character. The Broncos are desperate and that means they take on players who will cause problems. What does this say about Elway, VJ, and our staff?
    What? The Steelers?

    Ben Rapelisburger, don't me started.

    James Harrison, what a moral, upstanding guy.

    LaGarrette Blount also comes to mind.

    Character certainly counts and we certainly have some guys that have issues but to hold up the Steelers as the pinnacle of saintliness is just laughable.
    Last edited by broncoslover115; 01-16-2018 at 11:41 AM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncoslover115 View Post
    What? The Steelers?

    Ben Rapelisburger, don't me started.

    James Harrison, what a moral, upstanding guy.

    LaGarrette Blount also comes to mind.

    Character certainly counts and we certainly have some guys that have issues but to hold up the Steelers as the pinnacle of saintliness is just laughable.
    And you totally left off... deflategate Brady
    Spy gate B.B.
    Hernandez?

    And the list goes on....
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieMac View Post
    And you totally left off... deflategate Brady
    Spy gate B.B.
    Hernandez?

    And the list goes on....
    I was just coming back to post that. And let us remember, that BB brought in Blount and James Harrison into their fold.

    And let's not forget Chandler Jones and his incident.

    Every team has some of these guys. Some more, some less. None of these teams are saints.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecondsAway131 View Post
    This. The team needs to promote a culture of respect, but players also need to leave their ego out of it when receiving constructive criticism. The idea isn't "this is why you're wrong," but instead "this is how you can get better."

    EDIT - Also, it shouldn't matter where it's coming from. Coaches, Vets, Rookies, ball boys, etc. If it's a valid criticism, it doesn't matter where it comes from. Be responsible enough to take it and get better.
    I completely agree that a culture of respect is both needed and required to get better and win on a more consistent basis. In my opinion that mentality needs to come from the head coach and filter right down to the position coaches. There is a reason why NE is capable of weathering some of the highest profile controversies in NFL history and win a Championship at the end of the season. Their HC has a discipline and he expects that from EVERYONE who works for him and all of the players who play for him as well. I also agree that taking constructive critique and suggestions from those around you is key. Where you lose me is the where it is coming from - I believe that matters. Particularly if the information you're receiving from different people and coaches is contradictory. For example if I am McGovern and Leary is giving me some advise on how to manage and block certain looks or what to watch for in the film room - I am likely to listen. Then if Garcia comes up and tells be how to block someone and what to watch for in the film room and it is at odds with what Leary told me and what my coaches have told me - do you think I am going to follow that or even listen to the end of what he's telling me? - probably not. With the general availability of Social Media platforms and the followings that some of these NFL players can accrue it stands to reason that unless the HC has a 'lid' on the locker room like NE then we will see this type of reporting come out for the foreseeable future.

    I'd also question what is valid criticism and what isn't? Who determines that?

    Also I wonder if open critique in team meetings and film rooms could go a long way to bridge the gap in acceptance of constructive critique. IF and when a young player lips back and he was the one who made an error it is up to the position coach to put him in his place. Then it is up to the coach to coach the player up and ensure he is applying what was taught. If the player has not taken what he was told and taught and applying it then perhaps that player should be bumped for the game a rung down and left a different player move up. If that happens once or twice....the culture will change.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncoslover115 View Post
    I was just coming back to post that. And let us remember, that BB brought in Blount and James Harrison into their fold.

    And let's not forget Chandler Jones and his incident.

    Every team has some of these guys. Some more, some less. None of these teams are saints.
    Randy Moss is another NE guy with character issues when he played. What I do find interesting though is what do all of these guys have in common:

    - Aaron Hernandez
    - James Harrison
    - Randy Moss
    - LaGarrette Blount
    - Chandler Jones

    We can even add:
    - Terrell Owens
    - Ray Lewis


    ALL of these players were or have been good, great or excellent players in the NFL. Even when these players had 'bad years' they were still good to great NFL players. Until the NFL viewers change their viewing habits or more importantly their game attendance habits to reflect the moral and personal decisions that these owners make we will not see any changes...ever....period.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_C View Post
    I completely agree that a culture of respect is both needed and required to get better and win on a more consistent basis. In my opinion that mentality needs to come from the head coach and filter right down to the position coaches. There is a reason why NE is capable of weathering some of the highest profile controversies in NFL history and win a Championship at the end of the season. Their HC has a discipline and he expects that from EVERYONE who works for him and all of the players who play for him as well. I also agree that taking constructive critique and suggestions from those around you is key. Where you lose me is the where it is coming from - I believe that matters. Particularly if the information you're receiving from different people and coaches is contradictory. For example if I am McGovern and Leary is giving me some advise on how to manage and block certain looks or what to watch for in the film room - I am likely to listen. Then if Garcia comes up and tells be how to block someone and what to watch for in the film room and it is at odds with what Leary told me and what my coaches have told me - do you think I am going to follow that or even listen to the end of what he's telling me? - probably not. With the general availability of Social Media platforms and the followings that some of these NFL players can accrue it stands to reason that unless the HC has a 'lid' on the locker room like NE then we will see this type of reporting come out for the foreseeable future.

    I'd also question what is valid criticism and what isn't? Who determines that?

    Also I wonder if open critique in team meetings and film rooms could go a long way to bridge the gap in acceptance of constructive critique. IF and when a young player lips back and he was the one who made an error it is up to the position coach to put him in his place. Then it is up to the coach to coach the player up and ensure he is applying what was taught. If the player has not taken what he was told and taught and applying it then perhaps that player should be bumped for the game a rung down and left a different player move up. If that happens once or twice....the culture will change.
    I agree with what you're saying. My thoughts are that these are professional players. If you received different types of advice, discuss it. Talk about it with the players, bring it up with the coaches. Hear the why's and the how's of what someone is trying to say, and get clarity if it's needed. There doesn't need to be a "X player is better, so I'm going to listen to him instead of you."

    Furthermore, in your example about Garcia contradicting coaches and other teammates, the right move is to talk to Garcia about it and discuss why you think differently. Maybe Garcia is missing something and needs some help as well. Just choosing to ignore doesn't help anyone, and it isn't particularly what a good teammate would do.

    There are many nuances to the game. What works for one player might not be as helpful to another. Keeping up the discussion between players and coaches is healthy. Dismissing someone because of ego or perceived talent level not only stalls the discussion, but it isolates and divides players. That's not a healthy team dynamic.
    2017 Adopt-A-Bronco is Von Miller

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