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  1. #1396
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    Quote Originally Posted by 18Broncos View Post
    And the Broncos had faced teams with better point scoring allowed overall than the Texans.
    Oh, and if that FG went it, the Broncos would have surpassed the Texans in offensive point scoring.

  2. #1397
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    Quote Originally Posted by JW7 View Post
    Or the Aaron Rodgers and Patrick Mahomes experiment shows the benefit of letting a player learn. No sense in cherry picking. Paxton Lynch didn't care to learn or be good at football. It's most important that the Broncos select the right guy this time around.

    Keenum is improving. He is not the long term answer by any means but hoping that another Free Agent will come in and save the franchise is a tired strategy.
    I was thinking about Chad Kelly today. Man, did he miss out on a likely opportunity to start for the broncos. If he were still on the roster and had not done what he did that warranted him getting cut, all of Broncos Country would be screaming for Kelly and probably would be of the mind to allow growing pains to happen. He would have started, I'm sure of it. What a shame.

  3. #1398
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    Quote Originally Posted by maaskesr View Post
    Well, the problem is that we probably can't find a better QB for the money we save. Right now, I would lean towards letting him go, but I have a sneaking feeling we'll be keeping him, unless something crazy happens.
    I don't have a magic ball, but Keenum is not the starter next year. Maybe he'll be in a qb competition next preseason, but will lose out to some young q.b acquired through the draft.

    It's not that Keenum is terrible, but G.M's and NFL franchises are always looking for lightning in a bottle with quarterbacks. Quarterbacks that can change the outcome of a game through athleticism or intelligence or a mix of both.

    Andy Reid letting go of Alex Smith in favor of an unproven Mahomes was questionable at the time. I know I assumed they would be worse off without Smith.

    I wish I watched college football. There has to be some young gun coming out next draft that the Denver Broncos can draft between the 7th and 13th picks.

    Keenum will not be a starter next year for the Denver Broncos, to me he looks worse than Trevor Siemian but not as bad as Brock Osweiler.

    I'm a patient and devoted fan, but if Keenum is starting next season I know the season is over before the first game even starts.

  4. #1399
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    Quote Originally Posted by 18Broncos View Post
    The most important thing is 23.7 ppg given up.
    That's 16th in the league while this team is built on the D. The money. The draft resource.
    The D has NOT carried it's own weight.

    The Texans are a similar team, built on the D.

    The Broncos have 22 TDs and 13 FGs on offense.
    The Texans have 21 TDs and 19 FGs (but 3 of those were in OTs, so 16 FGs in regular time.)
    That's a 2 point total in difference for 9 games.

    Yet, the Texans are 6-3 while the Broncos are 3-6.

    The difference is definitely in the Defense.
    The Broncos defense held both the Chiefs and Rams offenses to their lowest scores this season.

    You want to compare the Texans and Broncos on offense, but Deshaun Watson has 17 passing TDs, 6 more than Keenum, and 7 interceptions.

    Keenum already has 10 interceptions, 2nd most in the entire league, and just 11 passing TDs which is below average, 20th in the NFL. Keenum has mediore production despite the running game averaging the best YPC in the NFL.

    The defense being ranked 16th in points allowed is a big issue to you, but Keenum having the 2nd most interceptions and being ranked 20th in passing TDs is not an issue at all? Okay, keep twisting and turning to find a way to justify your "1st-round grade" on Keenum.
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  5. #1400
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Rod- View Post
    The Broncos defense held both the Chiefs and Rams offenses to their lowest scores this season.

    You want to compare the Texans and Broncos on offense, but Deshaun Watson has 17 passing TDs, 6 more than Keenum, and 7 interceptions.

    Keenum already has 10 interceptions, 2nd most in the entire league, and just 11 passing TDs which is below average, 20th in the NFL. Keenum has mediore production despite the running game averaging the best YPC in the NFL.

    The defense being ranked 16th in points allowed is a big issue to you, but Keenum having the 2nd most interceptions and being ranked 20th in passing TDs is not an issue at all? Okay, keep twisting and turning to find a way to justify your "1st-round grade" on Keenum.
    I agree with you especially about keenum but I just want to say donít forget all the penalties the broncos have committed this season which has played a huge factor as well and would come back to bad coaching and zero discipline.

  6. #1401
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Rod- View Post
    The Broncos defense held both the Chiefs and Rams offenses to their lowest scores this season.

    You want to compare the Texans and Broncos on offense, but Deshaun Watson has 17 passing TDs, 6 more than Keenum, and 7 interceptions.

    Keenum already has 10 interceptions, 2nd most in the entire league, and just 11 passing TDs which is below average, 20th in the NFL. Keenum has mediore production despite the running game averaging the best YPC in the NFL.

    The defense being ranked 16th in points allowed is a big issue to you, but Keenum having the 2nd most interceptions and being ranked 20th in passing TDs is not an issue at all? Okay, keep twisting and turning to find a way to justify your "1st-round grade" on Keenum.
    Half a season is a small sample size, considering the play calling.

    A QB can only run whatever play that was called.
    The OC wants the back to punch the ball in, he will.
    The OC wants to call a reverse, the team will run it.
    The OC wants to run a fake reverse for the receiver to throw the ball, he will be happy to.
    The OC wants the QB to run the ball in, Keenum will.

    It's a team game, and the OC call the plays.

    ........

    Keenum was in the top 5 in Red Zone efficiency last year.
    https://www.numberfire.com/nfl/lists...rbacks-in-2017

    ......

    Did you watch all the games the Texans play?
    I did.

    Receivers were schemed open for easy TDs.
    No holding penalties and fewer break downs in protection.

    Those are the things that can help a team score.

    It's not all on the QB.

  7. #1402
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    Quote Originally Posted by 18Broncos View Post
    Keenum was in the top 5 in Red Zone efficiency last year.
    https://www.numberfire.com/nfl/lists...rbacks-in-2017
    So Case Keenum is not the issue because he was in the top 5 in RZ efficiency last year? This keeps getting better and better...
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  8. #1403
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    Quote Originally Posted by champ&dreallday View Post
    I hate to be pessimistic, but the actions of our front office has made me believe we're going down the same road with Keenum as we did with Siemian. Many of us knew Trevor wasn't the guy and wouldn't make it, but many hoped he'd progress and the defense would get us through until he developed. Only he never did, turned the ball over and caused the defense to struggle trying to make up for the offense. Eventually, they even turned on the offense. Minus the salaries, I see the same situation with Keenum. He has no competition at QB (and we shouldn't have been surprised MGK did something stupid and got cut) , and at this point in the season, we're stuck with him. I could see a bogus "QB competition" being named for next season, with Case being named the starter and we're in the same boat next year......just like with Siemian. I hope I'm wrong.
    Excellent points. But you know what sticks in my craw about Keenum? Most people knew he was a lower tier NFL QB before he came here and despite his wonderful season with the Vikings, it was pretty easy to see he was just a guy who could throw the ball, had intelligence, was accurate on most throws but doesn't do his best all the time. If I could say it honestly, Keenum is pretty close to being the Kyle Orton and that's not all bad. As I recall Orton won quite a few games for the Bears and the Chiefs as well as the Broncos. He was a decent QB. But even when he was playing well for us, I don't recall feeling like he was going to lead us to the SB.
    Anyway, Elway and Vance and Musgrave had to know that before we got him. It wasn't a mystery or a case of seeing what he could do. I don't blame the front office for going after him, he is pretty good, but he obviously wasn't THE QB to take us anywhere. My memory isn't that good but what I recall about the Keenum signing was a statement that we had "Found our QB. Our guy". It seemed like the search for a QB was declared over. Even then when I was soooo optimistic about this season, I thought it was odd that we seemed to stop our search once we had Case, but then the draft was coming soooo. Then we didn't seem to make a play for any of the QBs in the draft.
    Was Elway and his staff satisfied with Case? Were they counting on getting a QB in the draft? I know if I were Vance Joseph I would have been furious with Elway that he would not go after one of those QBs. I'm no longer a Vance supporter, but the guy is being expected to do great things with the QB room he inherited. That does seem a bit unfair.

  9. #1404
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    Quote Originally Posted by 18Broncos View Post
    The most important thing is 23.7 ppg given up.
    That's 16th in the league while this team is built on the D. The money. The draft resource.
    The D has NOT carried it's own weight.

    The Texans are a similar team, built on the D.

    The Broncos have 22 TDs and 13 FGs on offense.
    The Texans have 21 TDs and 19 FGs (but 3 of those were in OTs, so 16 FGs in regular time.)
    That's a 2 point total in difference for 9 games.

    Yet, the Texans are 6-3 while the Broncos are 3-6.

    The difference is definitely in the Defense.
    You're cherry picking. Denver ranks 23rd in the league in converting 3rd downs, 26th in time of possession, 17th in first downs per game, 18th in TDS, 22nd in RZ attempts per game, 19th in PPG, 25th in passing first downs per game, 19th in YPA, 25th in average QB rating.

    By comparison, the running game ranks 20th in rush attemps (bad bad bad coaching and heres why), yet ranks 8th in the league in yards per game, TDs per game, rushing first downs per game.

    You rank 20th in the league for attempts but still are in the top 10 in most critical stats running the ball.

    My point is this. This offense does not stay on the field and does not score in the passing game. We throw nearly 62% of the time, rush a little over 38%.

    TWENTY SIXTH IN TIME OF POSSESSION.

    26.

    Even the year after the SB when most of the defense was still intact, still ended up 28th in the league in rushing yards a game from the opponent. You can have an amazing D but if your offense cant stay on the field and move the ball your defense is going to be dead in the water.
    Last edited by CoryWinget81; 11-08-2018 at 07:29 AM.

    Hooray, beer!

  10. #1405
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoryWinget81 View Post
    You're cherry picking. Denver ranks 23rd in the league in converting 3rd downs, 26th in time of possession, 17th in first downs per game, 18th in TDS, 22nd in RZ attempts per game, 19th in PPG, 25th in passing first downs per game, 19th in YPA, 25th in average QB rating.

    By comparison, the running game ranks 20th in rush attemps (bad bad bad coaching and heres why), yet ranks 8th in the league in yards per game, TDs per game, rushing first downs per game.

    You rank 20th in the league for attempts but still are in the top 10 in most critical stats running the ball.

    My point is this. This offense does not stay on the field and does not score in the passing game. We throw nearly 62% of the time, rush a little over 38%.

    TWENTY SIXTH IN TIME OF POSSESSION.

    26.

    Even the year after the SB when most of the defense was still intact, still ended up 28th in the league in rushing yards a game from the opponent. You can have an amazing D but if your offense cant stay on the field and move the ball your defense is going to be dead in the water.
    Right. Denver is 40% run/60% pass right now. If it was 50/50, Denver's rushing attempts would rank 1st. Even if it was 45% run/55% pass, which is balanced by NFL standards, their rushing attempts would rank 6th.

    Royce Freeman being out right now doesn't help but, regardless of that, Denver needs a balanced O with at least half the pass attempts play action. If it was me half the plays would be run and all the pass attempts would be play action. It's not a good pass blocking line anyway and showing run steps on every play might be an improvement. QB should boot out of every meshpoint whether it's give or PAP. All run plays should have a play-action companion. All run plays should be part of a series (e.g., sweep series, counter series, trap series, zone series), but that's just my opinion.

    With Paradis on IR and McGovern at C, IMO they should keep Wilkinson at RG, make Garcia backup C/G, move Bolles to LG, Veldheer to LT and Turner to RT.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  11. #1406
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Right. Denver is 40% run/60% pass right now. If it was 50/50, Denver's rushing attempts would rank 1st. Even if it was 45% run/55% pass, which is balanced by NFL standards, their rushing attempts would rank 6th.

    Royce Freeman being out right now doesn't help but, regardless of that, Denver needs a balanced O with at least half the pass attempts play action. If it was me half the plays would be run and all the pass attempts would be play action. It's not a good pass blocking line anyway and showing run steps on every play might be an improvement. QB should boot out of every meshpoint whether it's give or PAP. All run plays should have a play-action companion. All run plays should be part of a series (e.g., sweep series, counter series, trap series, zone series), but that's just my opinion.

    With Paradis on IR and McGovern at C, IMO they should keep Wilkinson at RG, make Garcia backup C/G, move Bolles to LG, Veldheer to LT and Turner to RT.
    Nah... doing that might actually save VJ's job and ruin our top 5 pick, Elway's going to "stay the course" instead...

  12. #1407
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    Quote Originally Posted by WYBRONCO View Post
    Exactly. I will concede that Keenum is better than, Siemian, Lynch, Sanchez, and Osweiler, though he seems to be play pretty solid right now. But the thing is he isn't playing well enough for us to be a winning football team. I don't blame him for every loss, but his interceptions have been very costly, and not many of them were WR miscommunications or poor catch attempts. They were bad throws or decisions. At this point unless you believe or backups have even a sniff of being successful long term QB's you have to look for more help next year. Unless Keenum is darn close to amazing the rest of the season what choice do we have but replace him?
    I get your point but I don't understand the logic of cutting him after this season. There is too much dead money involved for it to make sense. Keenum can actually move the ball and convert 3rd downs. Something this offense has lacked for two years. Cutting him and bringing in another free agent makes zero sense to me.

    Draft your QB of the future next year and have him learn from a veteran QB. Let the rookie take over when it makes sense and have Kennum walk after the 2019 season unless you can retain him for backup money.

  13. #1408
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    Quote Originally Posted by JW7 View Post
    I get your point but I don't understand the logic of cutting him after this season. There is too much dead money involved for it to make sense. Keenum can actually move the ball and convert 3rd downs. Something this offense has lacked for two years. Cutting him and bringing in another free agent makes zero sense to me.

    Draft your QB of the future next year and have him learn from a veteran QB. Let the rookie take over when it makes sense and have Kennum walk after the 2019 season unless you can retain him for backup money.



    The only problem with this Logic is there is no QB in next years draft to groom. Now 2020 is different story.

  14. #1409
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENVERSB50CHAMP View Post
    The only problem with this Logic is there is no QB in next years draft to groom. Now 2020 is different story.
    I disagree. Same was said about the draft with Goff and Wentz during this time of the season of their upcoming draft and they are two of the better QB's in the league now. There is talent at the position in the upcoming draft, you just need to give them the right system and coaching staff to grow.

  15. #1410
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    Quote Originally Posted by JW7 View Post
    I disagree. Same was said about the draft with Goff and Wentz during this time of the season of their upcoming draft and they are two of the better QB's in the league now. There is talent at the position in the upcoming draft, you just need to give them the right system and coaching staff to grow.
    the right coach could have made case workable and allowed us to make the post this year ...but we don't have that

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