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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilSpawn View Post
    Gruden didn't get robbed as he received two first rounders on top of the ones they already have. You seem to think top 10 picks are automatic and anything lower is a bust. It's all about what happens on the field and that's to be determined in the next several years.
    Quote Originally Posted by bears6385 View Post
    When you consider that Gruden made the Mack trade with the idea that the Bears would not improve in 2018 and he would then get at least a very high draft pick, he simply did not do his homework on this team. In 2017 with a bad team the Bears D was in the top 10, and then added both Smith in the draft and Mack. Gruden seemed to only assume that the Bears would continue to be a horrible team. He misread the situation and got fleeced. Mack is one of the best defenders in the league playing at the highest level, Jacobs could not even win a starting job in college. Jacobs and next years #1 would have to be special players to justify this trade.....not seeing it.
    This is interesting for me, because this is a "debate" between 2 of the best fans of other teams...IMHO.

    I think this trade will have to be judged a number of years from now, because Mack is a stud, but the compensation for him may be significant over time. Might turn out to be a good deal all around.
    Last edited by CanDB; 05-15-2019 at 12:50 PM.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by bears6385 View Post
    When you consider that Gruden made the Mack trade with the idea that the Bears would not improve in 2018 and he would then get at least a very high draft pick, he simply did not do his homework on this team. In 2017 with a bad team the Bears D was in the top 10, and then added both Smith in the draft and Mack. Gruden seemed to only assume that the Bears would continue to be a horrible team. He misread the situation and got fleeced. Mack is one of the best defenders in the league playing at the highest level, Jacobs could not even win a starting job in college. Jacobs and next years #1 would have to be special players to justify this trade.....not seeing it.
    What about next year's first rounder? I still don't buy this "got fleeced" opinion since he traded two first rounders for one and those players have yet to play.

    We all agree both players have to be special but for us. Or maybe one special, one very good. And we all agree Gruden underestimated where Chicago would pick...well Reggie McKenzie was the one who said they thought one team would pick too low (I forgot who).

    I don't follow Alabama football but looking at the stats, it was a 3 headed monster that didn't rely on one back to get the most carries. Looking at the draft profile for the two that were eligible, Jacobs was rated higher than Harris. Why? I don't know since I don't follow Alabama, but we'll see if they're right. We'll be bumping this thread a plenty.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanDB View Post
    This is interesting for me, because this is a "debate" between 2 of the best fans of other teams...IMHO.

    I think this trade will have to be judged a number of years from now, because Mack is a stud, but the compensation for him may be significant over time. Might turn out to be a good deal all around.
    yup...and thanks.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyBrady12 View Post
    The Raiders save a lot in cap space. That is the real benefit.
    Yep. last year the Bears had a ton of cap space and used it to get Mack. Maybe the Raiders will get lucky enough to find a player that dominant to use their cap space on like the Bears did.

    Bears still have over 13 million in cap space right now. Since they don't really need any free agents they will probably use that to extend a few players.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilSpawn View Post
    What about next year's first rounder? I still don't buy this "got fleeced" opinion since he traded two first rounders for one and those players have yet to play.

    We all agree both players have to be special but for us. Or maybe one special, one very good. And we all agree Gruden underestimated where Chicago would pick...well Reggie McKenzie was the one who said they thought one team would pick too low (I forgot who).

    I don't follow Alabama football but looking at the stats, it was a 3 headed monster that didn't rely on one back to get the most carries. Looking at the draft profile for the two that were eligible, Jacobs was rated higher than Harris. Why? I don't know since I don't follow Alabama, but we'll see if they're right. We'll be bumping this thread a plenty.
    If Fangio was still in Chicago, Iíd tend to agree with Bear6583 when he talks about first round compensation.

    However since I believe that window isnt as wide with Fangios departure to Denver, I think Gruden has a very good shot at obtaining a high mid first rounder. Nothing to high but nothing to low, but somewhere between 13- 24 which could translate to a serious play maker but not a super star.
    Last edited by Sam_Z; 05-16-2019 at 01:11 PM.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    If Fangio was still in Chicago, I’d tend to agree with Bear6583 when he talks about first round compensation.

    However since I believe that window isnt as wide with Fangios departure to Denver, I think Gruden has a very good shot at obtaining a high mid first rounder. Nothing to high but nothing to low, but somewhere between 13- 24 which could translate to a serious play maker but not a super star.
    I don't see this Bears D slowing a bit. Vic is a great DC, but Pagano is also right there, if anything Pagano is a more aggressive play caller. He is getting a defense that is bringing back 10 of 11 starters, with no plans to alter that defense. To me it is like going from Buddy Ryan's '85 defense to Vince Tobin's '86 squad that set a then record for points allowed.


    I would say our window is even wider than last year with Trubisky in his second year in Matt Nagy's offense. An offense that was able to bring in more weapons in free agency and the draft for Nagy to play with. As said I don't think Vic's departure will have much of an effect at all on this defense. It is still loaded with pro bowl and all pro talent at every level, and Pagano is good at his job.


    Projections are tough to make at this time of year, but based on last year the Bears pick should be low in the first round. We also own the Raiders second round pick which could be a high one, which might not be that far removed from a low first.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by bears6385 View Post
    I don't see this Bears D slowing a bit. Vic is a great DC, but Pagano is also right there, if anything Pagano is a more aggressive play caller. He is getting a defense that is bringing back 10 of 11 starters, with no plans to alter that defense. To me it is like going from Buddy Ryan's '85 defense to Vince Tobin's '86 squad that set a then record for points allowed.


    I would say our window is even wider than last year with Trubisky in his second year in Matt Nagy's offense. An offense that was able to bring in more weapons in free agency and the draft for Nagy to play with. As said I don't think Vic's departure will have much of an effect at all on this defense. It is still loaded with pro bowl and all pro talent at every level, and Pagano is good at his job.


    Projections are tough to make at this time of year, but based on last year the Bears pick should be low in the first round. We also own the Raiders second round pick which could be a high one, which might not be that far removed from a low first.
    That would be adding insult to injury. lol

    Anyway I know Pagano is very good at what he does However I donít see the Bears defense picking up right where they left off.

    I they are not changing the defense up much but the verbiage and terminology has to be different, so thatís going to take time but like I said I donít see the Raiders picking all that high with the bears pick.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilSpawn View Post
    What about next year's first rounder? I still don't buy this "got fleeced" opinion since he traded two first rounders for one and those players have yet to play.

    We all agree both players have to be special but for us. Or maybe one special, one very good. And we all agree Gruden underestimated where Chicago would pick...well Reggie McKenzie was the one who said they thought one team would pick too low (I forgot who).

    I don't follow Alabama football but looking at the stats, it was a 3 headed monster that didn't rely on one back to get the most carries. Looking at the draft profile for the two that were eligible, Jacobs was rated higher than Harris. Why? I don't know since I don't follow Alabama, but we'll see if they're right. We'll be bumping this thread a plenty.
    I believe next years first round pick will be taken by the Raiders in the same area of the draft or lower. He could turn out to be a special player, good player or bust, as could the Raiders second rounder that the Bears own because the value for a low first or high second is not that much different. Gruden gave up a generational talent and a high draft pick for projected picks that turned out lower than expected. Gruden chose projection over production thus he got fleeced.


    What is the bust level for first round picks? I went back to the 2017 draft and found 11 picks that are at or approaching bust level, of those six are picks between 20 to 31. What I have always found among fans of every team is that they overvalue their top picks. The draft is nothing more than a lottery where we as fans hope our numbers come in. Gruden's draft record going back to his Buc's days is not very good.


    For the last three years Harris has been the lead back in a RBBC who made a mistake coming back for the 2018 season. In 2016 and 2017 he averaged over 7 ypc. In 2018 it dropped to 4.7 his worst year, though he still maintained his lead back role. Bama also always has one of the best OL's in the nation every year. So between Bamas Ol and RBBC I find it very hard to judge their RB's. I can remember good NFL backs from Bama but no great one's.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    That would be adding insult to injury. lol

    Anyway I know Pagano is very good at what he does However I don’t see the Bears defense picking up right where they left off.

    I they are not changing the defense up much but the verbiage and terminology has to be different, so that’s going to take time but like I said I don’t see the Raiders picking all that high with the bears pick.
    Actually he is keeping the terminology the exact same. He is learning it all and keeping it the same for the players.

    http://sportsmockery.com/2019/01/eve...ss-conference/

    From the article. What he wants to do is adapt himself to the system in place and learn the terminology himself rather than asking the players to do so. He feels it’s more efficient for one man to make that transition rather than an entire roster of players.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chitown View Post
    Actually he is keeping the terminology the exact same. He is learning it all and keeping it the same for the players.

    http://sportsmockery.com/2019/01/eve...ss-conference/

    From the article. What he wants to do is adapt himself to the system in place and learn the terminology himself rather than asking the players to do so. He feels it’s more efficient for one man to make that transition rather than an entire roster of players.
    Wow I hadnít heard this but Pagano is one courageous man in so many ways.

    I admire his enthusiasm!

  11. #86
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    For the 2019 season this could be the AFCW Khalil Mack reunion tour. Starting week two in Denver. Bronco fans rarely disappoint. In week five DevilSpawn should have something interesting to say, and of course in week eight everyone's favorite troll Baph. He is always ready to share his opinions.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by bears6385 View Post
    For the 2019 season this could be the AFCW Khalil Mack reunion tour. Starting week two in Denver. Bronco fans rarely disappoint. In week five DevilSpawn should have something interesting to say, and of course in week eight everyone's favorite troll Baph. He is always ready to share his opinions.
    I really hope the Raiders have a fair record at worst. Even though I can hold my own in smack regardless, it's easier when I have SOME ammunition.

  13. #88
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    Top 20 traded players

    NFL.com has a list of the top 20 players of all time traded in their prime. I found this interesting for me personally because Mack was surpassing my favorite all-time Raider linebacker before he was dealt.

    20) Khalil Mack, pass rusher

    Traded from: Raiders to Bears, 2018.

    Mack, at least at the time of his trade to Chicago, was as dominant a performer as any player on this list. It's difficult to gauge Mack's legacy, with such limited service in the league and only one season in his new locale under his belt. Yet, you can make the argument that perhaps no player has ever been traded while playing at the level Mack has these last few seasons. When he was healthy in 2018, no defensive player was better, as his 12.5 sacks and 18 QB hits were huge reasons the Bears had one of the most feared defenses in the league, and he helped foster great team success. After another year like that, people are going to talk about Mack as a future Hall of Famer.


    3) Ted Hendricks, linebacker

    Traded from: Colts to Packers, 1974 AND from Packers to Raiders, 1975.

    An ill-fated attempt to play in the WFL led to Hendricks' trade to the Packers and then his becoming a free agent, whereupon Green Bay dealt his rights to the Raiders for two first-round picks. At the time, there was little doubt he was the most disruptive outside linebacker in pro football, coming off a season in which he picked off five passes and was named first-team All-Pro. In those days, outside linebackers were not "sack" guys. They played in 4-3 defenses, made tackles, interceded in the passing lanes and occasionally blitzed. Hendricks could do it all exceptionally well -- oh, and he became the best kick blocker the NFL has ever known. The Raiders were getting a complete player. A difference maker. Over nine seasons, the heady play and high football IQ of the 6-foot-7 Hendricks sent him to four more Pro Bowls and pushed the Raiders to three Super Bowl titles.
    The Packers obviously lost big time in the trade since they only made the playoffs once in the next 20 years since that trade, and that was in a strike shortened season. Hendricks eventually became our greatest linebacker of all-time. The two draft picks would turn out to be Ezra Johnson, a good defensive end, and Mark Koncar, a mediocre lineman.

    Anyway, we'll see where this eventually goes.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilSpawn View Post
    I really hope the Raiders have a fair record at worst. Even though I can hold my own in smack regardless, it's easier when I have SOME ammunition.
    Very selfishly I hope it takes till the 2020 season for the Raiders to jell with all the moves they have made. With the way Pace has drafted the last few years a high second would look real good.


    Now a question for you DS...….Eddie Piniero, how did he look with the Raiders last year before he was injured? In your opinion does he have the accuracy and leg of an NFL kicker?

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilSpawn View Post
    NFL.com has a list of the top 20 players of all time traded in their prime. I found this interesting for me personally because Mack was surpassing my favorite all-time Raider linebacker before he was dealt.






    The Packers obviously lost big time in the trade since they only made the playoffs once in the next 20 years since that trade, and that was in a strike shortened season. Hendricks eventually became our greatest linebacker of all-time. The two draft picks would turn out to be Ezra Johnson, a good defensive end, and Mark Koncar, a mediocre lineman.

    Anyway, we'll see where this eventually goes.
    If he did not miss games last year Mack may have been rated a bit higher. Over the next few years, with the Bears defensive talent around him he should really excel.

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