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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    My god that is a horrible draft, it's hard to defend that one. 2018 is looking pretty solid, but man John Elway has to be close to having some serious questions asked of him from someone above, problem is, who does he answer to ? Who would even fire him ?
    You can't judge the quality of a draft in one year John. Boles is a starter, Walker will have a lot of contributions on the d-line as part of the rotation of linemen, Henderson is likely a bad pick...If he gets his head straight he could turn it around, but he's like a bad pick. Langley is probably also a bad pick. Butt could potentially be our starting TE in the future and looks to contribute this year. McKenzie seems to have turned a corner as a kick returner and played very well he may or may not pan out, too early to tell. De'Angelo Henderson is gone, that wasn't a bad pick, but a bad choice to cut him. Chad Kelly is a 7th round pick who looks like at minimum a solid backup, at best he could be our future starter.

    It's way, way, way premature to call it a "horrible draft".

    Elway's job is in good shape...The man just won a superbowl a few years ago. When a hall of fame QB leaves, you have a few years of turmoil. We're on the verge of coming out of this and I feel like this is going to be a playoff year for us this season.

    I'm gonna have to roll my eyes at the mention of Elway needing or getting fired...
    Last edited by Freyaka; 09-06-2018 at 06:13 AM.


  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    My god that is a horrible draft, it's hard to defend that one. 2018 is looking pretty solid, but man John Elway has to be close to having some serious questions asked of him from someone above, problem is, who does he answer to ? Who would even fire him ?
    Joe Elis would be the guy to question him but I doubt he ever gets fired. More less Elway will step down on his own when heís ready. Kubiak most likely would be the top candidate for GM if that happens sooner than later!

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by baphamet View Post
    ill admit, that was a quality write up and i much prefer this than the simple drive by trolling you normally do.

    a couple things i would like to argue though.

    #1 lets not forget, i'm not the one hyping tom telesco as the best GM in the league like most of you have done with elway at one time or another.

    #2 the fact you can't keep them on the roster as well is on elway.

    but yes, i'll give you your point as far as players staying in the NFL but if you look at each draft that elway has done, at least compared to telesco because that's the only comparison ive seen, it lools below average, especially recently.

    as far as the attempt at smack i tried in this thread? i didn't need to try, the facts in my OP speaks for itself. is it not a fact that half elway's draft last year is already off the team? tha'ts horrendous. especially considering that two of them were third round picks.

    talk about swing and a miss?
    1. I cannot recall anyone saying he was and if indeed they did,they are discussions between 2012-2015 that would warrant it in that period of time...taking a 4-12 team and assembling one of the greatest offenses ever seen...then completely revamping and assembling one of the greatest defenses to ever play



    how ever you did say this about telecso
    https://forums.denverbroncos.com/sho...69#post5018669

    SD Chargers: the most under-rated team in the NFL
    since you donkeys (fans and players alike) are so fixated on the seahawks and last years SB debacle, i'm here to bring you (and the media) back to reality.

    since the hiring of Tom Telesco and Mike McCoy a year and a half ago, the charges are the most improved team in the division, and one of the most improved in the NFL.

    they went from a team full of older and slower veterans with less talent, to a younger faster and much deeper team in under two years.

    on offense San Diego has arguably the deepest running back and TE depth in the league. their WR corp and OL is where they have the least depth but even in those positions they have improved in both talent and scheme.

    with the additions of Keenan Allen and Malcom Floyd coming back from a serious neck injury, as well as the quick strike passing attack and the new no huddle approach to the offense MM installed last year, it compliments both those positions even better this season.

    on defense we have also upgraded talent across the board in that same time frame. we trimmed the fat by getting rid of older players, players that were apart of the old regime that were just not cutting it (Larry English for example), and have vastly upgraded youth and talent in the secondary.

    in just one season we went from having one of the worst talented secondaries i have personally seen, one with very little depth, to a secondary with good talent and a lot of depth IMO.

    defense is still a question mark for this team but it for sure looks to be going in the right direction.

    yet despite all that......despite the fact that rivers and the San Diego chargers competed with a team that was in rebuild mode after cutting a lot of vets.......competed with Denver, beat them in their house and even went on the road and won a playoff game........they are getting no love from the media or really anyone outside SD.

    rivers will have even more control over the offense this year, which will now be no huddle and even more up tempo than it was last year.

    rivers and the charges are not on many peoples' radar. the negatives i am seeing media pundits and fans in general argue against them is the fact that they lost Ken Whisenhunt and how people are waiting for them to "revert back to the old chargers".

    people in general seem to not really know whats going on in SD and the great job the new chargers regime has done in under two years.

    first of all, i think the offense will be more potent this year minus KW, i think losing him is almost a non factor due to the fact that we have rivers and he will be given even more control of the offense this year (as well as the reasons i already mentioned).

    second of all, the chargers will never revert back to how they were when norv and AJ were there. if they struggle in any way, it will be for new reasons, not because they are reverting back to the way they were under norv.

    that team and offense is long gone and rivers has flourished ever since. another negative i hear from people is we don't have weapons in the passing game......

    they simply look at our WR depth and assume that is the case. they say that all we have is Allen but we have Allen, floyd, gates, green, woodhead, Donald brown, and Mathews......all potent weapons in our passing attack.


    so i am here to tell you today that the chargers may not be media darlings, few people may have taken notice to how TT has quietly improved this team vastly since getting hired.

    but you are all going to find out the hard way and when you do i will be here to remind you!

    The San Diego Chargers, your (soon to be) 2014 AFC West Champions!

    you disagree? i will sig bet anybody here that does. that goes for you too seahag fans, come on down to the murph in week 2 and get dealt with properly!

    Phillip Rivers and the SD chargers are the most under-rated team/QB in the NFL right now and you will all see why soon......

    how many rings?...afc west titles?...anything other then most excuses used for failures

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by arapaho View Post
    1. I cannot recall anyone saying he was and if indeed they did,they are discussions between 2012-2015 that would warrant it in that period of time...taking a 4-12 team and assembling one of the greatest offenses ever seen...then completely revamping and assembling one of the greatest defenses to ever play



    how ever you did say this about telecso



    how many rings?...afc west titles?...anything other then most excuses used for failures


  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by arapaho View Post
    1. I cannot recall anyone saying he was and if indeed they did,they are discussions between 2012-2015 that would warrant it in that period of time...taking a 4-12 team and assembling one of the greatest offenses ever seen...then completely revamping and assembling one of the greatest defenses to ever play
    oh at that time huh? more gutlessness i see? even now miller58 thinks hes the best GM in the NFL and here is a thread for ya!

    https://forums.denverbroncos.com/sho...ighlight=elway



    how ever you did say this about telecso



    how many rings?...afc west titles?...anything other then most excuses used for failures
    that's a petty big reach as i didn't say telesco was a great GM, just said they were the most improved and look at the talent they have now? even shanon sharpe is on the chargers bandwagon due to the talent they have, which you are incapable of seeing.



    Last edited by baphamet; 09-06-2018 at 02:56 PM.


    Welcome Back! #85

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by #87Birdman View Post
    The contracts they demanded is part of the reason. Plus paying top contacts to players isn't what wins superbowls. Having players perform on rookie contracts is what normally wins the superbowl.

    As far as what we have done recently or 2016 draft ws fairly decent. Lynch cut and dixon or 7th traded for a 7th everyone else is starting or solid rotation.

    Gotsis - starting DE
    Simmons - starting safety
    Booker - starting third down back
    McGovern- starting guard
    Janovich- starting fullback
    Parks - solid safety rotation

    So the draft to get that many starters is what you want. Yes the Lynch pick was bad but missing on the first round pick but still getting that many starters isn't a fail.
    elway is known to be a "low baller" ive seen some of you broncos fan call him that constantly. i still think elway has done a good job overall and i do think most broncos fans have come back to earth on elway as a GM, compared to most thinking he was the best GM in the league at one point or another.

    ive said before that if the broncos do become legit SB contenders again post manning i will be here to admit i was wrong, we will see.


    Welcome Back! #85

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by baphamet View Post
    elway is known to be a "low baller" ive seen some of you broncos fan call him that constantly.
    Constantly???
    You do know if your called out in this youíre going to have to name names right? Not the smartest thing to do especially if you have to provide proof!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd_baph_christmas
    i still think elway has done a good job overall and i do think most broncos fans have come back to earth on elway as a GM, compared to most thinking he was the best GM in the league at one point or another.

    ive said before that if the broncos do become legit SB contenders again post manning i will be here to admit i was wrong, we will see.
    So what you trying to hop the Elway bandwagon now? You just accused Shannon Sharpe of doing just that when heís only trying to give credit to your mediocre team!

  8. #53
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    Baphs has multiple personalities or something:
    You ask him is Elway a good gm:


    Then a week later he's telling somebody how he feels about Elway :


    Always eating and keeping his cake.
    .....Some fear Terrorist.....I view them as JUSTIFIED TARGETS!!

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
    You can't judge the quality of a draft in one year John. Boles is a starter, Walker will have a lot of contributions on the d-line as part of the rotation of linemen, Henderson is likely a bad pick...If he gets his head straight he could turn it around, but he's like a bad pick. Langley is probably also a bad pick. Butt could potentially be our starting TE in the future and looks to contribute this year. McKenzie seems to have turned a corner as a kick returner and played very well he may or may not pan out, too early to tell. De'Angelo Henderson is gone, that wasn't a bad pick, but a bad choice to cut him. Chad Kelly is a 7th round pick who looks like at minimum a solid backup, at best he could be our future starter.

    It's way, way, way premature to call it a "horrible draft".

    Elway's job is in good shape...The man just won a superbowl a few years ago. When a hall of fame QB leaves, you have a few years of turmoil. We're on the verge of coming out of this and I feel like this is going to be a playoff year for us this season.

    I'm gonna have to roll my eyes at the mention of Elway needing or getting fired...
    That is very true, however you can question the current state of it when it is looking like it currently is, especially when 2 third round players only lasted 1 year on the roster. I am actually a big fan of the other guys that are still on the roster from that draft, especially Jake Butt, Chad Kelly, and DeMarcus Walker. I do not like Bolles that much and believe he was the 4th best tackle available when he was selected, but he was still worthy of a 1st round pick so we will see how that turns out. I will say that his rookie year didn't give me much hope for the future. I also strongly agree with Henderson being wrongly cut, he genuinely looked like our best back in limited snaps, Booker should have been the odd man out, he hasn't shown anything worthy of the treatment he has received.

    My comment on who does Elway answer too was more a general inquiry, I am not calling for him too be fired at all but these bad drafts are stacking up, the losing seasons are as well, and the one thing he was good at early on, free agency, he hasn't been hitting in that area either in recent years. I feel like if this season turns into a disaster after he elected to keep the worst coach in the league around after spending money on a quarterback, questions need to be asked, and with Vance Joseph and Joe Woods here, I could see that happening.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    That is very true, however you can question the current state of it when it is looking like it currently is, especially when 2 third round players only lasted 1 year on the roster. I am actually a big fan of the other guys that are still on the roster from that draft, especially Jake Butt, Chad Kelly, and DeMarcus Walker. I do not like Bolles that much and believe he was the 4th best tackle available when he was selected, but he was still worthy of a 1st round pick so we will see how that turns out. I will say that his rookie year didn't give me much hope for the future. I also strongly agree with Henderson being wrongly cut, he genuinely looked like our best back in limited snaps, Booker should have been the odd man out, he hasn't shown anything worthy of the treatment he has received.

    My comment on who does Elway answer too was more a general inquiry, I am not calling for him too be fired at all but these bad drafts are stacking up, the losing seasons are as well, and the one thing he was good at early on, free agency, he hasn't been hitting in that area either in recent years. I feel like if this season turns into a disaster after he elected to keep the worst coach in the league around after spending money on a quarterback, questions need to be asked, and with Vance Joseph and Joe Woods here, I could see that happening.
    2011: 8-8
    2012: 13-3
    2013: 13-3
    2014: 12-4
    2015: 12-4
    2016: 9-7
    2017: 5-11

    So a stack of one losing seasons?

    Last edited by 58Miller; 09-06-2018 at 10:43 PM.
    .....Some fear Terrorist.....I view them as JUSTIFIED TARGETS!!

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by 58Miller View Post
    2011: 8-8
    2012: 13-3
    2013: 13-3
    2014: 12-4
    2015: 12-4
    2016: 9-7
    2017: 5-11

    So a stack of one losing seasons?

    True, my bad, the 2 seasons out of the playoffs I kind of included as losing seasons, I actually forgot we were 9-7 that year with Siemian. But we are coming off a bad 5-11 year, if we were to have another one, especially one that looked like last season, we would be stacking some bad years on top of each other back to back to back. Plus looking beyond the record at the off-season movement by the front office, especially in regards to the draft could be frowned upon going a long way back. The superbowl title obviously buys Elway some exemptions when it comes to the fanatics, but he is very deserving of criticism for a lot of things, and is a huge reason we we sunk to a 5-11 team last season.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    True, my bad, the 2 seasons out of the playoffs I kind of included as losing seasons, I actually forgot we were 9-7 that year with Siemian. But we are coming off a bad 5-11 year, if we were to have another one, especially one that looked like last season, we would be stacking some bad years on top of each other back to back to back. Plus looking beyond the record at the off-season movement by the front office, especially in regards to the draft could be frowned upon going a long way back. The superbowl title obviously buys Elway some exemptions when it comes to the fanatics, but he is very deserving of criticism for a lot of things, and is a huge reason we we sunk to a 5-11 team last season.
    Your absolutely right if we have another season like last year the franchise will be in a state of emergency. The losses were bad but what worries me was the blowouts, we werenít even in games.
    Iím willing to give Elway a bad year but two and Iím with you 👍

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    That is very true, however you can question the current state of it when it is looking like it currently is, especially when 2 third round players only lasted 1 year on the roster..
    I don't even think that's fair.

    The only one still not a part of the team is De'Angelo Henderson. The rest are either on the active roster or practice squad. It isn't uncommon for a player to spend a year on the practice squad before moving up to the active roster. None of those guys are done yet.

    I think the point I've made in this thread is that the notion that Elway is having "bad drafts" is a misconception. He's drafting players that stick around in the NFL. The issue is they aren't sticking around here. In many cases, that's not because they lack the talent to make our roster. Guys like Danny T, Malik, J. Thomas, ect... were all talented players, but moved on to other teams.

    Elway has had a lot of successful draft picks, they just aren't flashy.

    Since Elway's been here every draft he's had a good number of players that contribute to our team. Von Miler, Orlando Franklin, Julius Thomas, Virgil Green, Derek Wolfe, Malik Jackson, Danny Trevathan, Sylvester Williams, Kayvon Webster, Bradley Roby, Matt Paradis, Shane Ray, Jeff Heuerman, Max Garcia, Darius Kilgo, Adam Gotsis, Justin Simmons, Devontae Booker, Connor McGovern, Andy Manovich, Will Parks, Riley Dixon, Garett Bolles, DeMarcus Walker, Bradley Chubb, Courtland Sutton, Royce Freeman, Josey Jewell,

    That's not a short list man...People love to trash Elway's drafts but he's drafted 64 players (not counting all the UDFA talent he's discovered) AT LEAST so far 28 of those have played a part or very likely will play a part on this team. so almost 50% of his picks have turned into contributors. only about 50% of picks made make the NFL, 70% of Elway's picks are still in the league and almost 50% of them stuck around to play a part here.

    Could his drafts be better? Absolutely, but to act like they've just been terrible and to claim he's got a lot of bad drafts is hyperbole.


  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by 58Miller View Post
    Your absolutely right if we have another season like last year the franchise will be in a state of emergency. The losses were bad but what worries me was the blowouts, we weren’t even in games.
    I’m willing to give Elway a bad year but two and I’m with you ��
    Most of that was poor coaching staff. You had Mike McCoy calling unpracticed plays, Woods trying to run the defense in a way that went against their strengths, the most inept special teams coach of all time and VJ who just kept giving McKenzie chance after chance after chance (and McKenzie might yet redeem himself, but letting him keep screwing up and destroy his confidence wasn't the way to fix him)

    My biggest gripe with Elway right now is that he didn't fire VJ. I don't think he could though...We were developing a reputation as being a coach killer (which is absurd because the only coach we've fired is Fox, but perception is perception) and had Elway fired VJ, I don't think he'd have been able to hire a replacement worth a crap. Elway had to give him one more year.

    Right now we're a 12-4 team with a 2-14 coaching staff. If we had a better coach, we could be looking at another deep playoff run. This year, I think we make the playoffs and unfortunately that'll buy VJ one more season.


  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
    Most of that was poor coaching staff. You had Mike McCoy calling unpracticed plays, Woods trying to run the defense in a way that went against their strengths, the most inept special teams coach of all time and VJ who just kept giving McKenzie chance after chance after chance (and McKenzie might yet redeem himself, but letting him keep screwing up and destroy his confidence wasn't the way to fix him)

    My biggest gripe with Elway right now is that he didn't fire VJ. I don't think he could though...We were developing a reputation as being a coach killer (which is absurd because the only coach we've fired is Fox, but perception is perception) and had Elway fired VJ, I don't think he'd have been able to hire a replacement worth a crap. Elway had to give him one more year.

    Right now we're a 12-4 team with a 2-14 coaching staff. If we had a better coach, we could be looking at another deep playoff run. This year, I think we make the playoffs and unfortunately that'll buy VJ one more season.
    Firing VJ I think on the surface seemed like an easy decision. But then when you think who could he have brought in?
    And Elway knows he kinda forced McCoy on Vance. No excuses but their was a lot of change last year from losing Wade and leaders like TJ and Demarcus.
    Iíll give VJ another chance but I gotta admit I donít have a lot of faith. Special Teams seems like it will be 100 times better. VJ and Joe Woods both need to show they belong in this league.

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