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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by 58Miller View Post
    Firing VJ I think on the surface seemed like an easy decision. But then when you think who could he have brought in?
    And Elway knows he kinda forced McCoy on Vance. No excuses but their was a lot of change last year from losing Wade and leaders like TJ and Demarcus.
    I’ll give VJ another chance but I gotta admit I don’t have a lot of faith. Special Teams seems like it will be 100 times better. VJ and Joe Woods both need to show they belong in this league.
    I'm anxious to see how prepared we look this week. That's going to be the kicker for me. This team has the talent to overcome VJ and Woods, but the problem all last year and some of the preseason this year is it looked like we were lost and underprepared which is entirely on the coaching staff and their gameplanning.

    I'm hoping we come out firing on all cylinders Sunday.


  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
    I'm anxious to see how prepared we look this week. That's going to be the kicker for me. This team has the talent to overcome VJ and Woods, but the problem all last year and some of the preseason this year is it looked like we were lost and underprepared which is entirely on the coaching staff and their gameplanning.

    I'm hoping we come out firing on all cylinders Sunday.
    Good point, preparation is all on the coach, we Pete Carroll will have his guys ready.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by 58Miller View Post
    Good point, preparation is all on the coach, we Pete Carroll will have his guys ready.
    It may seem far-fetched but this is the exact reason why I predict that if the Broncos come out slow or struggling to great extent then VJ will be gone by week 6 or 7 and Gary Kubiak will be the interim coach. I know a lot of people will disagree but thatís just how I feel.

    We have as much talent on this team as anybody and every bit of a chance to but it wonít go very far if the coach canít pull his head out and have them prepared week in and week out!

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    It may seem far-fetched but this is the exact reason why I predict that if the Broncos come out slow or struggling to great extent then VJ will be gone by week 6 or 7 and Gary Kubiak will be the interim coach. I know a lot of people will disagree but thatís just how I feel.

    We have as much talent on this team as anybody and every bit of a chance to but it wonít go very far if the coach canít pull his head out and have them prepared week in and week out!
    HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! i haven't even said that about the chargers and the broncos do not have the talent the chargers do overall.

    you guys have talent yes but as much as anyone in the league??


  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by baphamet View Post
    HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! i haven't even said that about the chargers and the broncos do not have the talent the chargers do overall.

    you guys have talent yes but as much as anyone in the league??

    Ok Iíll have to screenshot this one for future reference, god knows youíll try to deny it but anyway ok Lloyd will see.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by baphamet View Post
    HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! i haven't even said that about the chargers and the broncos do not have the talent the chargers do overall.

    you guys have talent yes but as much as anyone in the league??

    It's not a wrong statement.

    We've got one of the deepest WR cores in the league, our defense is talented across the board. We got a big upgrade at QB who will likely play at a top 10 level this year and it looks as though between Royce Freeman and Phillip Lindsay we may have a strong backfield as well.

    Yes, we're as talented as the Chargers or any other team in the league.

    Talent isn't what is going to hold us back if we get held back this year, inept coaching is.


  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
    It's not a wrong statement.

    We've got one of the deepest WR cores in the league, our defense is talented across the board. We got a big upgrade at QB who will likely play at a top 10 level this year and it looks as though between Royce Freeman and Phillip Lindsay we may have a strong backfield as well.

    Yes, we're as talented as the Chargers or any other team in the league.

    Talent isn't what is going to hold us back if we get held back this year, inept coaching is.
    you don't even have the deepest WR core in the division

    your sold that keenum will be a top 10 QB when your teams offensive line will lilkely be among the worst at pass protection again?

    you are also banking on freeman being dominant, which he could but it's still an unknown.

    if keenum gets eaten alive and struggles behind that bad pass protection, that won't be all coaching because you have had that problem since before VJ was hired. it's a personnel problem and other than drafting bolles elway has done nothing in the past few years but bring in depth quality players.

    defensivly the broncos are still pretty talented but that secondary may not be as strong now, we will see. the broncos are pretty talented but they don't have the most talent in the league

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by baphamet View Post
    you don't even have the deepest WR core in the division


    I'd take DT/Sanders/Sutton over your group any day of the week man.

    DT and Sanders are both capable of putting up numbers like Allen is, Sutton could also have a big year...Allen is talented no doubt, but in no way would I say that Williams is better than Sanders, sorry...

    Thanks for the deep belly laugh though, that's rich man.


    As for the rest of it, our pass pro will be fine this year. It's already greatly improved and Keenum does not take sacks, yes I'm comfortable with this o-line.

    Freeman is a question mark, but one I'm banking on.


  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
    I don't even think that's fair.
    I disagree, and disagree strongly. This is a subjective argument but I do not believe that it is a "misconception" or "hyperbole" to say that John Elway has some bad draft picks, or to even say he is just straight up bad at drafting and evaluating college talent, the evidence is there for everyone to see and most can see it.

    I do agree to a certain extent that Elway has a problem in retaining talent, and my biggest gripe with him outside of poor drafting is that he has waited to long to try and extend players who are clearly talented. I also think he has made re-signing the wrong guys a priority at times. But if we are looking at picks Elway has made in the 2nd round - 4th round area, the areas where you build the foundation of your roster, Elway has been bad. The argument that guys drafted here go on to have good careers elsewhere is also just wrong, I guess depending on your definition of good.

    This is the list of guys Elway has drafted in rounds 2-4 who have moved on to other football teams or exited the league. Rahim Moore, Orlando Franklin, Nate Irving, Quinton Carter, Julius Thomas, Brock Osweiler, Ronnie Hillman, Omar Bolden, Phillip Blake, Montee Ball, Kayvon Webster, Cody Laitmer, Michael Schofield, and Ty Sambrailo.

    The only guy on that list, the only guy Elway drafted in rounds 2-4 that has gone on to do anything in the NFL, either becoming an impact player or remaining an impact player is Julius Thomas. He put up around 1100 yards and 12 touchdowns in 3 seasons since leaving Denver, which despite not being great, was much more production Elway has gotten from any tight end in Denver since, Julius Thomas was one of Elways great finds no doubt. But beyond that no one else from these critical rounds has gone on to do anything but fill a bottom end roster spot.

    That brings me to guys Elway has actually hit on in the middle rounds, rounds 2 - 4. This list is very short and beyond mentioning Julius Thomas earlier this list features only Derek Wolfe, Adam Gotsis, and Justin Simmons in my opinion. Derek Wolfe is the main guy you point to and say Elway can hang his hat on that draft pick, that was a great one which no one around here liked at the time, but it aged well. Gotsis and Simmons both also look like good draft picks and although they haven't done much yet, they have shown they can play a little bit and I expect big things from both of them, and they have some NFL tape to back that up.

    When we look beyond these rounds which I believe are the most important which Elway has shown he struggles to find talented players in, and impact players in, the 1st round picks are even uglier in my opinion. General Managers are often mostly judged by their first selections in the draft and Elways lineup of 1st rounders is not great at all. You have picks which include; Von Miller, Sylvester Williams, Bradley Roby, Paxton Lynch, Shane Ray, Garett Bolles, and Bradley Chubb. Von Miller obviously is the stand out, but until this year with Chubb who I think will be great, you have average football players. The list includes 2 guys out of the league, a guy you didn't even want to give the 5th year option too, and a tackle who cries and acts like he has snapped his spine every time he gets a little banged up. We will see how Roby handles the pressure of being a number 1, he has struggled in that role in the past so we will see if he proves his worth as a 1st round pick and a high paid cornerback which he now is, but beyond the top 5 picks which shouldn't be too hard to find talented players at, Roby is the only good choice Elway has made in the 1st round.

    Now looking at the rest, the late round picks and undrafted free agents, this is where Elway deserves the most credit when it comes to the draft. He has found some great players in this range, guys who have become staples of our team and guys who have been actually impact players. Malik Jackson, Danny Trevathan, Chris Harris, Brandon Marshall, Matt Paradis, and CJ Anderson. I would say to find an average of 1 guy a year in rounds 5-7 / UDFA is a good hit rate, and I think DeAngelo Henderson could of made this list, and might be another guy drafted in this range who moves on to do good things. But I will give Elway massive credit for some of his finds in this area.

    But, no matter which way you slice it, twist it, statistically manipulate it, I and many others, especially people outside of Denver see Elways drafts as being consistently bad. Just because I guy played doesn't mean it was a good pick, it means you played a bad player because you couldn't find anyone else talented to take the field and he was your best option. There has been a serious lack of immediate impact from majority of John Elway drafted players in those ever so important 2nd - 4th rounds, there is no denying that. When it comes to Elway and drafting he can hang his hat on some really nice late round finds but it's just too bad he couldn't keep them around long-term, because they are probably the best players he has brought in through the college system.

    Also I am not including this most recent draft in anything I am saying. I am a big fan of this most recent draft and think it is the first time since 2011 we will see some immediate impact from multiple players. I also believe long-term this draft class will look really good, however it is way to premature to be using the names of guys who are yet to play a down in the NFL to make an argument one way or the other. Especially after stating it's too early to write the 2017 draft down as bad, horrible, or indifferent, which you said was the point of this thread, you can't take it both ways with different points you are trying to make.

    Onto your other post, I couldn't agree more Frey, this coaching staff was a shambles last season and I can't believe that Woods and Joseph were kept around. I could go in depth about how the Washington game was the breaking point for me, but I won't. People wanted to give Joseph another year based off of zero substance, and just because he was in year 1. The guy showed no improvement in any way shape or form yet was allowed to remain as the head coach. I see it as Elway endorsing mediocrity and I believe it will prove to be a bad move with him being fired at some point this season. And speaking of John Fox, how can you let him go after 4 straight division titles and a playoff run in 2014, yet keep Joseph around after the worse season since McDaniels, makes no sense to me.

    Also John Fox wasn't technically fired, he just wasn't re-signed, so that would play even more against the narrative that Elway is a coach killer. However this notion of gaining a reputation of becoming a coach killing team is something which has proven to be a myth time and time again. If you are an NFL team that approaches the hot coordinator with a head coaching job offer, and you are offering them a severe raise in salary and job title, they will take it. People who worry about this being an issue if Vance Joseph was fired after a year don't understand the NFL landscape. What is more important to luring a coach, if he has options of teams to go to, it will be the playing roster which makes up his mind, particularly quarterback stability.

    I don't rate our roster as a 12-4 roster, we are weak up the middle of the defense and our cornerback depth is going to hurt us all year long. Our offensive line is also still mediocre which is going to make life tough for an already average quarterback, our running back group is unproven too but I do like them a lot. Yes our coaching staff is bad but we won 5 games last season and saying they are a 12 win roster is a stretch, I don't think our coaching cost us 7 games last year, maybe 3-4. I think we are a 9-7 roster right now but I think this coaching staff again limits our ceiling to 6-7 wins maximum. I do like Bill Musgrave though and everything I know about his past in the NFL, I think if our offensive line can be just decent, he will coordinator a solid offense.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by baphamet View Post
    you don't even have the deepest WR core in the division

    your sold that keenum will be a top 10 QB when your teams offensive line will lilkely be among the worst at pass protection again?

    you are also banking on freeman being dominant, which he could but it's still an unknown.

    if keenum gets eaten alive and struggles behind that bad pass protection, that won't be all coaching because you have had that problem since before VJ was hired. it's a personnel problem and other than drafting bolles elway has done nothing in the past few years but bring in depth quality players.

    defensivly the broncos are still pretty talented but that secondary may not be as strong now, we will see. the broncos are pretty talented but they don't have the most talent in the league
    So you donít think Connor McGovern played all that well during the preseason? You donít believe he just might be growing in to an NFL player finally after two NFL season for?

    Max Garcia has looked a lot better as well this season. Iím not saying heís going to be great but he looks out of a lot better than he did last year. Jared Veldheer and Billy Turner have both been solid at the right tackle position as well so where are you seeing flaws it weaknesses? Perhaps Rob Leary and Matt Paradis are the weak links in your head but again Iíd say man you donít know anything but spewing ignorant garbage!

    You also say that our secondary isnít as talented huh?
    Man you donít know half as much as you think because the Last time I checked the only players missing from that secondary that formed but no fly zone was an over the hill TJ Ward and a troublesome Aqib Talib.

    For the 3rd time, You must not know anything and evidently you donít know anything about Tremaine Brock nor do you have a clue about Adam Pac-Man Jones who is still IMO a top 10 corner in this league but go ahead and laugh all you want lloyd but weíll whos laugh Sunday night when youíre team gets smashed at home by Pat Mahomes the Kansas City Chiefs.
    Last edited by Sam_Z; 09-07-2018 at 05:03 PM.

  11. #71
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    This fan base is very hopeful when it comes to the offensive line this season, again. But I see it playing out the same way it has in the past few seasons. John Elway has once again slapped band-aids in places he shouldn't have and ignored addressing the offensive line early in the draft. In 2016 it was Donald Stephenson and Russell Okung. Both players were overpaid, everyone thought they would be upgrades, they were horrible and hurt us more often than they helped. In 2017 it was Menelik Watson and Ronald Leary. Both players were once again overpaid, Watson was horrible, and Leary was solid but didn't earn his pay check in my opinion. In 2018 it is Jared Veldheer and Connor McGovern. Veldheer is old, coming off injury and a horrible season, just like Watson was. Then you have McGovern who looks decent but surely people cannot be banking on him being anything more than that at this point ? It's the same old story, with the same fan base again taking the same old bait, we will see I guess but I don't like the looks of it.

    And as nice as it was committing to the offensive line in 2017 with Bolles, I think he was the wrong player to pick, and early on it does look that way, but it was nice to see that investment in an important area of the football team. But beyond that Elway just seems to be getting by on the hope one of these late round guys pans out, and his free agent signings who no one else wants stick, but it isn't working. The mention of Max Garcia looking better is intriguing because it is true, he has looked better. However, the guy has years of bad to horrible tape and relying on him to be anything more than mediocre is like hoping Isiah McKenzie can hold onto the football, it's all built on faith which when it comes to football means nothing.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    This fan base is very hopeful when it comes to the offensive line this season, again. But I see it playing out the same way it has in the past few seasons. John Elway has once again slapped band-aids in places he shouldn't have and ignored addressing the offensive line early in the draft. In 2016 it was Donald Stephenson and Russell Okung. Both players were overpaid, everyone thought they would be upgrades, they were horrible and hurt us more often than they helped. In 2017 it was Menelik Watson and Ronald Leary. Both players were once again overpaid, Watson was horrible, and Leary was solid but didn't earn his pay check in my opinion. In 2018 it is Jared Veldheer and Connor McGovern. Veldheer is old, coming off injury and a horrible season, just like Watson was. Then you have McGovern who looks decent but surely people cannot be banking on him being anything more than that at this point ? It's the same old story, with the same fan base again taking the same old bait, we will see I guess but I don't like the looks of it.

    And as nice as it was committing to the offensive line in 2017 with Bolles, I think he was the wrong player to pick, and early on it does look that way, but it was nice to see that investment in an important area of the football team. But beyond that Elway just seems to be getting by on the hope one of these late round guys pans out, and his free agent signings who no one else wants stick, but it isn't working. The mention of Max Garcia looking better is intriguing because it is true, he has looked better. However, the guy has years of bad to horrible tape and relying on him to be anything more than mediocre is like hoping Isiah McKenzie can hold onto the football, it's all built on faith which when it comes to football means nothing.
    1. I would argue every fan base is hopeful week 1

    2. Elway added Veldheer who has played well when healthy. I agree he could be another Watson or Stephenson, but he has been dominant at LT in his past and his experience will benefit this line a lot more than the last two FAís. * Veldheer didn't allow a single pressure in the preseason.

    3. Leary at LG is an upgrade over Garcia, this will also benefit Bolles who was actually good in the run game last year as a rookie.

    4. McGovern will get his shot at RG, Garcia coming off the bench as a Guard is an upgrade for our oline from last year.

    5. To not give any blame of our oline play to our quarterbacks is irresponsible, I believe Keenum will prevent 10 sacks on his own due to his experience.

    6. Elway drafted 3 of our starting linemen, brought in one as a free agent,, and made a trade for our right tackle. Elway has brought in bandaids instead of overpaying in free agency for a Ricky Wagner $12 mil or $16 mil for Solder.

    7. Why no mention that :
    A. our wide receivers are better than ever with Emmanuel/ DT/ Sutton / Hamilton/ Patrick
    B. We have youth in the back field in Royce Freeman and Lindsay who looks like a Swiss Army knife.
    C. For the first time Tight ends Jeff Heaurman & Jale Butt are healthy
    D. Justin Simmons/ Darren Stewart / CHJ/ Roby/ Parks/ Brock/ Pac-Man is not a bad secondary. Talib will be missed but watch the Philly game where Alshon Jeffrey made him look silly or the KC game at the end of the year when you can see he had no interest in trying to tackle Kareem Hunt on a 35 yard TD. Guy was great when we were dominant, not so much when we werenít.

    8. Joseph Jewell will contribute this year and probably start sooner than later.

    9. Our DLine is the deepest position not this team. Wolfe/ Peko/ Gotsi is solid, but Kerr/ Harris/ Walker is not a big step down off the bench.

    10. Our special teams lost us at least a game or two last year. This season it will be much improved. McManus is back, King will pin offenses back inside the 20. Punt returner Pac - Man will catch it period.

    11. Kubiak ( this is hope) will be a mentor for VJ and help Musgrave game plan.

    12. Last but not least OLB is scary Von, and Chubb but not to be overlooked an angry Shane Ray and Shaq Barrett both in contract years.

    All this is why Iím am hopeful going into week one. If VJ improves along with the line the Broncos are a 10+ win team.
    Last edited by 58Miller; 09-07-2018 at 07:18 PM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by 58Miller View Post
    1. I would argue every fan base is hopeful week 1

    2. Elway added Veldheer who has played well when healthy. I agree he could be another Watson or Stephenson, but he has been dominant at LT in his past and his experience will benefit this line a lot more than the last two FA’s. * Veldheer didn't allow a single pressure in the preseason.

    3. Leary at LG is an upgrade over Garcia, this will also benefit Bolles who was actually good in the run game last year as a rookie.

    4. McGovern will get his shot at RG, Garcia coming off the bench as a Guard is an upgrade for our oline from last year.

    5. To not give any blame of our oline play to our quarterbacks is irresponsible, I believe Keenum will prevent 10 sacks on his own due to his experience.

    6. Elway drafted 3 of our starting linemen, brought in one as a free agent,, and made a trade for our right tackle. Elway has brought in bandaids instead of overpaying in free agency for a Ricky Wagner $12 mil or $16 mil for Solder.

    7. Why no mention that :
    A. our wide receivers are better than ever with Emmanuel/ DT/ Sutton / Hamilton/ Patrick
    B. We have youth in the back field in Royce Freeman and Lindsay who looks like a Swiss Army knife.
    C. For the first time Tight ends Jeff Heaurman & Jale Butt are healthy
    D. Justin Simmons/ Darren Stewart / CHJ/ Roby/ Parks/ Brock/ Pac-Man is not a bad secondary. Talib will be missed but watch the Philly game where Alshon Jeffrey made him look silly or the KC game at the end of the year when you can see he had no interest in trying to tackle Kareem Hunt on a 35 yard TD. Guy was great when we were dominant, not so much when we weren’t.

    8. Joseph Jewell will contribute this year and probably start sooner than later.

    9. Our DLine is the deepest position not this team. Wolfe/ Peko/ Gotsi is solid, but Kerr/ Harris/ Walker is not a big step down off the bench.

    10. Our special teams lost us at least a game or two last year. This season it will be much improved. McManus is back, King will pin offenses back inside the 20. Punt returner Pac - Man will catch it period.

    11. Kubiak ( this is hope) will be a mentor for VJ and help Musgrave game plan.

    12. Last but not least OLB is scary Von, and Chubb but not to be overlooked an angry Shane Ray and Shaq Barrett both in contract years.

    All this is why I’m am hopeful going into week one. If VJ improves along with the line the Broncos are a 10+ win team.
    Of course every fan base is hopeful, but that doesn't mean the things that are being said are true, accurate, or realistic. When it comes to Veldheer, he hasn't been good for a while now, and although I am also hopeful, I am not confident at all in him being our solution at right tackle beyond this season. I do think he will be better than Watson though, that was a horrible move I could foresee panning out exactly as it did.

    I agree that having a healthy Ronald Leary with Garett Bolles on the left side will be an upgrade as you say. But having Garcia on the field in any capacity is going to be more of what we have seen in the past. The guy has put up years of horrible tape now and yeah, it's an upgrade having him on the bench I guess, but if in any case he sees the field, we are back to where we were by having a terrible offensive lineman on the field.

    I also agree that having Keenum will help to a certain degree. Trevor Siemian last year really didn't help the offensive line with his unwillingness to climb the pocket to try and avoid pressure. In saying that though, it's hard to be willing to do that when Max Garcia and Matt Paradis are constantly giving up quick pressures up the middle. Matt Paradis is very overrated and against big nose tackles and odd fronts, the guy gets no push at all and gets pushed back in the quarterbacks face constantly.

    Just because Elway drafted the guys and signed the guys we currently have doesn't mean he has been committed to building the group, or done it in the right way. That is like Frey's argument stating that because guys have played means the drafts have been good, no, it just means they were the best options you had and they weren't very good options at that. And I would rather be overpaying for someone like Wagner or Solder than giving the money we currently are to guys like Veldheer, Marshall, Davis, Brock, Watson, etc. We are overpaying a lot of mediocre players, I would rather be giving that money to one great player instead.

    Every point you mention in 7 is true, and I can see the optimism in all of those points, some of those points bring me optimism too. I have huge hopes for this receiving core, backfield, tight-end group, but my point here was about how fans are once again taking the bait on the same poorly constructed offensive line that we have seen now for a 3rd straight season, and I refuse to be hopeful or take the bait like most have done, again.

    I also see a lot of these points being based on nothing other than fandom and hope. Josey Jewell, Jake Butt, Jeff Huerman, Royce Freeman, Cortland Sutton, DeSean Hamilton, Walker, and Harris are all really unproven. This isn't to say that they wont be good players, but using them as reasons we are potentially a 10 plus win team is a stretch in my opinion and something only fans of this team will see. I also don't know if I want Kubiak helping Vance out with game planning, is he even good at it ? He is an offensive guy who won a superbowl with one of the worse offenses to ever do it, he rode the defense to that championship like everyone on offense did, I don't see this helping.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post

    I also don't know if I want Kubiak helping Vance out with game planning, is he even good at it ? He is an offensive guy who won a superbowl with one of the worse offenses to ever do it, he rode the defense to that championship like everyone on offense did, I don't see this helping.
    I think the offense last year shows that Kubiak got a lot out of our bad offense.

    Kubiak coached a team to a Super Bowl victory and has 2 more rings as a coordinator and one as a QBs coach, I would say that is a good guy to have around the team and our young coach.

    Itís clear youíve already given up on this season, and thatís your opinion. I believe players can get better and I donít believe giving a guy like Solder ( played with Brady who makes a lot of guys look good) who has never been to a pro bowl deserves to be the NFLís highest paid player ($16 million a year?)

    If you mean this as smack ( this is the smack section) then post the readers digest version in the future and just say our team is a dumpster fire and will be 4-12 etc. If your just a concerned fan than respect and I would recommend moving your posts to the Broncos Football section.

    That said thanks for sharing your takes on the team, if your right then hopefully our team will get a complete overhaul. No offense, but I hope your wrong on pretty much every thing 😏

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    Quote Originally Posted by 58Miller View Post
    I think the offense last year shows that Kubiak got a lot out of our bad offense.

    Kubiak coached a team to a Super Bowl victory and has 2 more rings as a coordinator and one as a QBs coach, I would say that is a good guy to have around the team and our young coach.

    It’s clear you’ve already given up on this season, and that’s your opinion. I believe players can get better and I don’t believe giving a guy like Solder ( played with Brady who makes a lot of guys look good) who has never been to a pro bowl deserves to be the NFL’s highest paid player ($16 million a year?)

    If you mean this as smack ( this is the smack section) then post the readers digest version in the future and just say our team is a dumpster fire and will be 4-12 etc. If your just a concerned fan than respect and I would recommend moving your posts to the Broncos Football section.

    That said thanks for sharing your takes on the team, if your right then hopefully our team will get a complete overhaul. No offense, but I hope your wrong on pretty much every thing ��
    Debatable I would say. Kubiak in that superbowl run deserves credit for the way he handled the quarterback situation, a young coach couldn't of handled that like Kubiak did, but beyond that his time in Denver in terms of offensive football wasn't exactly a highlight. The run game was mediocre in those 2 years and everything we were told would improve with him coming in didn't. His style of football and game planning appeared quite dated in my opinion. I think Kubiaks real value may be in the front office, at least based on how much better this 2018 draft looks than anything Elway cooked up without Kubiak. We don't know who has input in what I guess but with Kubiak in the front office, the draft class produced was much improved.

    I have not given up on the season at all, I just see myself as a realistic fan, and it is hard for me to be optimistic when Vance Joseph is the leader of this football team. I genuinely think we can be an 8-8 football team, I was just more making specific points about things like the offensive line and how I think our fans are overrating our unproven talent right now, and really overrating some of the veteran guys we have. I do agree Solder isn't worth 16 million per season, but my way of looking at it is Menelik Watson is making 7.2 million, and Brandon Marshall is making 7 million. Would you rather have those 2 players or a Nate Solder ? I know my answer and it again speaks to the poor moves Elway has made in free agency and in retaining talent lately.

    I'm not talking smack, just looked like their was some decent conversation going on in here so thought I would join in Also I hope I am wrong as well, but I will say I am pretty pessimistic and it all pretty much starts with my dislike for Vance Joseph and Joe Woods. I have never been this down on this team and so unexcited for a season of football to start in my life, but I am sure once it starts my excitement for Broncos football will take over, I am hoping anyway.

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