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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humberg View Post
    Ok, so I stand corrected. But at the end of the day, we are still talking about Mike Munchak here. Where is Mike McCarthy? Where is Bruce Ariens? Where are some of the hot talents from college? We got nothing. It's a bad job, people know it. Elway is micromanaging. This is going to be some weird hybrid coaching regime via Fangio/Munchak, Kubiak, and Elway. It's bad.

    And how do you know it's bad? Elway said we need to evolve our offense to include some of the latest college concepts. Who are we hiring? Munchak/Kubes, or Fangio/Kubes. Yeah, that's evolving. Not because we didn't want to, but because we couldn't. We COULDN'T, We couldn't find someone to come here that was qualified to do this. Either Elway, or Ellis had a beef with them (Gase, McD), or the situation just couldn't attract them (college ranks, Harbaugh, Shaw etc). Even among the old guard, we couldn't attract or make a good hire work (McCarthy, Ariens, Toub). And don't get me wrong, I'm not upset because Munchak or Fangio would be bad HC's elsewhere, because I have no reason to believe that. I'm upset because I don't think ANYONE could come in here and do a good job with the way the situation has been set up. You hire someone and stack the room with guys that aren't his. How does that make sense?

    Please, someone argue that this is being managed well. Point to a situation where the GM/Owner has meddled this much and it payed off. I don't think you can, but I would love to be proven wrong. My Broncos are swirling, this makes me ill. I'm going to go have a taco.

    This is sick, and I don't mean the good kind either.
    I heard Denverís current regime often compared to the one in Dallas! Jerry Grossly alienates Jason Garrett and the staff there.
    Iím just surprised Garrett is still coaching there. Not saying that Elway does that in Denver but from what Iíve heard itís not far off.

  2. #17
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    I think the current state of ownership (Ellis and trust nonsense) and Elwayís contract expiring in 3 years gives candidates more pause than fact Elway is asking potential hires to work with SB winning Gary Kubiak.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by fraguela09 View Post
    I think the current state of ownership (Ellis and trust nonsense) and Elwayís contract expiring in 3 years gives candidates more pause than fact Elway is asking potential hires to work with SB winning Gary Kubiak.
    Beth and her uncle really donít have a case, I donít believe they have the leeway to force the leagues hand in making a decision over the trust. Last I heard, Eliss planned to remain as the trust for another 8 years or atleast until Brittany is ready to take over.

    Elway wil most likely retire in 3 years after his contract is up. That could be a concern for a new coach but no more than a coach having the authority to bring in his own staff which would not be an insult to Gary in any way. Iím sure Gary would sympathize with whatever reason a new coach would have!

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    Beth and her uncle really donít have a case, I donít believe they have the leeway to force the leagues hand in making a decision over the trust. Last I heard, Eliss planned to remain as the trust for another 8 years or atleast until Brittany is ready to take over.

    Elway wil most likely retire in 3 years after his contract is up. That could be a concern for a new coach but no more than a coach having the authority to bring in his own staff which would not be an insult to Gary in any way. Iím sure Gary would sympathize with whatever reason a new coach would have!
    Knowing that the guy who is hiring you (Elway) is most likely gone in 3 years... and the team is the only one in NFL owned by a trust... that gives candidates pause. How could it not? How secure are you? Takes you at least 2 years to build something, then your support system leaves... and a new GM always wants his guy coaching.

    This is the big issue...

    The Kubiak thing? Thatís a mini-hurdle to overcome... if you get past the Elway contract and trust fiasco... thatís just dotting Is and crossing Ts.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humberg View Post
    On the eve of what will, mark my words, go down as another poor decision in a long line of them, I am reflecting on the state of the organization. A lot has been written about ownership, Elway's decisions as GM, the rotating coaching door, lack of a QB etc. But my beef tonight is how they are going about this new coaching hire. And I'm talking about the process here instead of the actual people (because it won't matter). This situation that they've created to hire the next head coach is just downright screwy. It's bonkers. It's madhouse.

    We are retaining coaches on the current coaching staff before we even have a HC in place? Kubiak has been promised a position on the offensive side coaching, perhaps even offensive coordinator? What gives?

    It seems like the talk around the media and their sources around the league is that this is insane. You hire a coach but don't even let him choose his right hand men and coaches/coordinators? Do you want to hamstring them and let them start with one hand tied behind their back from the get-go?

    From what I've heard, and admittedly I'm no expert, you have to have extreme solidarity and trust at the coaching level across the coordinators, position coaches and the head coach. You can't have guys that are Fangio/Munchak guys and guys that are Elway guys. You can't have the head coach looking over their shoulder every time they say something at a players meeting wondering if Elway's guys are going to tell the boss.

    The whole thing just smacks of fail. We certainly saw elements of this throughout the past 2 years when Vance was handed his coaching staff and that didn't work. I think there are plenty of examples around the league of owners or GMs that fail to stay in the box and instead want to be a part time head coach. It doesn't work. That's the stuff of the Raiders, that's very Al Davis (although a very respectful RIP is placed here).

    This Kubiak situation is wonkers. We block him from going anywhere, but he doesn't want the HC position, so what promise him OC? Just either stay in the front office, or be the head coach, but don't straddle the fence and undercut the new guy. Yeah, that's awesome.

    If we have a lot of our positional coaches staying in place, and potentially have someone slotted in as offensive coordinator (who you could argue is the most important coach on the team second to the head coach), then it's no wonder we aren't getting the better coaching candidates coming here to interview. Who would want to come here without even close to the usual authority afforded a head coach? Neither Fangio nor Munchak have any other HC options, and other big name coaches didn't even consider us. That's where we are. Now, both might be great as coordinators, but we are the ONLY team that is considering making them a HC. We are the ONLY team that considered Taylor as a HC. Am I missing something? Why does our list seem to be different than everybody else's? Could it be that this is a terrible situation for any head coach to come into?

    Back when Elway came to this team it was a similar situation, they hired Fox as one of the only reputable coaches that would come here (and didn't have any other options) because the organization was in the pooper. We praised Elway for salvaging a sinking ship. Now, this mess is all John Elway's. And there is no adult in the organization to slap his hand.

    Elway, Ellis and whatever Bowlen happens to be in the house needs to wake up and tell the GM of this organization to, in the words of Brandon Stokely, "make the hire John and get out of the way."

    If he doesn't, and it doesn't look like he will, I give this next head coaching regime 2 years, 3 years tops before we are doing this all over again. The reason? Fail before it even begins.
    Go figure.

    What you want is exactly what happened when we started looking for a head coach after winning the super bowl. Guess what, Elway was vilified every day for weeks....often, still is....for not making sure some of the coaches (Wade) are retained and handed to the next coach as part of his staff.

    Now, it seems Elway isnt going to make the same mistake, and here it is....he is utterly demonized for it.

    Seems to me, it doesnt matter what he does. He is going to be hated for it anyway.

  6. #21
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    Please, someone argue that this is being managed well. Point to a situation where the GM/Owner has meddled this much and it payed off. I don't think you can, but I would love to be proven wrong. My Broncos are swirling, this makes me ill. I'm going to go have a taco.

    This is sick, and I don't mean the good kind either.
    How many people thought Doug Pederson would lead Philly to a Super Bowl? Or that Anthony Lynn would take the Chargers to 12-4? Or that Tom Coughlin would win two SBs against Belichick and outperform Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcells, and Andy Reid while in the same division?

    Here's a hint: Nobody. Slow and steady wins a lot of races.

    You have no idea how Munchak or Fangio will do. So lighten up and stop preaching the same hellfire and damnation sermon over and over again.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Rod- View Post
    Elway is a major reason why the team won a 3rd Super Bowl, and the main responsible for 3 consecutive seasons without playoffs and the first back-to-back losing seasons since 1972. Overall, he missed on 5 consecutive draft classes. He hired Vance Joseph, did not renew Wade Phillips [who also was one of the major reasons why this team added the 3rd Lombardi] contract to promote "rising star" Joe Woods. The luster is starting to fade. It will be harder to cling to the 2015-2016 SB run to defend Elway if the team remains at the bottom by 2020.
    Wade does deserve credit for maximizing the talent Elway provided him with, no doubt. However, Wade hasn't actually done a great job with the Rams. In 2017 they were ranked 19th overall, 12 in points per game. In 2018 they were ranked 19th overall, 20th in points per game. Meanwhile, in 2017 Denver was ranked 3rd overall, but 22nd in points per game. In 2018 Denver was ranked 22nd overall, but 13th in points per game.

    It's also inaccurate to say he missed on 5 straight drafts. 2016 was actually a good draft. 2014 produced two key players in Roby and Paradis.

    You say the luster is starting to fade from SB 50. Well, consider this. After joining the NFL in 1970, it took the Broncos 27 years to win its first SB, 37 if you count the AFL years. After winning its second a year later, it took another 17 years to win a 3rd.
    Last edited by gerontion; 01-08-2019 at 11:27 PM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MH Stampede View Post
    Go figure.

    What you want is exactly what happened when we started looking for a head coach after winning the super bowl. Guess what, Elway was vilified every day for weeks....often, still is....for not making sure some of the coaches (Wade) are retained and handed to the next coach as part of his staff.

    Now, it seems Elway isnt going to make the same mistake, and here it is....he is utterly demonized for it.

    Seems to me, it doesnt matter what he does. He is going to be hated for it anyway.
    All of those options I mentioned are eminently more qualified than Vance Joseph was. It's not even close. Elway was hated because he hired someone who didn't know football, and was a bad head coach. That criticism is well deserved.

    I'm now criticising him for making this an undesirable job with the situation he is orchestrating. How is that two different sides of the same coin?

    No, it's not a losing scenario for Elway no matter what, there is an acceptable path here. It's giving the head coach the usual amount of authority granted a head coach and letting him do his thing. It's doing things like this to make it a desirable situation for someone to come into so that we can get a good coach. It's not adding staff and then adding the head coach last. It's not promising your friend that they can be offensive coordinator and saddling the head coach with this. It's being a good GM, not being a coach, and not being a bad boss to work for.

    It's ridiculous that these items would have to be asked for since they are self evident to nearly every other team, but here we are.
    We got Chubb! We got Royce! We got Sutton! We got Hamilton! We got Josey! We got Lindsey! We got.....oh wait, we still don't have a QB? Shoot.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    I agree he’s was good for the defense throughout his first few years as a GM
    In his first 3 years on the job, the Broncos had a top 5 defense one time, in 2012. In Elway's last 5 years the Broncos defense has been top 5 except for one year, 2018.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny_Quest View Post
    How many people thought Doug Pederson would lead Philly to a Super Bowl? Or that Anthony Lynn would take the Chargers to 12-4? Or that Tom Coughlin would win two SBs against Belichick and outperform Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcells, and Andy Reid while in the same division?

    Here's a hint: Nobody. Slow and steady wins a lot of races.

    You have no idea how Munchak or Fangio will do. So lighten up and stop preaching the same hellfire and damnation sermon over and over again.
    You seem to think I'm criticising the candidates and I'm not. I'm very much criticising this wacky micromanaging that Elway is doing during the hiring process. He's overstepping and its weird. People know it's weird. Yeah I think they both might be alright. But not in Denver with this situation.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humberg View Post
    Ok, so I stand corrected. But at the end of the day, we are still talking about Mike Munchak here. Where is Mike McCarthy? Where is Bruce Ariens? Where are some of the hot talents from college? We got nothing. It's a bad job, people know it.
    McCarthy wants to coach the Jets, but people are saying he stopped grinding and GMs are not crazy about hiring him.

    http://forums.denverbroncos.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=349348&dateline=13355  71607

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerontion View Post
    In his first 3 years on the job, the Broncos had a top 5 defense one time, in 2012. In Elway's last 5 years the Broncos defense has been top 5 except for one year, 2018.
    Iím talking about drafting defense, aside from Parks, Gotsis and Chubb there arenít too many names that stand out.

    Back then we had Miller, Wolfe, Harris, Trevathan, Jackson, and Barrett! Williams was somewhat solid as well.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humberg View Post
    On the eve of what will, mark my words, go down as another poor decision in a long line of them, I am reflecting on the state of the organization. A lot has been written about ownership, Elway's decisions as GM, the rotating coaching door, lack of a QB etc. But my beef tonight is how they are going about this new coaching hire. And I'm talking about the process here instead of the actual people (because it won't matter). This situation that they've created to hire the next head coach is just downright screwy. It's bonkers. It's madhouse.

    We are retaining coaches on the current coaching staff before we even have a HC in place? Kubiak has been promised a position on the offensive side coaching, perhaps even offensive coordinator? What gives?

    It seems like the talk around the media and their sources around the league is that this is insane. You hire a coach but don't even let him choose his right hand men and coaches/coordinators? Do you want to hamstring them and let them start with one hand tied behind their back from the get-go?

    From what I've heard, and admittedly I'm no expert, you have to have extreme solidarity and trust at the coaching level across the coordinators, position coaches and the head coach. You can't have guys that are Fangio/Munchak guys and guys that are Elway guys. You can't have the head coach looking over their shoulder every time they say something at a players meeting wondering if Elway's guys are going to tell the boss.

    The whole thing just smacks of fail. We certainly saw elements of this throughout the past 2 years when Vance was handed his coaching staff and that didn't work. I think there are plenty of examples around the league of owners or GMs that fail to stay in the box and instead want to be a part time head coach. It doesn't work. That's the stuff of the Raiders, that's very Al Davis (although a very respectful RIP is placed here).

    This Kubiak situation is wonkers. We block him from going anywhere, but he doesn't want the HC position, so what promise him OC? Just either stay in the front office, or be the head coach, but don't straddle the fence and undercut the new guy. Yeah, that's awesome.

    If we have a lot of our positional coaches staying in place, and potentially have someone slotted in as offensive coordinator (who you could argue is the most important coach on the team second to the head coach), then it's no wonder we aren't getting the better coaching candidates coming here to interview. Who would want to come here without even close to the usual authority afforded a head coach? Neither Fangio nor Munchak have any other HC options, and other big name coaches didn't even consider us. That's where we are. Now, both might be great as coordinators, but we are the ONLY team that is considering making them a HC. We are the ONLY team that considered Taylor as a HC. Am I missing something? Why does our list seem to be different than everybody else's? Could it be that this is a terrible situation for any head coach to come into?

    Back when Elway came to this team it was a similar situation, they hired Fox as one of the only reputable coaches that would come here (and didn't have any other options) because the organization was in the pooper. We praised Elway for salvaging a sinking ship. Now, this mess is all John Elway's. And there is no adult in the organization to slap his hand.

    Elway, Ellis and whatever Bowlen happens to be in the house needs to wake up and tell the GM of this organization to, in the words of Brandon Stokely, "make the hire John and get out of the way."

    If he doesn't, and it doesn't look like he will, I give this next head coaching regime 2 years, 3 years tops before we are doing this all over again. The reason? Fail before it even begins.
    Bullcrap. If either of the two did not want to work with the assistants or Kub they would not take the job. And yes, it's that simple.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Rod- View Post
    McCarthy wants to coach the Jets, but people are saying he stopped grinding and GMs are not crazy about hiring him.

    Arians was hired by the Buccaneers where he already had a relationship with GM Jason Licht and QB Jameis Winston. He already retired, has health issues, so I don't see Arians as a HC that would bring stability.

    I'm glad coaches like Munchak and Fangio want to leave their current jobs to coach the Broncos. As fraguela09 said, we don't have an active owner and there is a legal battle within Bowlen's family. The stadium can't even get a sponsor. There is no viable QB on the roster, Elway's contract expires after the 2021 season.

    Munchak wants to stay closer to his family in the Denver area and the Steelers are starting to have too much drama, so I can see his willingness to work for the Broncos, even if it's a job he might not keep for more than 3 years. Fangio is in a good situation in Chicago with a strong core of young players and a promising HC, so I think he'd be better staying there instead of becoming the HC in Denver.

    We talk about innovation in the NFL, but Elway himself is a dinosaur that likes to stick with what he knows. He hired his former teammate and OC Kubiak, tried to bring back Mike Shanahan last year and is keeping Kubiak around as a potential OC. His first hire was John Fox, a defensive-minded, old-school coach with a lot of miles on his tires. Then he tried a younger coach, Vance Joseph, another defensive-minded coach, probably influenced by Kubiak, and the results were disastrous. Now he is looking for an older, experienced coach again.

    We can't expect a lot of innovation and fresh ideas from Elway, considering the era when he played in the NFL and the style of football that helped him win championships. Young, offensive-minded coach, college coach; that does not seem to be Elway's style. It looks like we will either play smashmouth football with Munchak or rely on defense again with Fangio.
    It seems like a lot of made up drama! Elway, in all modesty has been extremely successful with the Broncos, and we do have a lot of building blocks.

    The speculation about Elway's contract, the family, Ellis.... is just drama. If a new HC comes in and succeeds then they are all safe, and if they don't ....well three years of missing the playoffs sent Shanahan packing.

    The hiring of Kubiak has nothing to do with "old school" and the results speaks for themselves. One SB with Corpse of Manning and Osweiler at QB, and one 9-7 season behind an injured Trevor Siemian and having Paxton Lynch be serviceable.

    Elway leaning on Kubiak is a very natural thing as there is no person in the world that Elway in football sense has been closer to - they shared rooms during their active careers, were in the same meetings, Kubes was there for every success Elway (and Shanahan) ever had and Kubes was always considered the smarter of the two. They think football the same way, and frankly it is not offensive innovation we need, but for the OC to set up Keenum so he can succeed. Kubiak's brilliance with Elway anno 1997-98, with Plummer, with Schaub, with 2015 Manning and Osweiler... was staying within their limitations and winning with what you have. In the end it totally depends on what and how things are in teh interaction with the new HC.

    Kubiak can give calm or conflict, depending on the new HC's abilities and personality. He is a tremendous asset, but it is like what Orton/Sanchez faced with Tebow on the bench - an eternal speculation that can undermine you, if things don't work well.

    What is the drawback for the Broncos job is that we have fired a lot of HCs for performances that do not get HCs fired elsewhere, and winning in a division where Raiders have draft picks and Chiefs and Chargers were the two best AFC teams, kind of undermines job security. How attractive were the HC jobs in AFC East and South when Manning and Brady were untouchable?

  15. #30
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    Good things take some time. JE has the situation under control.
    (No worries)

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