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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    McCarthy isn't getting a job this year. He tried to limit who could talk to him and it turned out they weren't as into him as he was to them. Then Cleveland offered him the job but requested he keep Kitchens and he refused, they moved on.

    McCarthy is trying flex muscles that he doesn't have.
    Sounds like heís just looking for the right opportunity, rather than acting desperate and jumping at any opportunity. Pretty simple

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMR81 View Post
    Sounds like he’s just looking for the right opportunity, rather than acting desperate and jumping at any opportunity. Pretty simple
    He thought Cleveland was the perfect opportunity, and the Front Office is full of guys that have worked with him before. He overplayed his hand.

    He's not a good coach, that's why he's not being fought over the way I'm sure he thought he would be. The Super Bowl is nice, but he's had the best QB for years and they've done nothing with it. Add in that when that QB hasn't played they haven't even looked competent. Whenever he gets hired, he will be fired 2 years later.

  3. #63
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    I don't think the original poster is without merit in his claims. Kubiak running the offense comes off very much an Elway move, and it seems to me that the fact that Kubiak's interviews were blocked lends credence to the fact that he was more of a necessity to the hiring process than an offer to the new head coach. We won't ever know for sure if Fangio really wanted Kubiak as his OC or not. Considering the fact that it was be a HC for the Broncos or not be a HC at all, I wonder if Fangio simply just accepted what was required of him, and played along.

    At any rate, I'm not terribly excited over Kubiak being the OC. Mixed feelings overall. When Elway said he wanted the offense to evolve, I wasn't thinking Kubiak who picks a scheme and sticks with it no matter the personnel. I still remember the nightmare of seeing Schofield on an island against Mack and Kubiak refusing to send in chip help, leading to 5 sacks against Osweiler and a loss to a division opponent. I recall most of 2016's offense as being mediocre to just downright awful. Has everyone forgotten only scoring 3 points against New England already? I've always maintained that Kubiak was probably the best not on the sidelines, if for nothing else at least his health considerations.

    Now whether that was more of Siemian than anything else over the course of the season, maybe. Is Keenum going to be able to accomplish more than Siemian? I hope so, because I don't think this fan base wants to see a third consecutive losing season. Also because there is so much emphasis on the WCO for a running game to establish passing lanes, maybe now is a better time to implement Kubiak's scheme with Lindsay and Freeman in the mix.
    Superbowl 50 Champions!

  4. #64
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    If this is CrazyTrain then I am all aboard because I am all about being a Crazy Denver Broncos Fan lol Maybe I am just plain Crazy lol !! Vic will steer this Train Straight to the Super Bowl ( Once Denver gets a QB ) !!

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAsianPA View Post
    I don't think the original poster is without merit in his claims. Kubiak running the offense comes off very much an Elway move, and it seems to me that the fact that Kubiak's interviews were blocked lends credence to the fact that he was more of a necessity to the hiring process than an offer to the new head coach. We won't ever know for sure if Fangio really wanted Kubiak as his OC or not. Considering the fact that it was be a HC for the Broncos or not be a HC at all, I wonder if Fangio simply just accepted what was required of him, and played along.

    At any rate, I'm not terribly excited over Kubiak being the OC. Mixed feelings overall. When Elway said he wanted the offense to evolve, I wasn't thinking Kubiak who picks a scheme and sticks with it no matter the personnel. I still remember the nightmare of seeing Schofield on an island against Mack and Kubiak refusing to send in chip help, leading to 5 sacks against Osweiler and a loss to a division opponent. I recall most of 2016's offense as being mediocre to just downright awful. Has everyone forgotten only scoring 3 points against New England already? I've always maintained that Kubiak was probably the best not on the sidelines, if for nothing else at least his health considerations.

    Now whether that was more of Siemian than anything else over the course of the season, maybe. Is Keenum going to be able to accomplish more than Siemian? I hope so, because I don't think this fan base wants to see a third consecutive losing season. Also because there is so much emphasis on the WCO for a running game to establish passing lanes, maybe now is a better time to implement Kubiak's scheme with Lindsay and Freeman in the mix.
    I think Kubiak got the most he could possibly get out of Siemian, who actually had a decent year in 2016. Frankly, Kubiak has a track record of getting the best out of middling QBs. Griese, Plummer, and Schaub all went to Pro Bowls on Kubiak's watch. I do believe Keenum will be better under Kubiak than he was under Musgrave.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncolee View Post
    My comment was about Kubiakís offense, not Osweilerís abilities as a quarterback.

    That offense was not good whether it was with a hurting Peyton Manning or a healthy Brock Osweiler.

    Iím of the belief that the offense would have been better if Manning had been allowed to run his offense, despite his ailments.
    Well, if you're gunna rag on Kubes, Osweiler isn't exactly a smoking gun is all I'm sayin.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncoslover115 View Post
    I think bringing in Gregg Williams would be amazing. Canít even imagine what our defense would be like.
    Super amazing, but I get the feeling Fangio's going to want a lackey.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spice 1 View Post
    Super amazing, but I get the feeling Fangio's going to want a lackey.
    Well it will be him running the D so the DC will be title only. Also Williams and Fangio run two very different defenses schematically.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Well it will be him running the D so the DC will be title only. Also Williams and Fangio run two very different defenses schematically.
    Then, there's that...

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humberg View Post
    On the eve of what will, mark my words, go down as another poor decision in a long line of them, I am reflecting on the state of the organization. A lot has been written about ownership, Elway's decisions as GM, the rotating coaching door, lack of a QB etc. But my beef tonight is how they are going about this new coaching hire. And I'm talking about the process here instead of the actual people (because it won't matter). This situation that they've created to hire the next head coach is just downright screwy. It's bonkers. It's madhouse.

    We are retaining coaches on the current coaching staff before we even have a HC in place? Kubiak has been promised a position on the offensive side coaching, perhaps even offensive coordinator? What gives?

    It seems like the talk around the media and their sources around the league is that this is insane. You hire a coach but don't even let him choose his right hand men and coaches/coordinators? Do you want to hamstring them and let them start with one hand tied behind their back from the get-go?

    From what I've heard, and admittedly I'm no expert, you have to have extreme solidarity and trust at the coaching level across the coordinators, position coaches and the head coach. You can't have guys that are Fangio/Munchak guys and guys that are Elway guys. You can't have the head coach looking over their shoulder every time they say something at a players meeting wondering if Elway's guys are going to tell the boss.

    The whole thing just smacks of fail. We certainly saw elements of this throughout the past 2 years when Vance was handed his coaching staff and that didn't work. I think there are plenty of examples around the league of owners or GMs that fail to stay in the box and instead want to be a part time head coach. It doesn't work. That's the stuff of the Raiders, that's very Al Davis (although a very respectful RIP is placed here).

    This Kubiak situation is wonkers. We block him from going anywhere, but he doesn't want the HC position, so what promise him OC? Just either stay in the front office, or be the head coach, but don't straddle the fence and undercut the new guy. Yeah, that's awesome.

    If we have a lot of our positional coaches staying in place, and potentially have someone slotted in as offensive coordinator (who you could argue is the most important coach on the team second to the head coach), then it's no wonder we aren't getting the better coaching candidates coming here to interview. Who would want to come here without even close to the usual authority afforded a head coach? Neither Fangio nor Munchak have any other HC options, and other big name coaches didn't even consider us. That's where we are. Now, both might be great as coordinators, but we are the ONLY team that is considering making them a HC. We are the ONLY team that considered Taylor as a HC. Am I missing something? Why does our list seem to be different than everybody else's? Could it be that this is a terrible situation for any head coach to come into?

    Back when Elway came to this team it was a similar situation, they hired Fox as one of the only reputable coaches that would come here (and didn't have any other options) because the organization was in the pooper. We praised Elway for salvaging a sinking ship. Now, this mess is all John Elway's. And there is no adult in the organization to slap his hand.

    Elway, Ellis and whatever Bowlen happens to be in the house needs to wake up and tell the GM of this organization to, in the words of Brandon Stokely, "make the hire John and get out of the way."

    If he doesn't, and it doesn't look like he will, I give this next head coaching regime 2 years, 3 years tops before we are doing this all over again. The reason? Fail before it even begins.
    I understand your concerns but we needed an older,more experienced guy and I donít think Fangio would have left a very promising young team if he hadnít got assurances that he would absolutely be allowed to coach without interference with Kubiak being an understandable exception as he is a Bronco through and through who can get the job done and whose presence will be favoured by the players.
    I said on another thread that from the uninspiring shortlist he was my #1 choice and I would have been disappointed if any of the others got the job.
    We needed the opposite of VJ and thatís what we got.He was not leaving a team who could be right in the NFC mix next year to be a puppet.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by VonElway758 View Post
    I understand your concerns but we needed an older,more experienced guy and I donít think Fangio would have left a very promising young team if he hadnít got assurances that he would absolutely be allowed to coach without interference with Kubiak being an understandable exception as he is a Bronco through and through who can get the job done and whose presence will be favoured by the players.
    I said on another thread that from the uninspiring shortlist he was my #1 choice and I would have been disappointed if any of the others got the job.
    We needed the opposite of VJ and thatís what we got.He was not leaving a team who could be right in the NFC mix next year to be a puppet.
    No no. Again, for me this is not about the skill of any of the candidates they considered or the fact that they went with Fangio. This is all about the fact that John Elway can't keep his paws off of the decisions that should be left to the head coach. That he's stuck in his old ways of thinking, that he meddles too much in areas he shouldn't and makes bad decision after bad decision. And while he gives lip service to needing to evolve the offense to the modern nfl has just saddled his new head coach with an out dated, rigidly devoted to the west coast style offensive coordinator who has produced dud offense in his last few years with the organization. Fangio may be a great coach, and I'm sure would have some good ideas about offensive coordinators that have been tough to go against in the modern NFL. Too bad he won't get to make that decision. Last time we saw a Kubiak run offense? Pathetic.

    Coach without interference? But oh by the way here is your offensive coordinator, a guy who uses a relic of an offensive system that hasn't worked in years? That's wacky! Anyone who can't see that is drinking the cool aid.

    Elway, keep out!

    This is an Elway rant, not a Fangio one.
    Last edited by Humberg; 01-09-2019 at 07:55 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by VonElway758 View Post
    I understand your concerns but we needed an older,more experienced guy and I donít think Fangio would have left a very promising young team if he hadnít got assurances that he would absolutely be allowed to coach without interference with Kubiak being an understandable exception as he is a Bronco through and through who can get the job done and whose presence will be favoured by the players.
    I said on another thread that from the uninspiring shortlist he was my #1 choice and I would have been disappointed if any of the others got the job.
    We needed the opposite of VJ and thatís what we got.He was not leaving a team who could be right in the NFC mix next year to be a puppet.
    Who knows what assurances he got. Or what the interview process and discussion looked like.

    I do think it is fair to consider if Fangio is the best HC candidate or the one that agreed to this odd arrangement of what looks like a strange co- HC arrangement.

    Fangioís reputation is on the line as HC but it sure looks like Kubiak still has the influence and final decision making authority with the Broncos .

    Fangio seems to be a great DC but not a dynamic personality. At 60 years old he is not getting too many more opportunities to be a HC. Have to wonder if he is the ďpuppetĒ that gets to do all the HC duties Kubiak wasnít interested in doing.

    Kubiak has health issues that are concerning. OC is still a stressful job. Will his health last all season? For multiple seasons?

    Just an odd situation IMO. Hope the dynamic works for all of them. Broncos could use a break after the past couple seasons.

  13. #73
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    It's water under the bridge now, but TC is dead right. Right or wrong, Elway has gone full Al Davis. Meddling beyond the role of a GM. Unwilling to give his coach autonomy. He saddled Vance Joseph with the awesome Mike McCoy, who Vance didn't even now. But free pass cause he's Elway?

    I like Kubes a lot and genuinely (and selfishly) hopes he does well. Although his version of the zone-read O is 2 decades out of date and I hope the run game we finally discovered after he left doesn't go back in time. I also think our offensive decline in 2015 was as much Kubiak as Peyton's arm.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humberg View Post
    No no. Again, for me this is not about the skill of any of the candidates they considered or the fact that they went with Fangio. This is all about the fact that John Elway can't keep his paws off of the decisions that should be left to the head coach. That he's stuck in his old ways of thinking, that he meddles too much in areas he shouldn't and makes bad decision after bad decision. And while he gives lip service to needing to evolve the offense to the modern nfl has just saddled his new head coach with an out dated, rigidly devoted to the west coast style offensive coordinator who has produced dud offense in his last few years with the organization. Fangio may be a great coach, and I'm sure would have some good ideas about offensive coordinators that have been tough to go against in the modern NFL. Too bad he won't get to make that decision. Last time we saw a Kubiak run offense? Pathetic.

    Coach without interference? But oh by the way here is your offensive coordinator, a guy who uses a relic of an offensive system that hasn't worked in years? That's wacky! Anyone who can't see that is drinking the cool aid.

    Elway, keep out!

    This is an Elway rant, not a Fangio one.
    No no. Again!

    Kubiak is a massive asset for Fangio!

    Fangio is a DC that like Wade had been elite for decades, yet still did not get a HC opportunity, and for all we know might not be HC material on the offensive side of the ball. What it all boils down to is NOT Elway or any other pie in the sky.

    It boils down to who has the "big boy pants". Kubiak is a tremendous OC and he has a knowledge about the players that Fangio has no chance of having. If we speculate that Fox after he needed surgery had stepped down as HC and it was McDaniels that had come in with his football brilliance and issues in other areas as a 75% HC, it would probably have been a massive success!

    This is NOT about Elway but about Fangio and Kubiak!

    If it works it will be the best of two worlds, and if Fangio fails Elway will be right that he is the last HC that Elway is likely to hire.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Well it will be him running the D so the DC will be title only. Also Williams and Fangio run two very different defenses schematically.
    The Head Coach must oversee the whole team or he won't be HC for long as in the case of Romeo Crennel in KC. DC must do all the scouting, practice, meetings and prep for scout team O which is an enormous amount of time consuming work which begins each week. DC will have plenty to do even if he isn't calling the D.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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