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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel B. View Post
    HELL NO!!!

    I wouldn't trade any Super Bowl victory for anything but I'd trade every Super Bowl loss.


    Good idea! Let's swap out Super Bowl XXIV 55-10 for some winning seasons and let the '89 Browns run into that Niners buzzsaw instead.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenverBlood View Post
    Would you consider the Browns season a success? The quick answer is yes.

    0 wins in 2017. 7 wins in 2018. The needle is pointing up. Plenty to get excited about.

    But a closer look had fans and players calling for Super Bowl contention back in August. Jarvis Landry was claiming the team would average 40 points a game. By that measure it's a failure.
    Fans and players don't realistically assess a team's chances of winning the Super Bowl. It's more a case of wishful thinking.

    I honestly think the answer lies somewhere in between. By rebuilding standards as you mention yes it was a success. But I think most fans enter every season hoping for more. Realistic or not. That's why we are called fanatics.

    As for the OP notion it wouldn't be rebuilding years. It would be 3 playoff years in exchange for that Super Bowl Trophy. Meaning they wouldn't be rebuilding year. They would be success years that ended in disappointment and failure. So by that measure his statement is absolutely correct that the season ending in anything except Super Bowl Victory is failure.
    He didn't put the "playoff contender" qualifier in his post, though, implying that it was valid for any team. If you assume he meant playoff contender, then yes, anything short of winning the Lombardi is a failure.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
    It seems fairly obvious a lot of people on this board want Elway gone, or blame him for the abject failure of the football team the last 2 if not 3 seasons. So the question then becomes, would you give up the 2015 Banner for having made the playoffs the last 3 years? That's the trade. We get everything that comes with John Elway, and one of those things is a Super Bowl victory. Just wondering.

  4. #34
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    No. No. No. Absolutely not. Did I say noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
    Adopted Bronco: DeMarcus Ware

  5. #35
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    Everyone pretty much summed it up.....
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  6. #36
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    No. There's no guarantee we win a SB in said winning seasons. You take the SB win 8 days a week.

  7. #37
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    The obvious answer is, no. A superbowl win is the point of winning seasons. But you can't bring up a situation where it's either/or. A superbowl win does not mean that after that win it's ok to go back into mediocrity or the bottom of the barrel. The question then becomes, after winning a Superbowl, how long do you have until you need to start showing a competitive team again? It's where you set your goals. If one SB win every two decades is the goal, then that's not going to cut it for me.

    Elway himself has said that the blame for where the team is in falls on him.
    Superbowl 50 Champions!

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAsianPA View Post
    The obvious answer is, no. A superbowl win is the point of winning seasons. But you can't bring up a situation where it's either/or. A superbowl win does not mean that after that win it's ok to go back into mediocrity or the bottom of the barrel. The question then becomes, after winning a Superbowl, how long do you have until you need to start showing a competitive team again? It's where you set your goals. If one SB win every two decades is the goal, then that's not going to cut it for me.

    Elway himself has said that the blame for where the team is in falls on him.
    That actually happens quite a bit though. After a super bowl victory a lot of teams lose some of their key guys because they go and chase the money in free agency ( Malik Jackson ) and it takes some time to fill the void. Winning championships is so hard because of the parity in the league. All I want is for our team to be playoff contenders and once we get into the dance....theres always a chance . Imo, Elway will get this team back to contenders again and it started with Fangio


    Andy Jano 2017 adopted Bronco

  9. #39
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    I mean, you look around and you see threads like this and others titled "Elway is the greatest Bronco ever!" which comes off to me as litmus test to how much of a cult this fanbase can become. I don't think as some have said that he's getting unfairly bashed on when you look at the overall 'god' status he is placed on. Three years of missing the playoffs, no franchise QB, a complete failure of drafts until 2018, and poor coaching selections will unsurprisingly put anyone on the hot seat. Elway isn't immune to this despite what he's done. And make no mistake, I do appreciate what he's accomplished - without Elway there aren't three SB wins. But as Rod has said, a Superbowl win isn't going to grant a GM immunity forever, it's going to give him leeway and respect - or else why would Mike Shanahan have been fired? There's an endpoint to all careers if they aren't showing improvement, regardless of the past achievements. Elway seems to understand this fact better than some posters here.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JvDub95 View Post
    That actually happens quite a bit though. After a super bowl victory a lot of teams lose some of their key guys because they go and chase the money in free agency ( Malik Jackson ) and it takes some time to fill the void. Winning championships is so hard because of the parity in the league. All I want is for our team to be playoff contenders and once we get into the dance....theres always a chance . Imo, Elway will get this team back to contenders again and it started with Fangio
    I hope so. There's a lot of work cut out for Fangio as it is right now.
    Superbowl 50 Champions!

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertR View Post
    I think you're asking the wrong question. Every rational fan is happy
    that Elway made the decisions that brought a Super Bowl victory. The question is, does that victory mean Elway gets a "pass" for all his future decisions? The answer is of course not. As Elway himself said, the team is supposed to win from NOW ON, and past wins are just that - the PAST.
    Nope, I asked the exact question I meant to. I don't know how you look at 2011 to 2018 and say there was more avoidable failure than achieved success. 2 Super Bowl appearances, 1 Lombardi, 5 straight division titles. That's a lot of success. How many other teams, in that exact same time frame, have had as much or more success? You can ponder it or I can tell you. The Seahawks and the Patriots. Both led by future Hall of Fame head coaches.

    As to your question; Does that victory (referring to Super Bowl 50) mean Elway gets a "pass" (I assume the no pun intended was implied) for all his future decisions? "Frankly, it's a silly question. The No answer is so obvious that the question isn't even worth asking." No one gets to rest on their laurels forever. But if success doesn't afford you the opportunity to rebuild and reinvent, then what does? I'm as critical of his offensive drafts (2018 draft class not withstanding) as anyone. We should have Ryan Ramczyk instead of Bolles. Listing the QB's we could have instead of who we have would take up too much space. But he's also brought us players I'm not sure anyone else could have attracted. Manning, Ware, Ward, Talib. Those pieces helped us win a championship.

    As for misses on Coaches? Hugh Jackson was a head coach and might be again. He didn't have anything to do with Josh McDaniels, and while Vance was bad, Vance didn't destroy the locker room and try to destroy the organization. Truth is, with the exception of the Steelers, EVERY team in the NFL has missed at head coach, many more than once.

    Does Elway need to get better at his job in a hurry? Of course he does. Is he alone in that regard? Of course not. Do you move on from a Super Bowl winning executive with 5 division titles and 2 championship appearances in 8 years after the best draft of his tenure? Ummmm, if you're an idiot, maybe.

    And please don't come at me with "how is it fair he continues to get time and the coaches keep getting fired?" That's a popular rant of the talking heads. Let. Me. See. Maybe because the coaches he fired (Fox and Joseph) don't have any Super Bowl victories to show for their efforts, and he does. He has easily been more successful at his job than EITHER Fox or Joseph was at theirs.
    All it takes to win is doing whatever it takes to win: COMMITMENT

  12. #42
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    NO, But the standard in Denver for the Broncos has always been high, we all expect a winning team. And Vic did mention the fact that we are one of a few franchise's in the NFL that have won the championship multiple times.

    We should all expect better this upcoming season. As every team has talent , few have the coaching that it takes to win.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAsianPA View Post
    I mean, you look around and you see threads like this and others titled "Elway is the greatest Bronco ever!" which comes off to me as litmus test to how much of a cult this fanbase can become. I don't think as some have said that he's getting unfairly bashed on when you look at the overall 'god' status he is placed on. Three years of missing the playoffs, no franchise QB, a complete failure of drafts until 2018, and poor coaching selections will unsurprisingly put anyone on the hot seat. Elway isn't immune to this despite what he's done. And make no mistake, I do appreciate what he's accomplished - without Elway there aren't three SB wins. But as Rod has said, a Superbowl win isn't going to grant a GM immunity forever, it's going to give him leeway and respect - or else why would Mike Shanahan have been fired? There's an endpoint to all careers if they aren't showing improvement, regardless of the past achievements. Elway seems to understand this fact better than some posters here.
    First of all, this thread has nothing to do with Elway being the greatest Bronco of all time, which he clearly is. It merely sought to understand how much failure do you, as an individual, think Elway's previous successes as an executive should allow him to work through. If people who believe in continued support of Elway automatically become cult fans, then conversely, it seems apparent to me that those he believe he should be fired are merely haters. It's EASY to diminish anyone's beliefs to the lowest common denominator. What's difficult is trying to be unbiased when processing information and coming to an unemotional conclusion.

    Second, this actually lends to my argument for more time and subtracts from your argument for removal. His primary job is to populate the team and staff with the best possible people. You admit that, as for players, 2018 was his best draft yet. So you want to fire a personnel guy who seems to have turned the corner on finding the right personnel?

    Third, you either accidentally made the word 'selections' plural, or you're being disingenuous, or you're just wrong. The only coaching hire he made he absolutely should not have made is Vance Joseph. Fox stabilized a franchise on the verge of ruin, and Kubiak won a Super Bowl. And as I've said before, EVERY team in the league has missed on at least one head coach, with the exception of the Steelers.

    Fourth, of course he's on the hot seat. Who is implying he isn't or shouldn't be? I have a very simplistic argument that he should still be here, end of story. Here versus gone. I have absolutely no argument with him being uncomfortable in his perch.

    Fifth, this is a TERRIBLE comparison. Shanny was give TEN YEARS to find more success after his last Super Bowl Win. Elway is 3 years removed. If this is the standard you're adopting, let's shelve this topic for another 7 years.

    Last, I understand why you would have many of the opinions you've stated. I would ask, in future, don't pigeon hole someone's thread into what you want it to say, and just take it at face value. If you're not arguing for Elway's immediate termination, then you have no quarrel with my initial thread.
    Last edited by Letswinplz77; 01-10-2019 at 05:18 PM.
    All it takes to win is doing whatever it takes to win: COMMITMENT

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
    Nope, I asked the exact question I meant to.
    Everyone in this thread has responded with the obvious answer, making it a pointless question.


    As to your question; Does that victory (referring to Super Bowl 50) mean Elway gets a "pass" (I assume the no pun intended was implied) for all his future decisions? "Frankly, it's a silly question. The No answer is so obvious that the question isn't even worth asking." No one gets to rest on their laurels forever.
    Good, we're in agreement.


    Does Elway need to get better at his job in a hurry? Of course he does.
    Again, we're in agreement.


    Do you move on from a Super Bowl winning executive with 5 division titles and 2 championship appearances in 8 years after the best draft of his tenure?
    As you said, the obvious answer is no. But again, as you said, things need to get better in a hurry.
    Last edited by RobertR; 01-10-2019 at 08:09 PM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
    First of all, this thread has nothing to do with Elway being the greatest Bronco of all time, which he clearly is. It merely sought to understand how much failure do you, as an individual, think Elway's previous successes as an executive should allow him to work through. If people who believe in continued support of Elway automatically become cult fans, then conversely, it seems apparent to me that those he believe he should be fired are merely haters. It's EASY to diminish anyone's beliefs to the lowest common denominator. What's difficult is trying to be unbiased when processing information and coming to an unemotional conclusion.

    Second, this actually lends to my argument for more time and subtracts from your argument for removal. His primary job is the populate the team and staff with the best possible people. You admit that, as for players, 2018 was his best draft yet. So you want to fire a personnel guy who seems to have turned the corner on finding the right personnel?

    Third, you either accidentally made the word 'selections' plural, or you're being disingenuous, or you're just wrong. The only coaching hire he made he absolutely should not have made is Vance Joseph. Fox stabilized a franchise on the verge of ruin, and Kubiak won a Super Bowl. And as I've said before, EVERY team in the league has missed on at least one head coach, with the exception of the Steelers.

    Fourth, of course he's on the hot seat. Who is implying he isn't or shouldn't be. I have a very simplistic argument that he should still be here, end of story. Here versus gone. I have absolutely no argument with him being uncomfortable in his perch.

    Fifth, this is a TERRIBLE comparison. Shanny was give TEN YEARS to find more success after his last Super Bowl Win. Elway is 3 years removed. If this is the standard you're adopting, let's shelve this topic for another 7 years.

    Last, I understand why you would have many of the opinions you've stated. I would ask, in future, don't pigeon hole someone's thread into what you want it to say, and just take it at face value. If you're not arguing for Elway's immediate termination, then you have no quarrel with my initial thread.
    Don't take this personally, but responses to threads can have many depths of responses instead of a 100% in agreement posts or a complete 180 in 'fire Elway now!' conversations - that's how a mature discussion takes place. We don't have to agree on everything, it's more important that those who respond to your thread have the ability to express their full opinion.

    1. I've never said anything about Elway needing to be fired. A rational thought would say that his past successes has given him the next few years to rebuild/retool the team, which obviously has been given to him. But that is very different than to say that Elway can do no wrong, and that he is completely removed from why this team is failing. You say we have to have an unemotional evaluation to the situation - I agree. I believe it does indeed take a critical mind to see why this team is in the state it's in - not what has happened in 2015. You want a topic that is very clearly directed at posters who want successes now, when really what we want this franchise to look like now has nothing to do with 2015's SB win. The key to success is to never settle, and I believe many posters have when they clutch the 2015 SB win as the only important part of this franchise.

    2. Once again, I'm not saying Elway needs to be fired. I'm saying his drafts have been questionable. One good draft doesn't make up for the 9 others that have net only a handful of players. The math adds up in that you can't rely on one single rookie class to carry a team - that's how you go 6-10. You are severely mistaking critique as a 'bash sequence,' when really that's the nature of it. You have to do better than one good draft class out of the better part of a decade in order to have sustained success. I certainly hope he can do it again, because we'll need it desperately in our division.

    3. I don't think I was being disingenuous at all. You simply are thinking I'm referring to head coaching candidates, when I'm not. I'm thinking of the Mike McCoy, Vance Joseph, Rick Dennison, Joe Woods, Brock Olivos, Bill Musgraves, and so on and so forth. Vance Joseph being a poor coach was the result of having poor coordinators underneath him, both on offense and on defense. With this year especially suspect, it seems that coordinators are more of Elways preference than it is the head coaches. And once again, this is an observation that these choices have not worked out.

    4. Ask the posters on here. Is Elway on the hot seat? Some will flag you and neg you for even suggesting it. It's not a mystery that Elway is the Duke of Denver and treated with almost a god-like presence by the posters here. The reality is that he can make mistakes, and that's okay to bring up. As Elway himself said in the post season presser "I’m just like everybody else and I have been my whole life, you put me on a pedestal. My mindset has always been the same in the fact that I’m only as good as the people around me and people that I hire and that work together and try to get the best solution for problems that we do have."

    5. That's the point, is that maybe Shanahan shouldn't have had ten years? Maybe it wouldn't have taken a pro-bowl HOF QB to come here to turn it around if we had moved on earlier. That's part of critical thinking instead of having a binary view. If you want a topic that wants a black and white response of "I want winning years over SB wins" that don't address the deeper reasons to them, then make a poll. You say that Shanahan is a terrible comparison - well so is putting posters in a position where you praise Elway for a SB win vs being a whinging brat for wanting winning seasons.

    Short of all that, if you don't like my responses, there's a block feature. Use it if you want.
    Last edited by TheAsianPA; 01-10-2019 at 05:45 PM.
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