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Thread: Drew Lock

  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by JW7 View Post
    Because that's the type of Quarterback needed for the offense we want to run. Not saying Lock can't learn but taking snaps under center will be very important.
    Sure, I'm not saying he wont have to. I'm saying if you're looking for a 1st round QB prospect that spent the majority of his time under center, this isnt the draft. Neither is 2020 and neither is 2021. Just like 2018, 2017, and 2016 too.

    So again, why does it matter how much time Lock spent under center when none of the other top tier QBs have spent any time there either?

  2. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa-pwn View Post
    Sure, I'm not saying he wont have to. I'm saying if you're looking for a 1st round QB prospect that spent the majority of his time under center, this isnt the draft. Neither is 2020 and neither is 2021. Just like 2018, 2017, and 2016 too.

    So again, why does it matter how much time Lock spent under center when none of the other top tier QBs have spent any time there either?
    It could matter to the Broncos/Fangio and Scangarello offense ... the 49ers offense was in the top 5 last year in having a QB come from under center; 56% of snaps from under center, only the Rams did it more at 63% and actually NE was at 55%. Scangarello comes from the 49ers so he might have the QB take snaps at center 50% or more. Fangio has stated that he wants a balanced offense and he isn't talking just between run/pass, he said a lot of play action etc; PAP work best when the QB comes from under center. Some pretty good offenses still have their QB takes snaps from under center.

    Ultimately, I don't think the Broncos will pass up Lock just because he hasn't taken snaps from under the center, as stated by you almost no college QBs do. Lock has played in a more NFL type offense his Sr season and he has a private QB coach - Justin Hoover - that has been training him... “As the private QB coach, my goal is to supplement what you are not getting at your school,” Hoover says. “Since you are based out of the gun, you need to get under center and throw a rhythm five and throw a speed out. If you can be on time and in rhythm from under center, think about how easy it is on your feet when you are out of shotgun.” He has shown the interest and ability to learn the game on an NFL level and has progressed over his years in college, I imagine he can learn, in his first season to play from under center.

  3. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianmcfarlane View Post
    It could matter to the Broncos/Fangio and Scangarello offense ... the 49ers offense was in the top 5 last year in having a QB come from under center; 56% of snaps from under center, only the Rams did it more at 63% and actually NE was at 55%. Scangarello comes from the 49ers so he might have the QB take snaps at center 50% or more. Fangio has stated that he wants a balanced offense and he isn't talking just between run/pass, he said a lot of play action etc; PAP work best when the QB comes from under center. Some pretty good offenses still have their QB takes snaps from under center.

    Ultimately, I don't think the Broncos will pass up Lock just because he hasn't taken snaps from under the center, as stated by you almost no college QBs do. Lock has played in a more NFL type offense his Sr season and he has a private QB coach - Justin Hoover - that has been training him... “As the private QB coach, my goal is to supplement what you are not getting at your school,” Hoover says. “Since you are based out of the gun, you need to get under center and throw a rhythm five and throw a speed out. If you can be on time and in rhythm from under center, think about how easy it is on your feet when you are out of shotgun.” He has shown the interest and ability to learn the game on an NFL level and has progressed over his years in college, I imagine he can learn, in his first season to play from under center.

    My only fear with taking a QB that has had no experience running an offense under center is that you will get another Paxton Lynch... Some one who only threw from the Shotgun supposedly had a Big Arm however when you draft a QB that high yes #10 is high you expect that QB to be your Savior and when you get him into camp and you see that all he does is struggle from the center position then you have repeated the same disaster all over again ! You know I was and I am still super High on Nick Mullens and one thing I saw from Nick is that he could make all the throws from Under Center and in the Shot Gun and Truth be told if you are going to use PAP the right way it has to be done under center. Maybe Rick can somehow get Nick to come on over to Denver !

  4. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENVERSB50CHAMP View Post
    My only fear with taking a QB that has had no experience running an offense under center is that you will get another Paxton Lynch... Some one who only threw from the Shotgun supposedly had a Big Arm however when you draft a QB that high yes #10 is high you expect that QB to be your Savior and when you get him into camp and you see that all he does is struggle from the center position then you have repeated the same disaster all over again ! You know I was and I am still super High on Nick Mullens and one thing I saw from Nick is that he could make all the throws from Under Center and in the Shot Gun and Truth be told if you are going to use PAP the right way it has to be done under center. Maybe Rick can somehow get Nick to come on over to Denver !
    Who do you take then? Because Murray, Haskins and Stidham all played out of shotgun with a majority of run plays coming on reads from Shotgun.

    Which is Papa-pawns point. Its an irrelevant question when criticizing Lock when none of the other guys do it either.

  5. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenverBlood View Post
    Who do you take then? Because Murray, Haskins and Stidham all played out of shotgun with a majority of run plays coming on reads from Shotgun.

    Which is Papa-pawns point. It’s an irrelevant question when criticizing Lock when none of the other guys do it either.

    Ya I agree and I feel that way about all QB's who do not have Experience running an offense behind the center so I am not just criticizing Lock so the Truth be told I would not even draft a QB at #10 because I look at this way the Truth be told when has Denver ever Drafted a QB that has taken Denver to the Super Bowl? John Elway was not even drafted by Denver so the truth to that is No One QB that was Drafted by Denver has ever done anything for us so I would take that into the thought however Denver has had much Success with FA QB's so since Denver just traded for Joe I would roll with him for a few years (Unless this becomes another Case to which I believe that it will not be I believe that Joe Flacco will get us into the Playoffs this year and Denver will surprise all ) and you draft a cannot miss type of player and impact player from day 1 with the Number 10 Pick like a Bosa or an Oliver or an TJ Hock because if you draft a QB at number 10 it will be 3 years at best before you really know what you have and we do not have 3 Years to play with I say you keep getting FA QB's till you find the right one.

  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa-pwn View Post
    Sure, it worries me somewhat. But that bit of hesitation is overshadowed by the ceiling I feel he has, by his demonstrated work ethic and yearly improvement. I have a ton of faith in our new coaching staff and think that they would be able get the most out of him.

    There's always going to be flawed prospects, very few a sure things with no reason to doubt, Lock isnt one. But he is talented and has the potential to be exactly what we need. Continue to ride with some of the league's worst starting QBs like Keenum and Flacco, with no developmental potential behind them, worries me far more than any flaw a rookie QB could have.
    Fair points, and I agree that we need to have someone developing, I would prefer to have a rookie playing from day 1 honestly, I am pro re-build. However, with Elway seemingly set on playing Flacco, and regardless of if you agree with the move or not, all signs point to that being the reality of the situation, do you value Lock higher than the group of quarterbacks next year ? And is that one year of Lock sitting on the bench going to give him that much of advantage over say Justin Herbert in a years time ? I don't think so, but to each their own.

    I also agree with you on the worry that was brought up about Lock playing under center, it doesn't matter to me, and recent history suggests that it isn't as big of a deal as the talking heads, and old school football guys make it out to be. I have seen high school quarterbacks learn the skill in an off-season and take to it like a duck to water, I don't think Lock, will have any major issues with the adjustment. The biggest adjustment really is reading the field during the drop back, and Lock seems to have that ability in spurts, although his footwork will need a lot of refining, it doesn't worry me.

  7. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Fair points, and I agree that we need to have someone developing, I would prefer to have a rookie playing from day 1 honestly, I am pro re-build. However, with Elway seemingly set on playing Flacco, and regardless of if you agree with the move or not, all signs point to that being the reality of the situation, do you value Lock higher than the group of quarterbacks next year ? And is that one year of Lock sitting on the bench going to give him that much of advantage over say Justin Herbert in a years time ? I don't think so, but to each their own.

    I also agree with you on the worry that was brought up about Lock playing under center, it doesn't matter to me, and recent history suggests that it isn't as big of a deal as the talking heads, and old school football guys make it out to be. I have seen high school quarterbacks learn the skill in an off-season and take to it like a duck to water, I don't think Lock, will have any major issues with the adjustment. The biggest adjustment really is reading the field during the drop back, and Lock seems to have that ability in spurts, although his footwork will need a lot of refining, it doesn't worry me.
    Very Great Insight !

  8. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa-pwn View Post
    Yep. Lock and Flacco can run the same offense and the transition from Flacco to Lock should be seamless.

    10 games in is about where I see the Flacco plug being pulled. 3-7 should do it but that didn't get Keenum benched so we will see.
    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    How much has Drew Lock played from under Center?
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa-pwn View Post
    Before I answer that, answer this: why does that even matter?

    Rhetorical, of course, because the amount of a QB's snaps coming from under center is a largely irrelevant factor in 2019. How much time a prospect has played under center is really not even a factor in draft assessments anymore. It was fading fast in 2016 and 2017, but 2018 pretty much put it to bed It really hasn't been relevant for a while and surely isnt now.

    Finding a top tier QB prospect who spent more than a little time under center is almost completely thing of a past. You'll get one every so often, but even that is rapidly fading. You've got to go back to 2012 to find a top 10 QB that didn't take the majority of their snaps from shotgun. That being said, Lock spent the most time with pro style concepts out of all of the top QB prospects in this draft.

    If you want a QB who played predominantly under center, maybe Shea Patterson is your style? I'm not sure why, considering the NFL has been run a majority of shotgun since 2015.




    If you were just trying to be cheeky, go ahead, but my point was from a physical standpoint Drew Lock is a great fit for the type of shanny-influenced WCO we should be running this year. Flacco is a solid fit as well, though his physical abilities are fading fast.
    You said transition from Flacco to Lock would be "seamless". I asked how much Lock had played under Center. Is it "cheeky" to ask a question?

    There was a recent article on the Denver Broncos website saying to expect Scangarello's offense to put the QB under Center at least half the time. Along with that there have been interviews with Elway and Fangio stating that they want a balanced offense with a lot of PAP. Fangio indicated that by balance he means more than just equal snaps run and pass. In the rushing attack, it's balance between inside and outside, zone and angle. In the passing attack, it's balance between short, medium, long and using all eligible receivers. They probably mean to include Draw and Screen in the balance.

    Why does QB play from under Center matter? Probably because the Broncos are going to do it. Flacco has done it, but if Drew Lock hasn't, transitioning to putting the ball into play from under Center might not be as "seamless" as you think. QBs have a lot to think about when lining up to run a play. You don't want him thinking about all the things involved with taking the snap and getting to the meshpoint on top of thinking about the D and the play called.

    A QB prospect would need to be evaluated to develop a clue as to how well they can play under Center, or how well he might be able to learn and how long it would take for it to be automatic. It's a big deal for a shotgun QB to start going under Center. It's a different view of the defense. Getting the snap, seating the ball and taking drop steps or steps to the meshpoint for a handoff/fake has way more movements and opportunities to put the ball on the ground than taking a direct snap in shotgun.

    It's worth the effort. Play-action passes are far more convincing from under Center than Gun. The meshpoint is more concealed when the QB has taken steps to it from under Center. If Denver does run a balanced attack, the D will bite on play action which will make under Center more effective.

    I'm looking forward to the new offense and if it will be balanced with plenty of PAP and about half from under Center. I'm sure that all QBs who have visited Dove Valley prior to the Draft will have taken snaps from under Center as part of their workout. Any QB they draft will need to learn how to do it as quickly as possible so that he does it automatically without having to think about it.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Why does QB play from under Center matter? Probably because the Broncos are going to do it. Flacco has done it, but if Drew Lock hasn't, transitioning to putting the ball into play from under Center might not be as "seamless" as you think. QBs have a lot to think about when lining up to run a play. You don't want him thinking about all the things involved with taking the snap and getting to the meshpoint on top of thinking about the D and the play called.
    However, to counter that point about a transition being seamless from Flacco to Lock in the hypothetical future. In this world we have now entered, it would mean Flacco has been playing, he has been taking majority of the practice reps, he has been playing in every game, and he has probably started for a full 16 games, hopefully a couple more in the playoffs. During this time, what would Locks role be ? It would be running the scout team, and working on the weak areas of his game. As you say, that would probably be working from under center, and all that comes along with that, particularly refining his footwork.

    That would mean, again in this hypothetical world, that Lock has spent this off-season, a full pre-season, and a full NFL season as the backup working on these things every single day. Then say the transition period begins in 2020, he would have another full-off-season to continue to work on these skills, or at that point hopefully be just taking these reps from under center where it has become muscle memory, and the transition to him would be seamless in this particular regard. Obviously a transition to a first time starter would come with some low times, and I would expect that, but I think the worry about playing under center is overblown, as proven year after year with these college quarterbacks having little to no issues with it at all.

  10. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenverBlood View Post
    I don’t really ever care for this trait much that people put so much emphasis on.

    For one not many college QBs spend a ton of time under center. Especially not in today’s college systems.

    For another several NfL quarterbacks these days spend a lot more time in shotgun than they used to. Brady does it a ton. Manning did it a majority of the time. Sure both could run under center. But they spend a ton of time in shotgun. So does Brees.

    I feel like the ability to run under center is way overblown these days.
    Quote Originally Posted by brianmcfarlane View Post
    It could matter to the Broncos/Fangio and Scangarello offense ... the 49ers offense was in the top 5 last year in having a QB come from under center; 56% of snaps from under center, only the Rams did it more at 63% and actually NE was at 55%. Scangarello comes from the 49ers so he might have the QB take snaps at center 50% or more. Fangio has stated that he wants a balanced offense and he isn't talking just between run/pass, he said a lot of play action etc; PAP work best when the QB comes from under center. Some pretty good offenses still have their QB takes snaps from under center.

    Ultimately, I don't think the Broncos will pass up Lock just because he hasn't taken snaps from under the center, as stated by you almost no college QBs do. Lock has played in a more NFL type offense his Sr season and he has a private QB coach - Justin Hoover - that has been training him... “As the private QB coach, my goal is to supplement what you are not getting at your school,” Hoover says. “Since you are based out of the gun, you need to get under center and throw a rhythm five and throw a speed out. If you can be on time and in rhythm from under center, think about how easy it is on your feet when you are out of shotgun.” He has shown the interest and ability to learn the game on an NFL level and has progressed over his years in college, I imagine he can learn, in his first season to play from under center.
    http://www.denverbroncos.com/news/wh...-a-quarterback

    http://www.milehighreport.com/2019/3...s-a-good-thing

    There you go, DB. Denver will probably join the Rams, Pats, Niners and Saints going under Center about half the snaps or more. Sufficiently relevant for you?
    Last edited by samparnell; 04-12-2019 at 01:48 PM.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  11. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    However, to counter that point about a transition being seamless from Flacco to Lock in the hypothetical future. In this world we have now entered, it would mean Flacco has been playing, he has been taking majority of the practice reps, he has been playing in every game, and he has probably started for a full 16 games, hopefully a couple more in the playoffs. During this time, what would Locks role be ? It would be running the scout team, and working on the weak areas of his game. As you say, that would probably be working from under center, and all that comes along with that, particularly refining his footwork.

    That would mean, again in this hypothetical world, that Lock has spent this off-season, a full pre-season, and a full NFL season as the backup working on these things every single day. Then say the transition period begins in 2020, he would have another full-off-season to continue to work on these skills, or at that point hopefully be just taking these reps from under center where it has become muscle memory, and the transition to him would be seamless in this particular regard. Obviously a transition to a first time starter would come with some low times, and I would expect that, but I think the worry about playing under center is overblown, as proven year after year with these college quarterbacks having little to no issues with it at all.
    Scout team QB doesn't run his team's offense. He runs the opponent's offense, and is supervised mostly by defensive coaches who have prepared what is to be run from scouting.

    BTW, you missed the last paragraph of post #548.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Fair points, and I agree that we need to have someone developing, I would prefer to have a rookie playing from day 1 honestly, I am pro re-build. However, with Elway seemingly set on playing Flacco, and regardless of if you agree with the move or not, all signs point to that being the reality of the situation, do you value Lock higher than the group of quarterbacks next year ? And is that one year of Lock sitting on the bench going to give him that much of advantage over say Justin Herbert in a years time ? I don't think so, but to each their own.

    I also agree with you on the worry that was brought up about Lock playing under center, it doesn't matter to me, and recent history suggests that it isn't as big of a deal as the talking heads, and old school football guys make it out to be. I have seen high school quarterbacks learn the skill in an off-season and take to it like a duck to water, I don't think Lock, will have any major issues with the adjustment. The biggest adjustment really is reading the field during the drop back, and Lock seems to have that ability in spurts, although his footwork will need a lot of refining, it doesn't worry me.
    You haven't lived until you've tried to teach high school players to run Guard hole Trap from the I formation for their first time. If you ever decide to try it, be patient; the ball will hit the ground a dozen times before the handoff is secure.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  13. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Scout team QB doesn't run his team's offense. He runs the opponent's offense, and is supervised mostly by defensive coaches who have prepared what is to be run from scouting.

    BTW, you missed the last paragraph of post #548.

    You haven't lived until you've tried to teach high school players to run Guard hole Trap from the I formation for their first time. If you ever decide to try it, be patient; the ball will hit the ground a dozen times before the handoff is secure.
    Correct, but in any case it would be an NFL offense he would be emulating while running scout team, correct ? And as you have pointed out, most NFL teams will have their quarterbacks under center for some percentage of snaps, therefore, it makes no difference to the crux of the conversation we are having here. In that hypothetical world also, Lock would still be in a position where every single day he would be working on that skill, for an extended period of time, so it would become second nature, the point we agree on. I didn't miss the last paragraph by the way, I was discussing the process of getting to that point of conversation of taking snaps under center becoming second nature.

    What we disagree on is the difficultly of getting to that point. What college quarterback recently has transitioned to the NFL and actually struggled to take snaps from under center ? I do not recall anyone transitioning to the NFL having fumbling issues, or having problems with the center exchange at all, who ? It's an overblown regurgitated rhetoric which hasn't held true in recent times, except for maybe a guy here or there, but for the large part, it's a non-concern.

    On your last point, the good thing is, the coaches won't be teaching high school kids, they are NFL professionals who have been coached by the best, played with the best, and played against the best for a number of years now, most guys for the better part of a decade. So again, it wouldn't even be close to coaching a high school guard about the timing of running a trap block, or someone who has zero experience in taking snaps from under center. And even so, the conversation is about Drew Lock and transitioning, that was the point I responded to, and you are acting like in the scenario, he wouldn't have time to learn and practice these things.

    In this situation he would have an opportunity to develop these skills while waiting in the wings. Sure, if we lock Drew Lock in a box for 6 months, and now we are at week 6 and we drop him into the game with no prep or practice, I bet the ball would be on the ground, a lot. But he has time to practice, time to hone his skills, and wherever he ends up, I doubt his success will be determined by his ability to take the snap from under center, or how to complete a hand off from the I Formation because he couldn't get his timing right with a pulling guard.

  14. #554
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    Also Sam, did you watch the Senior Bowl game this year ? Drew Lock took a handful of snaps from under center, off-set I formation handing the football off, ran some naked boots out of it with tight end movement in the backfield, and he looked perfectly comfortable doing so. He also ran a 3rd or 4th down quarterback sneak from under center, and in the 2 minute offense spiked the ball from under center as well. Both of these show some different actions and requirements of playing from the position, and Lock was comfortable before even entering the NFL doing so. I have other concerns for Lock which are much more integral than this non-issue of taking snaps from under center.

  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENVERSB50CHAMP View Post
    My only fear with taking a QB that has had no experience running an offense under center is that you will get another Paxton Lynch... Some one who only threw from the Shotgun supposedly had a Big Arm however when you draft a QB that high yes #10 is high you expect that QB to be your Savior and when you get him into camp and you see that all he does is struggle from the center position then you have repeated the same disaster all over again ! You know I was and I am still super High on Nick Mullens and one thing I saw from Nick is that he could make all the throws from Under Center and in the Shot Gun and Truth be told if you are going to use PAP the right way it has to be done under center. Maybe Rick can somehow get Nick to come on over to Denver !
    I have now watched over an hour of plays of Mullens while at So Miss some were highlights most of it was playing in games not specifically highlights. I saw one play that he was under center and it was a PAP that was completed. None of his highlights were under center. Maybe this is an indication that Scangarello can develop QBs to play under center well, considering SF ran more than half from under center... looks like a positive thing no matter what QB they may draft?

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