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  1. #1
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    Elway is the man.

    I just finished watching this Chris Simms interview on picking Drew Lock (good listen for anyone interested). But what came up in the conversation was how Elway is getting crucified way too much for not getting a QB since Peyton.



    I agree completely with him. For everyone who wants us to bat 1000 in picking QB's just look at the overall statistics of Qb's picked to ratio of them succeeding. It's mind blowing low (if someone has that stat cp to you if posted).

    What Elway has shown is he doesn't die by his mistakes. He cuts the cord and continues searching for the players, coaches and personnel that will lead us to championships. Elway is going up against all kinds of adversity every year as the league changes and I believe he is doing a brilliant job in adapting. Whether it be Vance, Paxton, poor drafts or Case - Elway willingly learns from his mistakes. He doesn't go all Cutler and mope with his head down. Each poor decision Elway makes fires him up more! The same Elway as a player who threw his fare share of interceptions, would almost always atone for his mistakes when it mattered come crunch time.

    My Denver Broncos brothers and sisters. It's crunch time for Elway the GM. He loves his comebacks. I believe he just threw a TD bomb in hiring Vic Fangio and his staff to get us back in the game and can't wait to see how all this finishes over the next couple of years.
    Last edited by MarshallMoss; 04-30-2019 at 07:16 PM.
    How did I get so lucky at 8 years old to pick the Broncos as my favourite NFL team and 35 years later have them be the most successful winning franchise since I picked them

  2. #2
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    Elway in his drafts (excluding this year and last year) only has the following guys still on our team who HE DRAFTED:

    - G.Bolles, LT(who has got to be on thin ice)
    - D.Booker, RB
    - A.Gotsis, DE
    - D.Wolfe, DE
    - J.Heuerman, TE
    - A. Jonovitch
    - B.Langley (might not be here after PS etc.)
    - C.McGovern
    - W.Parks
    - J.Simmons

    Nearly ALL of them left at least are defensive players. Nearly ALL of our top lineman, WRs and or RBs either came form the two most recent drafts OR other teams. Furthermore our team opted to stick with Trevor S. even after he struggled mightily at the back-end of the 2016 season for the 2017 season. Our QB's as of late have NOT been great:
    - Brock
    - Trevor
    - Zac
    - Paxton
    - Case

    Although my issues with Elway are not just who is left or why we've done things. It is even deeper than that. For example Bolles is not the best OT from his draft class yet we picked him 1st out of all of them. We have seen a thinning of CBs on our roster and seemingly not back-filled any of them....More over if I touch on the Qbs again we are seemingly chasing the same elusive prospect. A big armed tall pocket passer. Which is great....if we had a top OL or at least a truly respectable one. Running the ball is one thing but passing is another. Our line was unable to perform when passing....these are all things which fall on Elway and the others who were evaluating talent.

    If we keep trying to do the same thing over and over again...and it doesn't work then we need to adapt and change....not just players but TYPES of players. IMO - it has taken Elway too long to adapt and even now he is showing that he hasn't fully bought into adapting fully.
    Last edited by Rich_C; 04-30-2019 at 01:34 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_C View Post
    Elway in his drafts (excluding this year and last year) only has the following guys still on our team who HE DRAFTED:

    - G.Bolles, LT(who has got to be on thin ice)
    - D.Booker, RB
    - A.Gotsis, DE
    - D.Wolfe, DE
    - J.Heuerman, TE
    - A. Jonovitch
    - B.Langley (might not be here after PS etc.)
    - C.McGovern
    - W.Parks
    - J.Simmons

    Nearly ALL of them left at least are defensive players. Nearly ALL of our top lineman, WRs and or RBs either came form the two most recent drafts OR other teams. Furthermore our team opted to stick with Trevor S. even after he struggled mightily at the back-end of the 2016 season for the 2017 season. Our QB's as of late have NOT been great:
    - Brock
    - Trevor
    - Zac
    - Paxton
    - Case

    Although my issues with Elway are not just who is left or why we've done things. It is even deeper than that. For example Bolles is not the best OT from his draft class yet we picked him 1st out of all of them. We have seen a thinning of CBs on our roster and seemingly not back-filled any of them....More over if I touch on the Qbs again we are seemingly chasing the same elusive prospect. A big armed tall pocket passer. Which is great....if we had a top OL or at least a truly respectable one. Running the ball is one thing but passing is another. Our line was unable to perform when passing....these are all things which fall on Elway and the others who were evaluating talent.

    If we keep trying to do the same thing over and over again...and it doesn't work then we need to adapt and change....not just players but TYPES of players. IMO - it has taken Elway too long to adapt and even now he is showing that he hasn't fully bought into adapting fully.
    What if I told you this ratio of drafted players still on the team is pretty decent? What if i told you his free agency and ability to navigate the cap has also been really good? What if I told you his ability to recognize a mistake and move on quickly is invaluable? What if i told you John is also the best at turning undrafted players into something? There's far more to evaluating a GM than just draft picks.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaltySnipes View Post
    What if I told you this ratio of drafted players still on the team is pretty decent? What if i told you his free agency and ability to navigate the cap has also been really good? What if I told you his ability to recognize a mistake and move on quickly is invaluable? What if i told you John is also the best at turning undrafted players into something? There's far more to evaluating a GM than just draft picks.
    Amen to all those points. I don't think there is too many GM's that would have let go of a coach that brought them to a Superbowl that same year. Elway has the moxie you need to be a long term successful franchise. There is only 2 or 3 teams that have been more successful as the Broncos for the last 30 years. Elway has been a major part in all 30 years. He knows what it takes and the competitor in him will never stop until he achieves it.

    Rich_C:

    Who else would you rather run our team? Better question would be if you could trade Elway the executive, who would it be for?
    How did I get so lucky at 8 years old to pick the Broncos as my favourite NFL team and 35 years later have them be the most successful winning franchise since I picked them

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_C View Post
    Elway in his drafts (excluding this year and last year) only has the following guys still on our team who HE DRAFTED:

    - G.Bolles, LT(who has got to be on thin ice)
    - D.Booker, RB
    - A.Gotsis, DE
    - D.Wolfe, DE
    - J.Heuerman, TE
    - A. Jonovitch
    - B.Langley (might not be here after PS etc.)
    - C.McGovern
    - W.Parks
    - J.Simmons

    Nearly ALL of them left at least are defensive players. Nearly ALL of our top lineman, WRs and or RBs either came form the two most recent drafts OR other teams. Furthermore our team opted to stick with Trevor S. even after he struggled mightily at the back-end of the 2016 season for the 2017 season. Our QB's as of late have NOT been great:
    - Brock
    - Trevor
    - Zac
    - Paxton
    - Case

    Although my issues with Elway are not just who is left or why we've done things. It is even deeper than that. For example Bolles is not the best OT from his draft class yet we picked him 1st out of all of them. We have seen a thinning of CBs on our roster and seemingly not back-filled any of them....More over if I touch on the Qbs again we are seemingly chasing the same elusive prospect. A big armed tall pocket passer. Which is great....if we had a top OL or at least a truly respectable one. Running the ball is one thing but passing is another. Our line was unable to perform when passing....these are all things which fall on Elway and the others who were evaluating talent.

    If we keep trying to do the same thing over and over again...and it doesn't work then we need to adapt and change....not just players but TYPES of players. IMO - it has taken Elway too long to adapt and even now he is showing that he hasn't fully bought into adapting fully.
    I am not sure the whole roster thing is as much an issue as some want or perceive it to be. The end goal is signing talent either through the draft, trade, or FA. We've had bad drafts recently but not so unusual compared to the entire league. Head-scratching picks? Sure Bolles vs. Ramczyk is a great example. You mention the thinning DB corps which is a valid point but it isn't as if there aren't other things at play, head coaching change, age, balancing the cap. All those factor in when trying to sign and/or maintain maintain the talent the team has. Overall I agree we can do better.

    But to the point of roster turnover, it happens. I remember an article some years back than mentioned in the span of 3 or 4 seasons (early 2010's) the Bengals had over 20 players still on the roster. In that span of time the best they could manage was losing in the Wild card round of the playoffs.

    Another team with a high turnover comes to mind... the Patriots.

    Ultimately the thought of not letting past mistakes define him, I think, is a good practice. He's tried (clearly ) what doesn't work, at time been forced or felt cornered to reach for what doesn't work, but is not willing to be stubborn and not learn from those mistakes. Sounds reasonable and if we look at the most recent two drafts it would appear we could be on the right path where that is concerned. If true, I can't find fault with that.

    What I can find fault with is "I truly think we’ve got a guy [Flacco] coming into his prime." Seriously? I'm all for giving Flacco the best opportunity to succeed but a few days at a mini-camp and we have a rejuvenated Flacco who isn't just playing well or great but coming in to his prime? John, John, John...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_C View Post
    Elway in his drafts (excluding this year and last year) only has the following guys still on our team who HE DRAFTED:

    - G.Bolles, LT(who has got to be on thin ice)
    - D.Booker, RB
    - A.Gotsis, DE
    - D.Wolfe, DE
    - J.Heuerman, TE
    - A. Jonovitch
    - B.Langley (might not be here after PS etc.)
    - C.McGovern
    - W.Parks
    - J.Simmons

    Nearly ALL of them left at least are defensive players. Nearly ALL of our top lineman, WRs and or RBs either came form the two most recent drafts OR other teams. Furthermore our team opted to stick with Trevor S. even after he struggled mightily at the back-end of the 2016 season for the 2017 season. Our QB's as of late have NOT been great:
    - Brock
    - Trevor
    - Zac
    - Paxton
    - Case

    Although my issues with Elway are not just who is left or why we've done things. It is even deeper than that. For example Bolles is not the best OT from his draft class yet we picked him 1st out of all of them. We have seen a thinning of CBs on our roster and seemingly not back-filled any of them....More over if I touch on the Qbs again we are seemingly chasing the same elusive prospect. A big armed tall pocket passer. Which is great....if we had a top OL or at least a truly respectable one. Running the ball is one thing but passing is another. Our line was unable to perform when passing....these are all things which fall on Elway and the others who were evaluating talent.

    If we keep trying to do the same thing over and over again...and it doesn't work then we need to adapt and change....not just players but TYPES of players. IMO - it has taken Elway too long to adapt and even now he is showing that he hasn't fully bought into adapting fully.
    Elway put us in the super bowl, then went and won it.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_C View Post
    Elway in his drafts (excluding this year and last year) only has the following guys still on our team who HE DRAFTED:

    - G.Bolles, LT(who has got to be on thin ice)
    - D.Booker, RB
    - A.Gotsis, DE
    - D.Wolfe, DE
    - J.Heuerman, TE
    - A. Jonovitch
    - B.Langley (might not be here after PS etc.)
    - C.McGovern
    - W.Parks
    - J.Simmons

    Nearly ALL of them left at least are defensive players. Nearly ALL of our top lineman, WRs and or RBs either came form the two most recent drafts OR other teams. Furthermore our team opted to stick with Trevor S. even after he struggled mightily at the back-end of the 2016 season for the 2017 season. Our QB's as of late have NOT been great:
    - Brock
    - Trevor
    - Zac
    - Paxton
    - Case

    Although my issues with Elway are not just who is left or why we've done things. It is even deeper than that. For example Bolles is not the best OT from his draft class yet we picked him 1st out of all of them. We have seen a thinning of CBs on our roster and seemingly not back-filled any of them....More over if I touch on the Qbs again we are seemingly chasing the same elusive prospect. A big armed tall pocket passer. Which is great....if we had a top OL or at least a truly respectable one. Running the ball is one thing but passing is another. Our line was unable to perform when passing....these are all things which fall on Elway and the others who were evaluating talent.

    If we keep trying to do the same thing over and over again...and it doesn't work then we need to adapt and change....not just players but TYPES of players. IMO - it has taken Elway too long to adapt and even now he is showing that he hasn't fully bought into adapting fully.
    Elway's done a lot better at drafting than you give him credit for and while we don't have a lot of those picks on the team, they are still in the league.

    Made this as a rebuttal for Baph, but sure, we'll throw it out again.

    https://forums.denverbroncos.com/sho...37#post5727537

    Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
    I'm gonna go into more depth than a smack thread deserves here. Comparing one team that drafts well (New England) One that hasn't (The Browns) and our two teams. For the purposes of this thread, "Still in the league" means that as of today, they are on a current NFL roster.

    Code:
    Team	Still on the team-Still in the League-Out of the NFL-Total Drafted
    2011				
    Broncos   	1	2	7	9
    Chargers	1	3	5	8
    Patriots	0	4	5	9
    Browns	        0	4	4	8
    We tie with the Chargers as the only team to still retain any picks from 2012. Roughly 11% of our picks are still on the team. 22% still in the league. Chargers are 12% and 37% respectively. New England 0% and 44%, browns are 0% and 50%.

    Code:
    Team	Still on the team	Still in the League	Out of the NFL	Total Drafted
    2012				
    Broncos	        1	4	3	7
    Chargers	1	2	5	7
    Patriots	2	4	3	7
    Browns	        0	4	7	11
    Year two. This was actually a really strong draft class for the Broncos. We still only retained one, but that's pretty much the average. For us, from this class 14% are still on the team 57% are still in the league. For the Chargers 14% are still on the team 28% still in the league. Patriots have 28% still on their team and 57% still in the league.

    Code:
    Team	Still on the team	Still in the League	Out of the NFL	Total Drafted
    2013				
    Broncos	        0	4	3	7
    Chargers	1	3	4	7
    Patriots	1	3	4	7
    Browns	        0	2	3	5
    2013 was another year with some players that managed to stick around the league for Denver. 0% still on the team, but 57% still on an NFL roster. For Chargers 14% still on the team, 42% still in the league. Patriots 14% still on the team, 42% still in the league. The browns have 0 on the team 40% still on the team.

    Will continue in another post.


  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
    Part 3
    Code:
    Team	Still on the Team	Still in the League	Out of the NFL	Total Drafted
    2016				
    Broncos	        6	8	0	8
    Chargers	5	5	3	8
    Patriots 	6	8	1	9
    Browns	        6	9	5	14
    Of the Broncos 8 2016 picks, 75% stuck around. All are still on a roster. For the chargers (I'll grant you, of the 3, some might be on IR, had a hard time finding right info) 62% still on the roster and in the league. The other 3 have not played a down in preseason or regular since since 2016. Patriots 66% still on the roster 88% still in the league. The browns 42% still on the roster 64% in the league.

    Code:
    Team	Still on the Team	Still in the League	Out of the NFL	Total Drafted
    2017				
    Broncos	        7	8	0	8
    Chargers	7	7	0	7
    Patriots 	2	4	0	4
    Browns	        6	7	3	10
    Now onto the topic of the thread. It's hard to judge a class one year out. My method I used is If they are on the practice squad for the team, they are still on the team as they still have a chance to get promoted within this year. If they are not on an active roster or practice squad, they will fall under the out of the league category, but they still can make an NFL comeback so it's not truly "out of the league"


    To finish it up. Since Elway's been here
    Code:
    Team	Still on the Team	Still in the League	Out of the NFL	Total Drafted
    Broncos	        18	38	16	54
    Chargers	21	27	21	48
    Patriots	18	33	15	56
    Browns	        16	39	27	66
    33% of our picks are still on the roster. 70% are still in the NFL. The chargers still have 43% on their roster, but only 56% are still in the NFL. The patriots have 32% of the players on their roster, 59% still in the NFL. The browns have 24% on their roster and 59% are still in the NFL.

    So again. We're doing fine. We do struggle keeping players on the Roster, but it's not due to making the wrong pick. If 70% of Elway's picks are still on an NFL team, he's not doing terrible. The chargers do a lot better job of keeping their players on their team, but a larger percentage of their draft picks don't make it.

    Neither of our teams draft bad, despite the attempt at smack you tried in this thread.
    This was part 3. This is just a copy and paste of what was discussed in that thread, but it basically shows in detail why the nonsense talk of how bad Elway's drafting abilities are is overblown by many fans.


  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
    This was part 3. This is just a copy and paste of what was discussed in that thread, but it basically shows in detail why the nonsense talk of how bad Elway's drafting abilities are is overblown by many fans.
    Well just because these guys are still in the league does not mean that we drafted well. For example if a guy is better fit for a Zone scheme and we run power and we cut him then I'd say we didn't draft well. After all we knew the scheme we were going to run. I also think it is important to look at some of the guys we picked in the 2nd rounds and 3rd rounds who ARE with other teams or out of the league. Looking on my other comment why are they not with us? Why did we not get them playing better for us to at least have modest trade value?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rastic View Post
    I am not sure the whole roster thing is as much an issue as some want or perceive it to be. The end goal is signing talent either through the draft, trade, or FA. We've had bad drafts recently but not so unusual compared to the entire league. Head-scratching picks? Sure Bolles vs. Ramczyk is a great example. You mention the thinning DB corps which is a valid point but it isn't as if there aren't other things at play, head coaching change, age, balancing the cap. All those factor in when trying to sign and/or maintain maintain the talent the team has. Overall I agree we can do better.

    But to the point of roster turnover, it happens. I remember an article some years back than mentioned in the span of 3 or 4 seasons (early 2010's) the Bengals had over 20 players still on the roster. In that span of time the best they could manage was losing in the Wild card round of the playoffs.

    Another team with a high turnover comes to mind... the Patriots.

    Ultimately the thought of not letting past mistakes define him, I think, is a good practice. He's tried (clearly ) what doesn't work, at time been forced or felt cornered to reach for what doesn't work, but is not willing to be stubborn and not learn from those mistakes. Sounds reasonable and if we look at the most recent two drafts it would appear we could be on the right path where that is concerned. If true, I can't find fault with that.

    What I can find fault with is "I truly think we’ve got a guy [Flacco] coming into his prime." Seriously? I'm all for giving Flacco the best opportunity to succeed but a few days at a mini-camp and we have a rejuvenated Flacco who isn't just playing well or great but coming in to his prime? John, John, John...
    Well, in all fairness John knows a big armed quarterback who had his best years between ages 35-38.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rastic View Post

    What I can find fault with is "I truly think we’ve got a guy [Flacco] coming into his prime." Seriously? I'm all for giving Flacco the best opportunity to succeed but a few days at a mini-camp and we have a rejuvenated Flacco who isn't just playing well or great but coming in to his prime? John, John, John...
    I wouldn't put too much stock into that. Elway knows Flacco is a bad QB on his last legs. Everyone around the league can see that fact. He had to say something like what he did out of respect to Flacco and to give some legitimacy to the move in the eyes of the players on the team.

    I put the over/under on Flacco's games started in a Broncos uniform at 13. Whether it be due to injury or his own poor play, Flacco is not here for long. We must all hope Lock works out the way I believe he can, his time will come soon.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rastic View Post
    What I can find fault with is "I truly think we’ve got a guy [Flacco] coming into his prime." Seriously? I'm all for giving Flacco the best opportunity to succeed but a few days at a mini-camp and we have a rejuvenated Flacco who isn't just playing well or great but coming in to his prime? John, John, John...
    When do you think Elway's prime was, or when he thinks it was?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    When do you think Elway's prime was, or when he thinks it was?
    He won at the tail end of his career, manning too.... so maybe in his prime, is a personal experience. Flacco is old and brittle, but knows the game well enough to let the studs win while he supports...

    Maybe?
    http://s7.postimg.org/hjr8fcmaz/EM2.jpg

    Adopted Bronco: Andy Janovich

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    When do you think Elway's prime was, or when he thinks it was?
    Elways Prime was from 93-97 but one could argue 85-90 he was a young stud just chucking the ball all over the place.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rst08tierney View Post
    elways prime was from 93-97 but one could argue 85-90 he was a young stud just chucking the ball all over the place.
    1987 nfl mvp

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