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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tbrendal View Post
    John Elway puts his pants on the same way you and I and everyone else on this board does. What he has accomplished as a Denver Bronco is unparalleled and we are lucky to have him. To think that he should be ousted is totally illogical thinking.

    John Elway is the best GM the Bronco's have ever had, and to have anybody else would be a total disgrace. Also SHAME ON YOU! if you really think he has not done is utter best to make the Bronco's the best team possible! I say if you don't like it go find another team.......

    As the original poster said John Elway IS the man!!!!

    GO BRONCO"S!!!
    There is a stark difference between being hyper critical of decisions John has made and thinking that he is not doing his best. The two are not linked...at least for me.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_C View Post
    There is a stark difference between being hyper critical of decisions John has made and thinking that he is not doing his best. The two are not linked...at least for me.
    If he is not doing his best he should save us the time of asking for his resignation and leave. Anybody in that position should be doing their absolute best, even if their best is sub-par. Perhaps that is what you meant.

    I think Elway has done his best, at least from my observations from the comfort of my couch, but there have been decisions easy to criticize. Still, hardly any GMs make few mistakes, that doesn't justify or excuse them when they do happen, but it's like family, it's easy to see the faults in those you are close with - or in this case - closely follow. These last two seasons drafts and personnel changes are a sign that lessons are being learned, for me at least.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_C View Post
    Elway in his drafts (excluding this year and last year) only has the following guys still on our team who HE DRAFTED:

    - G.Bolles, LT(who has got to be on thin ice)
    - D.Booker, RB
    - A.Gotsis, DE
    - D.Wolfe, DE
    - J.Heuerman, TE
    - A. Jonovitch
    - B.Langley (might not be here after PS etc.)
    - C.McGovern
    - W.Parks
    - J.Simmons

    Nearly ALL of them left at least are defensive players. Nearly ALL of our top lineman, WRs and or RBs either came form the two most recent drafts OR other teams. Furthermore our team opted to stick with Trevor S. even after he struggled mightily at the back-end of the 2016 season for the 2017 season. Our QB's as of late have NOT been great:
    - Brock
    - Trevor
    - Zac
    - Paxton
    - Case

    Although my issues with Elway are not just who is left or why we've done things. It is even deeper than that. For example Bolles is not the best OT from his draft class yet we picked him 1st out of all of them. We have seen a thinning of CBs on our roster and seemingly not back-filled any of them....More over if I touch on the Qbs again we are seemingly chasing the same elusive prospect. A big armed tall pocket passer. Which is great....if we had a top OL or at least a truly respectable one. Running the ball is one thing but passing is another. Our line was unable to perform when passing....these are all things which fall on Elway and the others who were evaluating talent.

    If we keep trying to do the same thing over and over again...and it doesn't work then we need to adapt and change....not just players but TYPES of players. IMO - it has taken Elway too long to adapt and even now he is showing that he hasn't fully bought into adapting fully.
    Elway's done a lot better at drafting than you give him credit for and while we don't have a lot of those picks on the team, they are still in the league.

    Made this as a rebuttal for Baph, but sure, we'll throw it out again.

    https://forums.denverbroncos.com/sho...37#post5727537

    Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
    I'm gonna go into more depth than a smack thread deserves here. Comparing one team that drafts well (New England) One that hasn't (The Browns) and our two teams. For the purposes of this thread, "Still in the league" means that as of today, they are on a current NFL roster.

    Code:
    Team	Still on the team-Still in the League-Out of the NFL-Total Drafted
    2011				
    Broncos   	1	2	7	9
    Chargers	1	3	5	8
    Patriots	0	4	5	9
    Browns	        0	4	4	8
    We tie with the Chargers as the only team to still retain any picks from 2012. Roughly 11% of our picks are still on the team. 22% still in the league. Chargers are 12% and 37% respectively. New England 0% and 44%, browns are 0% and 50%.

    Code:
    Team	Still on the team	Still in the League	Out of the NFL	Total Drafted
    2012				
    Broncos	        1	4	3	7
    Chargers	1	2	5	7
    Patriots	2	4	3	7
    Browns	        0	4	7	11
    Year two. This was actually a really strong draft class for the Broncos. We still only retained one, but that's pretty much the average. For us, from this class 14% are still on the team 57% are still in the league. For the Chargers 14% are still on the team 28% still in the league. Patriots have 28% still on their team and 57% still in the league.

    Code:
    Team	Still on the team	Still in the League	Out of the NFL	Total Drafted
    2013				
    Broncos	        0	4	3	7
    Chargers	1	3	4	7
    Patriots	1	3	4	7
    Browns	        0	2	3	5
    2013 was another year with some players that managed to stick around the league for Denver. 0% still on the team, but 57% still on an NFL roster. For Chargers 14% still on the team, 42% still in the league. Patriots 14% still on the team, 42% still in the league. The browns have 0 on the team 40% still on the team.

    Will continue in another post.


  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
    Part 2
    Code:
    Team	Still on the team	Still in the League	Out of the NFL	Total Drafted
    2014				
    Broncos	        2	4	2	6
    Chargers	1	2	4	6
    Patriots	1	6	3	9
    Browns	        2	4	2	6
    This was an odd rarity, a good draft for the Browns. For the Browns and Broncos 33% of the players are still on the team, 66% still in the league. For the chargers, 16% are still on the team 33% still in the NFL. For the patriots 11% still on the team 66% still in the league.

    Code:
    Team	Still on the team	Still in the League	Out of the NFL	Total Drafted
    2015
    Broncos	        3	8	1	9
    Chargers	5	5	0	5
    Patriots	6	8	3	11
    Browns	        2	9	3	12
    I'll leave it at here for now because I have to get back to work. I'll pick up with 2016 and 2017 this afternoon. 33% of this class is still on the roster. 88% still in the league. I will actually commend the Chargers on this draft with a 100% stick rate. Not a bad draft. The patriots kept 54% of this draft class and 75% are still in the league. The browns kept 16% of this draft class and 75% still in the league.

    For that period,

    Code:
    Team	Still on the team	Still in the League	Out of the NFL	Total Drafted
    Broncos	        7	22	16	38
    Chargers	9	15	18	33
    Patriots	9	25	18	43
    Browns	        4	23	19	42
    The Broncos had 18% of their prospects stay with the team 57% are still in the league. The Chargers had 27% stick with the team and 45% still in the NFL. The patriots kept 20% of their players and 58% are still in the league. Finally, the browns kept 9% of their players (abysmal) 54% are still in the league.

    What this tells me. We need to get better at retaining our picks. We draft just as well as the average (and we'll revisit these numbers once they are complete over the full period from 2011-2017 draft classes) On average from those 4 teams, about 50% of all players are out of the NFL over that period of time. We're in the same range as everyone, we need to retain more talent that we draft. The drafting talent isn't the issue.

    At the same time, we've been really good in FA. So if you have a talented FA player, you don't just cut him in favor of a lesser draft pick because you drafted one and not the other. You keep the better player.

    Part 2 of my original response


  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
    Part 3
    Code:
    Team	Still on the Team	Still in the League	Out of the NFL	Total Drafted
    2016				
    Broncos	        6	8	0	8
    Chargers	5	5	3	8
    Patriots 	6	8	1	9
    Browns	        6	9	5	14
    Of the Broncos 8 2016 picks, 75% stuck around. All are still on a roster. For the chargers (I'll grant you, of the 3, some might be on IR, had a hard time finding right info) 62% still on the roster and in the league. The other 3 have not played a down in preseason or regular since since 2016. Patriots 66% still on the roster 88% still in the league. The browns 42% still on the roster 64% in the league.

    Code:
    Team	Still on the Team	Still in the League	Out of the NFL	Total Drafted
    2017				
    Broncos	        7	8	0	8
    Chargers	7	7	0	7
    Patriots 	2	4	0	4
    Browns	        6	7	3	10
    Now onto the topic of the thread. It's hard to judge a class one year out. My method I used is If they are on the practice squad for the team, they are still on the team as they still have a chance to get promoted within this year. If they are not on an active roster or practice squad, they will fall under the out of the league category, but they still can make an NFL comeback so it's not truly "out of the league"


    To finish it up. Since Elway's been here
    Code:
    Team	Still on the Team	Still in the League	Out of the NFL	Total Drafted
    Broncos	        18	38	16	54
    Chargers	21	27	21	48
    Patriots	18	33	15	56
    Browns	        16	39	27	66
    33% of our picks are still on the roster. 70% are still in the NFL. The chargers still have 43% on their roster, but only 56% are still in the NFL. The patriots have 32% of the players on their roster, 59% still in the NFL. The browns have 24% on their roster and 59% are still in the NFL.

    So again. We're doing fine. We do struggle keeping players on the Roster, but it's not due to making the wrong pick. If 70% of Elway's picks are still on an NFL team, he's not doing terrible. The chargers do a lot better job of keeping their players on their team, but a larger percentage of their draft picks don't make it.

    Neither of our teams draft bad, despite the attempt at smack you tried in this thread.
    This was part 3. This is just a copy and paste of what was discussed in that thread, but it basically shows in detail why the nonsense talk of how bad Elway's drafting abilities are is overblown by many fans.


  6. #51
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    I have been an Elway fan for the long run, and I have praised him as a GM as well as player. When he took over, I believe he assessed the situation, and made many strong decisions to get us where we needed to be. The Manning signing was very exciting, and the next few years included many quality FA signings. And then, even as Manning faded, Elway had put together such a strong group that we finally won our 3rd SB, while actually getting 2 kicks at it....and during the timeframe we were treated to amazing football, many records broken, and a huge sense of pride. The Broncos were the real deal, and everyone was watching.

    However I will admit that nearing the end of that amazing journey, some aspects of the team were lacking, and were not cared for as I believe they should have been. Not saying anything new....but the QB and Oline positions were not managed properly. And yes you can win with a great D, but you can't win a lot without a decent QB and Oline. Yet we faltered for several years. And these last 2 years have been disappointing.

    But this draft looks promising so far, and the coaching changes look solid. It has given me a lift, as I believe we might be back on the road to playoff contention. I am not keen on the Flacco acquisition, just as I wasn't with Case last year. But I get a sense of hope, with Lock. And I am good with Fant and Risner. And yes, FA signings may pay off in a very positive way. So yah, I am feeling better about Big John these days. I can see a plan shaping nicely.

    Of course there are no guarantees....we need to understand our Dback situation. It wasn't long ago when we had CHJ, Talib and Roby roaming the backfield. Lets hope when the smoke clears, we are pretty much intact again. Lets also see what Flacco has left, and for me more important, what Lock will bring. And sure, I wanted a quality ILB, but there is some serious merit having outstanding D coaching, to maximize the group we have.


    Yah....John is in my good books. He slipped a bit since the SB, but no one's perfect. But to be honest, I need to see a few games before I am feeling really good. As for now....it's looking brighter!!

  7. #52
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    I realize that it might take a few years to really see if these last 2 draft classes are great but Elway seems to have scored really well these last 2 years. Keenum was a calculated risk and he didn't work out. Elway moved on quickly instead of posturing. Flacco may not be an amazing upgrade but I think a small upgrade and probably a better contract situation too. Fant, Lock, Risner, and arguably Jones were 1st round talents and we only picked once in the first round.

    Our off-season acquisitions were solid and should address some weaknesses we had. I still wish we would have kept Wade Phillips and probably Malik Jackson, but seriously no one is perfect. Elway has brought 2 Super Bowl appearances, and a championship, in last 5 years besides NE no one else has done that.

  8. #53
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    We are lucky to have John. It baffles my mind when I here our fan base calling for his head.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    When Von Miller was drafted in 2011, there were raging arguments on this message board between those who thought it was a good pick and those who thought Elway was an idiot. It was such a fierce disagreement that some members were permanently banned, as I recall. Hindsight has shown who overreacted. Moderation in one's views and how to express them is underrated.
    It was far from an obvious choice too. Many experts had us taking Peterson or Nick Fairly if I recall correctly.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by MH Stampede View Post
    It was far from an obvious choice too. Many experts had us taking Peterson or Nick Fairly if I recall correctly.
    Nick Fairly was the trade back option for us...Peterson and Dareus were the other main choices for us. Fairley, I believe, lasted 6 years and Darues is bouncing around the league. I for one wanted Peterson at the time as I felt we had Champ who would pass the baton, but Von was my next choice. Could not be happier that we have Von.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
    This was part 3. This is just a copy and paste of what was discussed in that thread, but it basically shows in detail why the nonsense talk of how bad Elway's drafting abilities are is overblown by many fans.
    Well just because these guys are still in the league does not mean that we drafted well. For example if a guy is better fit for a Zone scheme and we run power and we cut him then I'd say we didn't draft well. After all we knew the scheme we were going to run. I also think it is important to look at some of the guys we picked in the 2nd rounds and 3rd rounds who ARE with other teams or out of the league. Looking on my other comment why are they not with us? Why did we not get them playing better for us to at least have modest trade value?

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