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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    This is off topic from all the defensive coordinator talk.

    Last night Tommy Nalen and Dmac were complaining about how a return of Mike Shanahan would only hurt Rich Scangarellos progress as a Coordinator and he doesn’t need anyone looking over his shoulder.

    Wow, I didn’t realize this was more about his growth than it is about a franchise getting back to their winning ways.

    I don’t care if Rich Scangarello doesn’t want somebody looking over his shoulder.

    I don’t care if people are going to say things like “there’s too many chiefs and not enough Indians”.

    We have two stars in this team that are on the same level as Lawrence Taylor and Darrell Green. However they are pretty much being wasted while Elway experiments with these offensive coordinators.

    Although I support him, Rich isn’t a proven guy, in fact we know nothing about him.

    Mike Shanahan is on the level of Bill Walsh and Bill Belichick? As Denver Broncos fan we would all agree with this because of everything that he has done for the organization and his longevity with the team.

    Hiwever the national consensus is going to say that he is on par with the Jimmy Johnson’s And Pete Carroll’s of the league.
    Shanahan in my opinion is far better than that and we all know it but the national audience does not.

    Mike needs to get back into the game to cement his true legacy and win another title or two. The only logical place for him to do so, would be here in Denver right now.

    We need that strong offense to get Bin Miller, CHJ and Derek Wolfe another Super Bowl or two before they retire.

    I fully support John but I strongly feel that Rich could use Mikes help. Imagine if Mike was working with the Rams last season. McVay certainly wouldn’t had been a loud to blow the play calling in the Super Bowl like he did.
    WOW, I don't think I could disagree any more with everything in a Post than I disagree with this. Mike Shanahan's career is over. And it's been over for a long, long time. If it wasn't, he would be Coaching somewhere in the NFL. Nobody is offering him a job, INCLUDING THE DENVER BRONCOS. Shanahan was invited to one practice. The entire premise of this Post is that he will be looking over Scangarello's shoulder. That isn't happening now, and it isn't going to happen in the future. Shanahan's legacy has been written.

    With that being said, the entire Broncos Coaching Staff is an experiment. Vic Fangio has NEVER been a head coach in the NFL. Scangarello has never been an OC in the NFL, and has never called the plays in an NFL game. I'm "hoping" for a jump in performance similar to what we got with John Fox after little josh mcdaniels was canned for Cheating. We will know soon enough.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Then if we go through the wasted draft picks and poor defensive signings. It's no secret that Shanahan is an excellent offensive mind, great offensive evaluator but really struggles identifying Defensive players and Coordinators.
    This is the real hill he died on, IMO. So many busts that it left the defensive roster in talentless shambles by the time he was fired. Whatever Slowik truly was, he certainly wasn't given the players to make progress. I'll never forget Manuel and McCree, the worst tandem of utterly clueless safeties I've ever seen on the field, rejects from six other teams each!

    As for the DC carousel, a lot of that had to do with personality conflicts as Robinson and Coyer were reasonably decent considering what they were given. I suspect that Slowik was more compliant to micromanagement which is why Shanahan wished to keep him.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Rod- View Post
    The return of Mike Shanahan was one of the best things in camp so far. He should always be welcomed in that building. I don't think he will ever return to the NFL full time unless someone gives him the HC job with GM powers. He won't settle for an OC job. However, he could have a role as a consultant for Scangarello and show up to share some ideas occasionally like DeMarcus Ware did with the edge rushers last season.
    That would be ideal. A very minor role but enough to help a rookie OC who may have questions sometimes, or Mike can offer helpful suggestions if he sees that something isn't working very well.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  4. #34
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    One visit to Dove Valley and ^^^^^^^ This (the whole thread.)

    Maybe it's too soon...
    [

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taos_Broncomaniac View Post
    One visit to Dove Valley and ^^^^^^^ This (the whole thread.)

    Maybe it's too soon...
    Makes for conversation while we wait for the season to get here.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroncoFanDK View Post
    It is highly debatable if Wink was as bad as you state. While McDaniels had a good draft eye for offensive talent, and not horrible on defensive ditto, we had one elite pass rusher in Doom and he was lost for the season. Slowik coached Bailey in his prime, Lynch, Doom and DJ Williams...

    Wink was given blanks to defend with and Slowik failed while bringing a machine gun to knife fight.

    Statistically, Nolans 2009 defense from week 7 and onwards did not outperform Winks 2010 unit.
    I know you love McDaniels for one draft pick, but saying he had a great eye for offensive talent is a little generous, and was more than undone by his additions via free agency, trade and the wasted defensive picks.

    As for Wink Martindale, statistically that was the worst defense Denver has ever had. They finished 32nd or 31st in just about every single major category. He was not ready to be a DC, and he struggled badly doing so. Which is why it took him 8 more years as a position coach before getting another chance.

    And of the 4 players you said Slowik had, Martindale had 3 of them, the only one he didn't have was John Lynch who was a broken down shell of himself during his time in Denver, and Martindale was given his own version of that in Brian Dawkins.

    But this is about Shanahan, so back to that...

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    Martindale has become a very good DC in the NFL. Shanahan probably thought he saw something in Slowik that he thought would allow him to be great.
    Martindale was much better last year no doubt. He wasn't ready in 2010, and that's why it took 8 years to get a second chance. He was in over his head.

    As for Slowik, he was a poor DC with the Bears, Browns and Packers (the last 2 he lasted just one year each) and somehow was chosen over a more qualified candidate they already had hired. I'm guessing what Shanahan saw was someone who would listen to him more than a Jim Bates might have.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    This is off topic from all the defensive coordinator talk.

    Last night Tommy Nalen and Dmac were complaining about how a return of Mike Shanahan would only hurt Rich Scangarellos progress as a Coordinator and he doesnít need anyone looking over his shoulder.

    Wow, I didnít realize this was more about his growth than it is about a franchise getting back to their winning ways.

    I donít care if Rich Scangarello doesnít want somebody looking over his shoulder.

    I donít care if people are going to say things like ďthereís too many chiefs and not enough IndiansĒ.

    We have two stars in this team that are on the same level as Lawrence Taylor and Darrell Green. However they are pretty much being wasted while Elway experiments with these offensive coordinators.

    Although I support him, Rich isnít a proven guy, in fact we know nothing about him.

    Mike Shanahan is on the level of Bill Walsh and Bill Belichick? As Denver Broncos fan we would all agree with this because of everything that he has done for the organization and his longevity with the team.

    Hiwever the national consensus is going to say that he is on par with the Jimmy Johnsonís And Pete Carrollís of the league.
    Shanahan in my opinion is far better than that and we all know it but the national audience does not.

    Mike needs to get back into the game to cement his true legacy and win another title or two. The only logical place for him to do so, would be here in Denver right now.

    We need that strong offense to get Bin Miller, CHJ and Derek Wolfe another Super Bowl or two before they retire.

    I fully support John but I strongly feel that Rich could use Mikes help. Imagine if Mike was working with the Rams last season. McVay certainly wouldnít had been a loud to blow the play calling in the Super Bowl like he did.
    Mike Shanahan has been a consultant with the 49ers for the last two years. I believe he actually has an office in their HQ for when he's in the area. I'm sure he would answer Scangarello's calls if he were to make them, and might give him advice (Shanahan said he knew every play call when he heard them because it's his/Kyle's offense. But I can't see him doing anything more than answering a few questions or giving a few ideas. I think anything more insightful is reserved strictly for the 49ers.

    I also can't see him coaching again unless he's the Head Coach and given full control over the roster. I think the visit to Dove Valley was just two long estranged sides finally putting their differences behind them.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Martindale was much better last year no doubt. He wasn't ready in 2010, and that's why it took 8 years to get a second chance. He was in over his head.

    As for Slowik, he was a poor DC with the Bears, Browns and Packers (the last 2 he lasted just one year each) and somehow was chosen over a more qualified candidate they already had hired. I'm guessing what Shanahan saw was someone who would listen to him more than a Jim Bates might have.
    Iím surprised Bates even got the gig at all to be honest. I felt like Shanahan was so confident in his ability to put up points that he just needed the defense to make a stop or two and bend but not break. Bates and his wide 9 defense (with poor schematic fits at the time) seemed to be a boom or bust scheme to me at the time.

    From what I remember Slowik was ultra conservative and fit what Shanahan ultimately wanted. Although I think all of Shanahanís defenses since 2000 were fairly devoid of talent constantly being patched up with band aid players like Lynch, Dawkins, the Browncos, Dre Bly, etc. Losing solid pass rushers like Reggie Hayward and Bertrand Berry and Trevor Pryce didnít help. When Al Wilson was forced to retire and Darrent Williams was murdered we lost the heart and soul of our defense. Some may disagree on how good Williams was but he brought a lot of energy to the defense that they fed off of. Wilson covered up a lot of holes for a long time and should absolutely be considered one of the greatest MLBs of all time. So I think a lot of the DC carousel can be attributed to a lack of talent on the team.
    Last edited by beastlyskronk; 07-23-2019 at 03:03 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncolee View Post
    We first have to answer the question of how good was Shanahan at hiding defensive deficiencies through offensive prowess.

    In 1996, when he had a future Hall of Famer at quarterback, the Broncos had the number one ranked run defense. How did that work out against the Jaguars in the playoffs?

    Why did Shanahan allow the defense to blitz Ben Roethlisberger in the 2005 AFCCG? The way to beat Ben that season was to force him to read the defense. A head coach has to at least be aware of the obvious things in all aspects of the game and make sure his coordinators are preparing accordingly.
    You call it hiding deficiencies....other people call it building a football team that works together.

    If you checked the rankings you would have seen he was pretty good "hiding" and pretty consistent

    That is far from the blind label you gave

    There are many reasons we lost the two games you mentioned but it seems you only want to focus on reasons that supports your opinion of Shanahan.

    Every year in the NFL there is 1 success story and 10 failure in the playoff stories. It is easy to use those examples to support many conclusions. Bottom line is out almost 300 head coaches in the Super Bowl era Shanahan is one of 32 to win a ring. He is one of 13 to win multiple Super Bowls.

    More often than not his defense was top ten in yards and/or points.

    I still do not get why people hate on Shanahan the coach because the evidence is pretty clear he was a good coach.
    Last edited by Hadez; 07-23-2019 at 06:39 PM.
    Win lose or tie Bronco fan til I die

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    I’m surprised Bates even got the gig at all to be honest. I felt like Shanahan was so confident in his ability to put up points that he just needed the defense to make a stop or two and bend but not break. Bates and his wide 9 defense (with poor schematic fits at the time) seemed to be a boom or bust scheme to me at the time.

    From what I remember Slowik was ultra conservative and fit what Shanahan ultimately wanted. Although I think all of Shanahan’s defenses since 2000 were fairly devoid of talent constantly being patched up with band aid players like Lynch, Dawkins, the Browncos, Dre Bly, etc. Losing solid pass rushers like Reggie Hayward and Bertrand Berry and Trevor Pryce didn’t help. When Al Wilson was forced to retire and Darrent Williams was murdered we lost the heart and soul of our defense. Some may disagree on how good Williams was but he brought a lot of energy to the defense that they fed off of. Wilson covered up a lot of holes for a long time and should absolutely be considered one of the greatest MLBs of all time. So I think a lot of the DC carousel can be attributed to a lack of talent on the team.
    I won't disagree with you. I think the wide 9's are great as an occasional changeup in a pass rush situation, but as a base defense you're essentially taking your ends out of any run defense against anything from tackle to tackle. and for running outside the tackle you just need kick out the end and you're golden.

    Against a wide 9 base D, you've got the o-line v tackles/backers in 5 on 5. You add in a TE or FB (or both) and now you've got a massive advantage inside.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadez View Post
    You call it hiding deficiencies....other people call it building a football team that works together.

    If you checked the rankings you would have seen he was pretty good "hiding" and pretty consistent

    That is far from the blind label you gave

    There are many reasons we lost the two games you mentioned but it seems you only want to focus on reasons that supports your opinion of Shanahan.

    Every year in the NFL there is 1 success story and 10 failure in the playoff stories. It is easy to use those examples to support many conclusions. Bottom line is out almost 300 head coaches in the Super Bowl era Shanahan is one of 32 to win a ring. He is one of 13 to win multiple Super Bowls.

    More often than not his defense was top ten in yards and/or points.

    I still do not get why people hate on Shanahan the coach because the evidence is pretty clear he was a good coach.

    I'm not sure anyone, hates Shanahan. But I think many of us believe he ran his course in Denver and his firing was just. Especially since that season the Broncos were 8-4 and needed to win one of their last 4 to win the division and they finished 8-8 out of the playoffs with the final game being on Sunday Night and resulting in a 52-21 loss. We also need to realize (as previously stated but another poster) what ultimately did in Shanahan the coach was Shanahan the GM. He was poor at drafting defensive players (too many wasted picks to go through) and he often had the team in a difficult cap situation because of bad free agent signings.

    As for his top 10 in points and/or yards, how much of it was "often" from 1999 to 2008? And are we including years like 2006 where the scoring defense finished 8th, but the team's defense cratered badly as the season went on? I am curious though, so lets take a look:

    1999: 7th in yardage, 11th in points
    2000: 24th in yardage, 23rd in points
    2001: 8th in yardage, 21st in points
    2002: 6th in yardage, 15th in points
    2003: 4th in yardage, 9th in points
    2004: 4th in yardage, 9th in points
    2005: 15th in yardage, 3rd in points
    2006: 14th in yardage, 8th in points
    2007: 19th in yardage, 28th in points
    2008: 29th in yardage, 30th in points

    So you are correct, there were some impressive defensive years in there. But what's alarming is the slide that started in mid-November 2006, and picked up steam and became an avalanche by the end of 2008. The defense was falling apart, and Shanahan declined to fire Bob Slowik, deciding that was the hill he wanted to die on.

    Also of note were the records during that time:
    1999:6-10
    2000: 11-5
    2001: 8-8
    2002: 9-7
    2003: 10-6
    2004: 10-6
    2005: 13-3
    2006: 9-7
    2007: 7-9
    2008: 8-8

    In that time they won 1 playoff game going 1-4 overall. And like the defense in 2006 the team performance as a whole fell off, they started 7-2 and finished 9-7, and of course the aforementioned 8-4 to 8-8 disaster in 2008.

    Again I don't think there's any doubt that Mike Shanahan was an excellent coach, and probably the best in Broncos history. But the franchise was 100% right to move on from him. The results they got were getting worse and he refused to fire the second worst DC in Broncos history.

  13. #43
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    Do not forget

    1998: 11th in yardage, 8th in points
    14-2; 3-0 in playoffs
    1997: 5th in yardage, 6th in points
    12-4, 4-0 in playoffs
    1996: 4th in yardage, 7th in points
    13-3. 0-1 in playoffs

    Back to the original point of the defense and Shanahan being blind to defense....10 out of 14 years his defense was top 10 in Points and/or Yards.

    umm ok...I do not think that fits the label "blind" but guess to each their own
    Win lose or tie Bronco fan til I die

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post

    Again I don't think there's any doubt that Mike Shanahan was an excellent coach, and probably the best in Broncos history. But the franchise was 100% right to move on from him. The results they got were getting worse and he refused to fire the second worst DC in Broncos history.
    this I understand. The Broncos franchise goal is to win Rings. It is why Reeves was fired after being successful but not a Champion. It is why Fox was fired even though we won a lot of games with him as head coach.

    It is also ok to say someone was good but not good enough at that time.

    Some need to put a former Bronco down in order to move on. Have had this exact discussion about other former Broncos. I know how hard it is to win a Ring in the NFL and I will stand up for those former Broncos who have won Rings with us. That is me.

    In Shanahan's case it is easy to stand up for him when it comes to coaching.
    Win lose or tie Bronco fan til I die

  15. #45
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    Shanahan did a great job in the late 90s. That does not change the fact that he wasn't getting it done when he was fired. It makes no sense to be uncritical of someone based on past performance.

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