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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdhdiggs View Post
    It's games like this that have me putting Mack above Miller even though the stats are similar. I've never seen Mack just disappear for a full game. He might not make the stat sheet but he will be in the backfield disrupting plays a least 1 in 4 snaps. Not sure I saw Von blow up a single play vs Raiders.



    Miller
    Sk Solo Ast Comb TFL QBHits
    0 4 1 5 0 0

    Mack

    Sk Solo Ast Comb TFL QBHits

    0 5 0 5 1 0

    So then were was Mack against GB?

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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipablo View Post
    Miller
    Sk Solo Ast Comb TFL QBHits
    0 4 1 5 0 0

    Mack

    Sk Solo Ast Comb TFL QBHits

    0 5 0 5 1 0

    So then were was Mack against GB?
    Forcing runs the other way, making Rodgers move from his spot, occupying double teams. Watching the two games, Mack was far more disruptive than Miller was.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdhdiggs View Post
    Forcing runs the other way, making Rodgers move from his spot, occupying double teams. Watching the two games, Mack was far more disruptive than Miller was.
    The quality of the o-lines they faced was also very different. The Packers o-line is poor, they just paid a Broncos backup $7 million per season to come in and get absolutely abused. The Raiders have a pretty decent o-line. I wouldn't say great, but even being an average line in the NFL these days is very rare.

    I'm not commenting on which player is better, or saying anything about their actual play but it's not an apples to apples comparison off of week 1.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdhdiggs View Post
    Forcing runs the other way, making Rodgers move from his spot, occupying double teams. Watching the two games, Mack was far more disruptive than Miller was.
    Von was in coverage way more then Mack, not the same. Also i saw many times where miller and chubb both got past their blockers only to find Carr's hand empty.

    I do not see how Mack was FAR more disruptive then Miller. Packers have a worse Oline, and their Offense played poorly in general. The Raiders have a good Oline and Carr played a GREAT game, yet both had 0 sacks, o qb hits.

    BCMB Div I - AB's Etsy Shop | BCMB FF Smackdown - Cold Feet

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    In another thread there was a comment, the often repeated defense of Von Miller on being double-teamed. Another forum member successfully disproved the double-team myth last season.
    When a post starts off with false conclusions there is no reason to read the rest of it

    As I recall that thread it was also discussed why interior DL get double teamed more than OLB/DE

    This was as of Nov 1 2018 for reference.

    Last edited by Hadez; 09-14-2019 at 02:22 AM.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipablo View Post
    Miller
    Sk Solo Ast Comb TFL QBHits
    0 4 1 5 0 0

    Mack

    Sk Solo Ast Comb TFL QBHits

    0 5 0 5 1 0

    So then were was Mack against GB?
    In the thread the OP mentioned I showed even the great LT...widely considered by almost everyone to be the best OLB of all time...would disappear for not just a game but for multiple games during his entire career.

    That was in a day and age when rules were more in favor of outside rushers than now.

    Not understanding OLBs can have bad games because of opposing offense game plan is just not understanding football plain and simple. The key is other players on the defense need to take advantage of these offensive schemes with their defensive coaches help.
    Win lose or tie Bronco fan til I die

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
    If Carr is getting the ball out in 2.5 seconds no one is getting to him. He did the same thing to us a few years ago. This type of play is a lot easier at home than on the road for a quarterback.

    Quit overreacting people.
    There is a reason they call the days after week 1 in the NFL Overreaction Week

    People always get too high on the things that went well and too low on the things that went bad.

    IMO this is a direct result of people having crazy ideas about what the NFL season would have been and people get mad because they did not see everything they wanted in what is essentially the first game real game action any of these players have seen in the year.
    Win lose or tie Bronco fan til I die

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    If the QB is getting the ball out at the top of a 3 step drop no edge player will get there, literally every thing has to go perfect for them to get there, time the snap perfect, bend perfectly to avoid the OT, and explode towards the QB and even then you have to hope the ball isnít already out.

    The interior rushers will have to push the oline into the QB to force him to try and buy some time. But a dline of 3 280 pound guys isnít going to push around a group of 5 330 pound guys like that. Thatís why it was a terrible idea to constantly have the CBs so far off, it might as well have been minicamp for Carr and company. No one is disrupting any timing like that, now if Harris, Wolfe, and Gotsis can get in the face of the QB then itíll disrupt that quick game and allow Chubb and Miller to attack the QB if they arenít in coverage.
    Probably one of the most repeated things I have heard about pass rush is how the back end and front end need to work together.

    Everyone in the world saw how fast our DBs ... specially Yaidom... were getting burned. Anyone yelling at the pass rush when the DBs are giving up receptions that easy is clueless about the game of football.

    It is obvious to me some have beefs from last year that they have been chomping at the bit to make points for this year.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    In another thread there was a comment, the often repeated defense of Von Miller on being double-teamed. Another forum member successfully disproved the double-team myth last season.

    Von Miller wasnít consistently double-teamed and chipped vs Raiders on Monday night. In pass protection the Raiders only double-teamed Von twice. Looking at the tape, a defensive coordinator should no longer plan help against Von (unless they have a really bad RT). The TE had an easy time blocking Von one on one.

    Even without pass plays designed for quick release, it didnít look like Von would have been a factor. His first step looked slow and effort was weak. It could be the lack of reps in preseason, but he looks out of shape and/or disinterested. He was smacked by the fullback on one play.

    Weíve seen stretches of games where Von hasnít shown up. He looked and played less than elite on Monday night. He was quite mediocre if not below average as an edge rusher. He also looked fairly weak on run defense.

    Anyway, the main point is that the constant double-teams are a myth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hadez View Post
    When a post starts off with false conclusions there is no reason to read the rest of it

    As I recall that thread it was also discussed why interior DL get double teamed more than OLB/DE

    This was as of Nov 1 2018 for reference.

    I could have been more clear with the reference to the previous thread. It was successfully proven that Von wasnít double teamed as often as fans believed.

    I think you missed the context by not reading the entire post, highlighted for you in bold.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    I could have been more clear with the reference to the previous thread. It was successfully proven that Von wasnít double teamed as often as fans believed.

    I think you missed the context by not reading the entire post, highlighted for you in bold.
    I am not sure how you define "constant double-teams" (copied and pasted from your post) but on that list 5 people in all of the NFL are double teamed more than Von Miller and most of them are interior DL where the only option is to double team.

    That shows in comparison to other OLBs he is getting consistent double teams. More double teams than almost all other OLBs in the NFL.

    Maybe you think consistent means more than 50%? OLBs do not get treated that way in the NFL....so by that definition you can say no OLB in all of the NFL gets "constant double-teams". Maybe your argument should be no OLBs in all of the NFL get "constant double-teams". Why are you singling out Von who gets as many double teams as any OLB in all of the NFL by percentage?

    The definition of consistent requires an understanding of what consistent means in that environment.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadez View Post
    I am not sure how you define "constant double-teams" (copied and pasted from your post) but on that list 5 people in all of the NFL are double teamed more than Von Miller and most of them are interior DL where the only option is to double team.

    That shows in comparison to other OLBs he is getting consistent double teams. More double teams than almost all other OLBs in the NFL.

    Maybe you think consistent means more than 50%? OLBs do not get treated that way in the NFL....so by that definition you can say no OLB in all of the NFL gets "constant double-teams". Maybe your argument should be no OLBs in all of the NFL get "constant double-teams". Why are you singling out Von who gets as many double teams as any OLB in all of the NFL by percentage?

    The definition of consistent requires an understanding of what consistent means in that environment.
    Do you know how Next Gen measures the double-team stat? Youíve relied on that stat since last season.

  12. #42
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    Hadez, you were one of the main culprits in the aforementioned thread spouting the incorrect and made up rhetoric which was referenced by the OP. In fact, you not only claimed he gets "all the attention", gets "double teamed", but also "triple teamed". The statistic you have posted in this thread was the only reference point you had and couldn't expand further on the claim you made, particularly the ridiculous triple team statement.

    Lets be honest, you haven't broken down the games, and a 22% double team in a league where teams are running an average of 75 plays per game, is still giving Von one on one opportunities against the run and pass on a hypothetical 58 occasions. Whether this statistic you clutch onto in support of your "double and triple" team theory is against the run and pass or both is unknown, but as I stated in the past argument, in which games are you referring to ?

    Thought I would chart the plays against the Chargers to see how much attention was given to both Miller and Chubb, it was essentially even. The Chargers chipped Von on 5 plays, 5 passing plays throughout the entire game, while chipping Chubb 5 times also, 5 times in the entire game. I find that quite interesting when Scholfield is the right tackle, and he is a struggling right tackle at that, while Okung is a solid veteran left tackle, yet they didn't really feel the need to give Schofield any more help with Von. I also didn't note any triple teams on Von at any point, but I will say Von had some nice early impact with both interceptions coming from pressures he applied.

    After charting the attention Chubb and Miller recieved against the Chargers, I thought I would look on Pro Football Focus to see who the worst rated tackles were, and see if Miller matched up against any of them, and see how the offense game planned around it. Well Schofield is at the bottom, and in week 16, Brandon Parker of the Raiders, who is also a rookie, he was the right tackle against Denver's defense, and again Miller had plenty of one on one oppurtunities. Only 5 times did the Raiders give help to the struggling right tackle against Von. Another interesting note, Chubb had help sliding his way on 6 occasions, and on less pass rushing snaps. Miller said after the game he needed to do more, and it would appear again, a real lack of double teams, a real lack of teams giving Miller "all the attention", and again, no triple teams, interesting.

    Thought I would do another game, this one was against the Browns in week 15, again it was much of the same. Von had extra attention on 5 pass rushing snaps, while Chubb had extra attention on 4. Once again I didn't see any triple teams, or "all of the attention" being given to Von. That is 5 games now I have looked at, and my "lies" seem to be proven to be otherwise. Genuinly curious, one of you guys who told me I was wrong want to point me in the direction of a game Von actually received "all of the attention", or a considerable amount more than Chubb ? Also, Von's only sack came on a stunt where he was untouched, so again not really doing a whole heap with plenty of one on one oppurtunities throughout the game.

    Just done another game by the way, this one against the Cardinals when we blew them out this season. Von seen extra attention on 11 of his 39 pass rushing snaps. Chubb also received pretty much the exact amount of extra attention, with 9 of his 33 pass rushing snaps seeing the offense shift some help to his side. Chubb had a nice sack against a double team also.

    I typed in "Von Miller Triple Teamed" into google, and their was an article from 2016 with Wade Phillips talking about how much attention Von got against the Jaguars. Here are some quotes from that article:

    ďIíve never seen a guy double-teamed as much as he was last game,íí
    "They double-teamed him on every pass play, at least two guys and sometimes three."
    "Talking to their coaches at the end of the game, they said, ĎWe werenít going to let him be the difference'."

    Even so, I went back and looked at every snap, and Wade may have been a little dramatic. On 37 pass rushing attempts, Von was left alone on 22 occasions, and on 15 occasions he seen extra attention. Of those 15 pass rushing snaps where he seen extra attention, 3 of those were triple teams, with Jacksonville placing a tight end and a running back over Von.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Hadez, you were one of the main culprits in the aforementioned thread spouting the incorrect and made up rhetoric which was referenced by the OP. In fact, you not only claimed he gets "all the attention", gets "double teamed", but also "triple teamed". The statistic you have posted in this thread was the only reference point you had and couldn't expand further on the claim you made, particularly the ridiculous triple team statement.

    Lets be honest, you haven't broken down the games, and a 22% double team in a league where teams are running an average of 75 plays per game, is still giving Von one on one opportunities against the run and pass on a hypothetical 58 occasions. Whether this statistic you clutch onto in support of your "double and triple" team theory is against the run and pass or both is unknown, but as I stated in the past argument, in which games are you referring to ?
    I answered the which game question directly to you before in the post you are talking about. I am not going to get into that again because of the obvious human factors weighing too heavy on this.

    When I watched game film last season I only included pass attempts and I excluded any play in which a double/triple was trying to be executed but for whatever reason the offensive player did not touch Von...even on plays where the offensive player did nothing else but watch Von and be ready to make contact I did not count. Still it was obvious to me some did not have an open mind then and do not have it now. So not going to go into all that again because obviously there is some human factors going on. As I recall that thread had to be cleaned up and I have bolded/underlined items in your post which lead me to think this discussion is going down the same path.

    So I come back to the NFL next gen stats because from everything I can see those are done by an source working with the NFL. I do admit I researched the NFL next gen stats for about 30 mins this morning and I do want to know more about them. Was considering making a new thread but busy doing some home improvements today.

    Regardless if the choice is to doubt stats gathered by some poster on the internet trying to make a point (be it me or you) or stats gathered by a source working with the NFL I would say the choice is easy.
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  14. #44
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    To be clear...if this thread was started with a conversation about 2019 week 1 I would be typing different posts. There are things I saw in week 1 I did not like. Not sure what is up about the things I saw at this time but it had nothing to do with double teams or lack of double teams.

    It was obvious from post 1 this was just as much about 2018 as 2019....who knows what was thought about more when making this thread.
    Win lose or tie Bronco fan til I die

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    Do you know how Next Gen measures the double-team stat? Youíve relied on that stat since last season.
    I answered in another post but wanted to show you the respect to answer directly

    No I do not. I researched for about 30 mins because I wanted a deeper look.

    Like others claimed I also watched game film but many times I have seen different posters see different things watching the same game film. I referenced that game in my post as well as some examples. I am not going to discuss it at this point. One of the reasons is because the examples from that game I used tactfully to help me determine if people had an open mind or not.

    If people still have feelings about that thread this many months later I am not sure if these forums can handle that discussion.

    Mods have enough work to do. Let us not add to that workload.
    Win lose or tie Bronco fan til I die

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