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  1. #46
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    There is only one team in the NFL with no sacks...
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    The early bird may get the worm, but the 2nd mouse gets the cheese

  2. #47
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    I'd also like to know how this play (cap below) is a roughing the passer.




    From my understanding Chubb followed the NFL rules TO THE LETTER. HE sacked/hit the QB on time, he DID NOT fall with his body weight onto Mitch. What exactly and why exactly is that a penalty? To make matters worse it sped the plays down the field and allowed for that ridiculous 1 second FG kick.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_C View Post
    As far as I can tell I see three major issues here:

    1. Interior pressure- it is just not there. Further more I am not seeing enough pressure from Wolfe into the backfield on passing plays especially on known passing downs.



    Looking at the image above - IMO shows the Bears level of "concern" with our players. Von had a double team, Chubb had a double team so does Gotsis. Wolfe is single covered and was put in his place. Wolfe NEEDS to get past his man. If he CANNOT beat his coverage or his man then IMO we've seen all we need to see Dre'Mont Jones or Walker in at LDE.


    2. Backend coverage: I know that so many here want to blame guys like Von and Chubb and even guys like Harris for not "getting there" that said we cannot keep ignoring this nonsense (see screencap below)



    This is not the first time we've see this. In fact that was one of my BIGGEST issues with the game against the Raiders. We keep playing off our man. So lets say our DB's are playing 4 yards back or basically playing to try and keep them within the 1st down markers. Then the opposing team will simply throw the ball 5 yards and might gain 6 or 7. Two throws like that and they just keep marching down that field. Sound familiar? We NEED to adjust how we have our DBs cover. I think we have simply seen enough on film to show that it will not work with our defensive scheme. Team are also not getting jammed at the LOS. Before you say - "But Rich how can you possibly make that comment"---see below same play as above.



    ALL of our back-end coverage is 5-6 yards BACK of the LOS. So that means that the opposing WR is getting to their spot anywhere from 3-6 yards from their starting spot without being touched. When I continue the tape and to watch the play (this is a somewhat common play so far this year) our DBs back pedal all the way back to the 1st down marker (or just inside it). Particularly on the bottom of the screen. So this gives the WR a free run to the 5-6 yard marker Gabriel (the WR who caught the pass) then spun and turned inside and gained 11 on the play for a 1st down.


    So for me this is just as much about our back-end scheme as it is our rushers. IMO - the DB's and how they are being coached and the scheme we are playing is just not conducive to having success. The sad thing is I think we could have success and we could do MUCH better if we were to alter a few things. I think it would be polar opposite to what we are seeing now.
    Yeah the CBs being so far off is bugging the crap out of me. Yiadom is getting toasted playing like that, but I canít bring myself to say heís a bad player because very few CBs can be successful doing that. When he was actually up on his WR the ball didnít go his way. I went back and watched some Bears stuff last season and it was more of the same, but the reason it worked there was because not only so they the best FS in the NFL in Jackson but they have a fast group of ILBs and a jack of all trades OLB in Floyd who is just fast and lanky so when those WRs got their free release inside the QB had to be weary of Jackson screaming down to take it to the house, the ILBs getting over to make a play, and Floyd potentially dropping back and mucking everything up. While the CB just sat on any short outbreaking routes which are inherently dangerous in their own right.

    Bottom line, Simmons isnít the threat jackson is to make those plays, our ILBs arenít fast enough to get over there, and Chubb/Miller arenít Leonard Floyd. You canít run a zone defense if youíre not fast both at running to where you need to be and fast at recognizing the play. We need to go to a press man scheme, yeah our ILBs will struggle in coverage but thatís the lesser or two evils IMO. Also Wolfe shouldnít be on the team, heís pretty average against the run and a complete non factor as a pass rusher. And with the emphasis on holding in the trenches, expect more holding calls on him as thatís his go to move to free up Von.

    You have to run a scheme that fits your players. Unfortunately we have ILBs built for the 70s but we have to make do with what we got.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_C View Post
    I'd also like to know how this play (cap below) is a roughing the passer.




    From my understanding Chubb followed the NFL rules TO THE LETTER. HE sacked/hit the QB on time, he DID NOT fall with his body weight onto Mitch. What exactly and why exactly is that a penalty? To make matters worse it sped the plays down the field and allowed for that ridiculous 1 second FG kick.
    Refs donít know what to call, Flacco got pile drived into the dirt last week and no call on the Raiders. With that much momentum thereís only so much a defender can do and the rules committee needs to adjust this ASAP. Just like it has to be ďblatantly obviousĒ to overturn a PI call/no call, it should have to be blatantly obvious the defender purposefully put all his weight into the QB. Any form of bracing for the fall ie putting your hand into the dirt should be legal.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroncoStampede View Post
    Maybe the transition from the booth to sideline was a bigger issue for Fangio than most people thought.
    Great insight & I wanted to wait a day to see my reactions. I've been an NFL fan for 60+ yrs & Bronco fan for 24 yrs. Especially nowaday we all tend to over react to everything. I get that no one especially the players want to hear rebuilding while their career is winding down. But it's time to blow it up, get a ton of draft picks or players and get ready for next year. We have a 10% chance of the playoffs and really IF we get their who could we beat or even compete with? In my business career we were taught the Six Sigma way which is "begin with the end in mind. " Someone like say Charly Casserly or anyone with a vision needs to say who stays who goes. We way too many times have kept players around just because ( see Paxton) And get pros like Stink, Orlando Frankin to consult on how to fix the O Line - dump Bolles is a start and so on. Let face it players like Wolfe, Bolles, Most of our TEs need to go via trade or cut. Even Vonn should be looked at for a trade. I mean with zero sacks why not try out most if not all our rookies and practice squad. During real games ( since we have zero preseason anymore) play D Jone, Khalfani Muhammad and others and later in the game sit Wolfe, Fumagalli, Bolles, Leary etc. etc. & see what you really have. While it won't please the fans does anyone think the no shows won't continue to grow especially when we are 0-3 after this week.
    Bronco Bob

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfallona View Post
    Great insight & I wanted to wait a day to see my reactions. I've been an NFL fan for 60+ yrs & Bronco fan for 24 yrs. Especially nowaday we all tend to over react to everything. I get that no one especially the players want to hear rebuilding while their career is winding down. But it's time to blow it up, get a ton of draft picks or players and get ready for next year. We have a 10% chance of the playoffs and really IF we get their who could we beat or even compete with? In my business career we were taught the Six Sigma way which is "begin with the end in mind. " Someone like say Charly Casserly or anyone with a vision needs to say who stays who goes. We way too many times have kept players around just because ( see Paxton) And get pros like Stink, Orlando Frankin to consult on how to fix the O Line - dump Bolles is a start and so on. Let face it players like Wolfe, Bolles, Most of our TEs need to go via trade or cut. Even Vonn should be looked at for a trade. I mean with zero sacks why not try out most if not all our rookies and practice squad. During real games ( since we have zero preseason anymore) play D Jone, Khalfani Muhammad and others and later in the game sit Wolfe, Fumagalli, Bolles, Leary etc. etc. & see what you really have. While it won't please the fans does anyone think the no shows won't continue to grow especially when we are 0-3 after this week.
    This is a great post. I firmly believe this team is in a rebuilding mode. People can say, "we gonna go kickin and screamin," or "no death by inches," but its painfully obvious this team has no direction or motivation to play well. You are absolutely correct when you say they need to sit the non performing starters and let some of the reserves and practice squad players get live action. What have they got to lose at this point? More games? Oh, I forgot, they are already doing that.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfallona View Post
    Great insight & I wanted to wait a day to see my reactions. I've been an NFL fan for 60+ yrs & Bronco fan for 24 yrs. Especially nowaday we all tend to over react to everything. I get that no one especially the players want to hear rebuilding while their career is winding down. But it's time to blow it up, get a ton of draft picks or players and get ready for next year. We have a 10% chance of the playoffs and really IF we get their who could we beat or even compete with? In my business career we were taught the Six Sigma way which is "begin with the end in mind. " Someone like say Charly Casserly or anyone with a vision needs to say who stays who goes. We way too many times have kept players around just because ( see Paxton) And get pros like Stink, Orlando Frankin to consult on how to fix the O Line - dump Bolles is a start and so on. Let face it players like Wolfe, Bolles, Most of our TEs need to go via trade or cut. Even Vonn should be looked at for a trade. I mean with zero sacks why not try out most if not all our rookies and practice squad. During real games ( since we have zero preseason anymore) play D Jone, Khalfani Muhammad and others and later in the game sit Wolfe, Fumagalli, Bolles, Leary etc. etc. & see what you really have. While it won't please the fans does anyone think the no shows won't continue to grow especially when we are 0-3 after this week.
    I believe we have hit rock bottom. Two seasons of less than 6 wins, and now it looks like a third - something that Denver hasn't had to suffer through since the 1960s when the Broncos resembled the 2003 - present Raiders.

    The construction of this Broncos team is flawed. This team is built around a defense designed to rush the passer, but that kind of defense is most effective when you have a lead and the other team is forced to throw. That requires an offense that can score a lot of (any?) points and get a lead on teams, which our offense doesn't seem to be designed for. Our offense is mostly a run based, ball control, west coast system with a game manager type of QB. In what universe does that cause teams to throw? This defense would have been suited for Manning's Colts, or any high-powered offense you can think of. Our offensive ineptitude is allowing teams like the Raiders (who just got obliterated by the Chiefs) and Bears to just put together long drives with runs and short passes which completely negate our pass rushing abilities.

    Since we have hit rock bottom with a deeply flawed team design, it's time to rebuild this team from the ground up, and start with the end in mind (great point and great post). This team needs a great QB. How do teams get great QBs? In the draft, then they develop them. This is what needs to be done, if not with Lock (if he doesn't have it - in the opinion of the coaching staff...and Elway..ugh) then you need to take your top 5 draft pick next April and draft one. Maybe even tank for Tua, Flunk for Fromm (just made that up) or whatever for whoever. A QB and an offensive line need to be a package deal. Getting Munchak will help the O-Line, but get a new Left Tackle. From there, all of a sudden you have some young playmakers on offense and the future starts to look bright.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    Refs don’t know what to call, Flacco got pile drived into the dirt last week and no call on the Raiders. With that much momentum there’s only so much a defender can do and the rules committee needs to adjust this ASAP. Just like it has to be “blatantly obvious” to overturn a PI call/no call, it should have to be blatantly obvious the defender purposefully put all his weight into the QB. Any form of bracing for the fall ie putting your hand into the dirt should be legal.
    I completely agree with this. So long as the defender puts his hands out and or legs down to prevent his weight from flopping on the QB that should be OK. I have seen L.M. post something to the effect that when a play like the one Chubb has called on him gets called and the refs DON'T huddle and overturn it then it really does impact the perception and the fan experience in the game. It also leaves both fan bases knowing that the officiating has and can impact the outcome of the game.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzolve View Post
    We've been outplayed on defense by both teams in 2 weeks and thats the "strength" of our team.

    I'll still watch but my expectations are turned. I loved how the offense actually picked the team up especially against the #1 defense. Too bad our defense couldn't just hang on.

    Even McManus choked
    I remember when our defense got real good in 2015 it was said we were less read and react and more attack.

    It seemed against the Raiders we were not attacking. I do not know if we were read and reacting...still learning the defense or as a team players were just playing bad or maybe some combo of all that.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    Yeah the CBs being so far off is bugging the crap out of me. Yiadom is getting toasted playing like that, but I can’t bring myself to say he’s a bad player because very few CBs can be successful doing that. When he was actually up on his WR the ball didn’t go his way. I went back and watched some Bears stuff last season and it was more of the same, but the reason it worked there was because not only so they the best FS in the NFL in Jackson but they have a fast group of ILBs and a jack of all trades OLB in Floyd who is just fast and lanky so when those WRs got their free release inside the QB had to be weary of Jackson screaming down to take it to the house, the ILBs getting over to make a play, and Floyd potentially dropping back and mucking everything up. While the CB just sat on any short outbreaking routes which are inherently dangerous in their own right.

    Bottom line, Simmons isn’t the threat jackson is to make those plays, our ILBs aren’t fast enough to get over there, and Chubb/Miller aren’t Leonard Floyd. You can’t run a zone defense if you’re not fast both at running to where you need to be and fast at recognizing the play. We need to go to a press man scheme, yeah our ILBs will struggle in coverage but that’s the lesser or two evils IMO. Also Wolfe shouldn’t be on the team, he’s pretty average against the run and a complete non factor as a pass rusher. And with the emphasis on holding in the trenches, expect more holding calls on him as that’s his go to move to free up Von.

    You have to run a scheme that fits your players. Unfortunately we have ILBs built for the 70s but we have to make do with what we got.
    Actually after I posted this I re-watched some of Wolfe's plays. I have a few comments there:

    1. He either needs to use his hand more to break away holds

    and/or

    2. He needs to pull away more to showcase that he is being held.

    In the first image I went back and looked at "The other angle" and what is missing from the picture angle I included the was the fact that Wolfe shoved his defender well over to the side. Then the defender hung onto his jersey as he was falling off balance. I saw similar things occur for a good portion of the game.


    Since this IS about sacks and getting into the backfield. What I have also seen is offensive schemes which leverage Fangio's zoneish style defense and how it keeps players back and off the ball. SO many times vs the Raiders and the Bears I saw blocking schemes by the offensive line where they blocked and used our own players as additional blockers/ walls to prevent Von (specifically) from rushing the passer and tackling the runner in the backfield. I think that when we see plays like this develop that we need to ensure we alter our defensive strategy. IMO the way to counter that is by rushing 3. Then Have Von and Chubb back off for a second or two then have them rush but adjust to try and put themselves in the best possible position to break up the run in the backfield OR stop it before it turns into a gain of 7+ yards.

    I am not all the way to the point where I think our team needs to be completely blown apart. I just think that we, and by we I mean Elway, has again gone out and grabbed a guy in Fangio who appears to be stuck in his ways. Our defensive scheme is clearly not well suited for who we have. So adapt.

  11. #56
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    The Broncos simply don't have the personnel to utilize a 3-man line. The Broncos can't stop the run up the middle, and haven't sniffed a single sack. You would think that a "Defensive Guru" could adjust to those very simple facts.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_C View Post

    I am not all the way to the point where I think our team needs to be completely blown apart. I just think that we, and by we I mean Elway, has again gone out and grabbed a guy in Fangio who appears to be stuck in his ways. Our defensive scheme is clearly not well suited for who we have. So adapt.
    I completely agree that a team needs to build its defense around the players it has.

    Honestly I do not think many coaches in the NFL do this...it is why so many are fired year in and year out.

    When we have like...like we did in Wade Phillips... we should not let them go.

  13. #58
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    I donít think the run defense has been that bad. The ypc is pretty good, itís just that itís consistently 3.5 a pop. Very few TFL or no/1 yard gains and when we do the next run averages it out. I put it more on the LBs though, Nelson is getting washed out and Jewell isnít getting to the right gap. Seems like Jewell is reading the RB and getting influenced by them which leads to him getting blocked rather than making the right read and filling the hole. I saw I think Montgomery briefly go to the right on one play where there wasnít a hole, Jewell stepped that direction with him and it allowed the lineman to get up to Jewell and seal him off for Montgomery to cut through the gap Jewell shouldíve already been in.

    Everyone wants to build a defense outside in with elite level CBs and edge rushers, but defenses need to be built inside out. Thereís so much more field to cover in the middle than the edges. The media can try to devalue ILBs and Safeties all they want, but thy are critical to a defenses success. And thereís no such thing as running and passing downs anymore so you canít just get ďboxĒ Safeties and ď2 down thumpersĒ at ILB, everyone has to be able to play the run and cover.

  14. #59
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    The second to last play really tells the story: Trubisky looks both ways, then steps up and hits the receiver for a first down in FG range. As long as QB's can step up into a clean pocket, the edge rush is neutralized. That's not to say Von and Chubb shouldn't find a way in a critical spot like that, but the reality is our interior line scares no one on passing downs, and they're not so great against the run either. The T's/TE's are free to focus on pushing Von and Chubb behind the play without having to worry about what's happening inside. Fangio's defense keeps the play in front of them, and counts on pressure to disrupt rhythm. It's simply not going to work without interior pressure. The secondary will look bad regardless of whether they play press or off. It's just a bad situation. Priority 1 if I'm Fangio is manufacture interior pressure, both pass and run. Otherwise, good QBs are going to torch our defense.

    As a side note, I'm not sure what "blowing up" and rebuilding a team mid-season means. There's no way to run a team other than to play the players who give you the best chance to win. We don't have enough talent right now, agreed. If the argument is to give younger players a chance and they are outperforming the starter in practice, then by all means, they should play. If not, I can't imagine the coaches deliberately steering play time to players who haven't earned it, unless it's to give a younger player reps at the end of the season and PF's are out of reach already.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgobronco View Post
    The second to last play really tells the story: Trubisky looks both ways, then steps up and hits the receiver for a first down in FG range. As long as QB's can step up into a clean pocket, the edge rush is neutralized. That's not to say Von and Chubb shouldn't find a way in a critical spot like that, but the reality is our interior line scares no one on passing downs, and they're not so great against the run either. The T's/TE's are free to focus on pushing Von and Chubb behind the play without having to worry about what's happening inside. Fangio's defense keeps the play in front of them, and counts on pressure to disrupt rhythm. It's simply not going to work without interior pressure. The secondary will look bad regardless of whether they play press or off. It's just a bad situation. Priority 1 if I'm Fangio is manufacture interior pressure, both pass and run. Otherwise, good QBs are going to torch our defense.

    As a side note, I'm not sure what "blowing up" and rebuilding a team mid-season means. There's no way to run a team other than to play the players who give you the best chance to win. We don't have enough talent right now, agreed. If the argument is to give younger players a chance and they are outperforming the starter in practice, then by all means, they should play. If not, I can't imagine the coaches deliberately steering play time to players who haven't earned it, unless it's to give a younger player reps at the end of the season and PF's are out of reach already.
    I am sorry but I cannot agree with the first portion of your post. I think I have posted this throughout this thread. Our DBs have no business being 4 or 5 yards off their guy. The last reception of the game was squarely on CHJ. Two reasons....one why was he so far back off his man who he was tasked with shadowing all night? Second where is the heads up play to prevent the WR from falling down until time runs out? CHJ comes from a team which showcased defensive excellence. Where is his accountability? How is letting a guy catch a pass (unchallenged) helping your team win?

    Again tying this to the pass rush thread. If our DBs were tighter and more disciplined in coverage then we'd have seen more sacks and potentially a cracking hit on Mitch had he had no where to throw to.

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