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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    Oh that’ll be the day! I’m willing to bet that Joe Ellis does not extend him after the 2020 season!

    I’m not saying that any of you have to agree with me so please don’t try to convince me of otherwise because I truly believe Elways time ran out two years.

    Yes he helped bring us a super bowl but then demanded That Kubiak fire that very staff that brought us that super bowl only one season removed after a 9-7 season without PFM.

    He didn’t think much of continuity then so why think much of it on his behalf!
    Elway is signed through the 2021 season.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by 58Miller View Post
    Elway is signed through the 2021 season.
    Lol My bad but still unless things change dramatically, that is what I believe will happen.

    However the defense is starting to look really good, so if the offense can turn things around and catch, up there is always the chance that things will be completely different than what I am saying but I agree with the folks that say we need continuity with the coaching staff therefore I think we have no choice but to roll with Scangarello for a significant amount of time!

    Fangio and Munchak are too highly regarded around the league to let go after just two seasons so I believe they will be here for the long haul as well.
    Last edited by Sam_Z; 10-14-2019 at 07:26 PM.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    Lol My bad but still unless things change dramatically, that is what I believe will happen.

    However the defense is starting to look really good, so if the offense can turn things around and catch, up there is always the chance that things will be completely different than what I am saying but I agree with the folks that say we need continuity with the coaching staff therefore I think we have no choice but to roll with Scangarello for a significant amount of time!

    Fangio and Munchak are too highly regarded around the league to let go after just two seasons so I believe they will be here for the long haul as well.
    After this season will know what we got and what we need. $70 million in free agency should help fill a couple holes.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    Oh that’ll be the day! I’m willing to bet that Joe Ellis does not extend him after the 2020 season!

    I’m not saying that any of you have to agree with me so please don’t try to convince me of otherwise because I truly believe Elways time ran out two years.

    Yes he helped bring us a super bowl but then demanded That Kubiak fire that very staff that brought us that super bowl only one season removed after a 9-7 season without PFM.

    He didn’t think much of continuity then so why think much of it on his behalf!
    I'm staying out of this debate.... Just curious if you could provide that info though??

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    Oh that’ll be the day! I’m willing to bet that Joe Ellis does not extend him after the 2020 season!

    I’m not saying that any of you have to agree with me so please don’t try to convince me of otherwise because I truly believe Elways time ran out two years.

    Yes he helped bring us a super bowl but then demanded That Kubiak fire that very staff that brought us that super bowl only one season removed after a 9-7 season without PFM.

    He didn’t think much of continuity then so why think much of it on his behalf!
    Only thing I found is that Elway wanted Dennison and Pariani out..... No big loss there.....

    Also found that when Fangio wanted Kubs as the OC, Kubs wanted him to hire Dennison and Pariani.... Uh...... Fangio is the head coach and picks the staff.... Kubs threw a fit over him not wanting those two on the staff and that was that......

    Dennison was not a productive coach by any stretch of the imagination but he's Kubiak's friend so he gets paid?
    Last edited by Stackhouser; 10-15-2019 at 06:42 AM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stackhouser View Post
    Only thing I found is that Elway wanted Dennison and Pariani out..... No big loss there.....

    Also found that when Fangio wanted Kubs as the OC, Kubs wanted him to hire Dennison and Pariani.... Uh...... Fangio is the head coach and picks the staff.... Kubs threw a fit over him not wanting those two on the staff and that was that......

    Dennison was not a productive coach by any stretch of the imagination but he's Kubiak's friend so he gets paid?
    Per mike klis and Sandy Clough, “Elway said that he wasn’t going to rehire coaches that he recently dismissed less than a couple of seasons ago”.

    Now I know what is reported in the mainstream but I believe the radio reports first because a lot more is brought to light with spur of the moment conversation.

    They also said that Gary told John that “they are damn good coaches and won’t work without his staff”.

    Now I can agree with John’s stance there, but these guys did win a super bowl and followed it with a 9-7 season with poor QB play.

    I only bring it up because everyone keeps saying John deserves more time but what about the time Gary Kubiak and his staff was given? Wade Philips in general?

    John made the horrible choice to hire VJ and allow Wade to leave, after that it kind of error, a person is reluctant to trust his judgements in the future.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    Per mike klis and Sandy Clough, “Elway said that he wasn’t going to rehire coaches that he recently dismissed less than a couple of seasons ago”.

    Now I know what is reported in the mainstream but I believe the radio reports first because a lot more is brought to light with spur of the moment conversation.

    They also said that Gary told John that “they are damn good coaches and won’t work without his staff”.

    Now I can agree with John’s stance there, but these guys did win a super bowl and followed it with a 9-7 season with poor QB play.

    I only bring it up because everyone keeps saying John deserves more time but what about the time Gary Kubiak and his staff was given? Wade Philips in general?

    John made the horrible choice to hire VJ and allow Wade to leave, after that it kind of error, a person is reluctant to trust his judgements in the future.
    It seemed more like Kubs threw a fit about HIS buddy and wouldn't work without Him/Them..... I totally agree with Elway on this. As for the time Kubs was given?? He stepped away on his own. New coaches bring in their own staff. That's not Elway fault, but the cast involved. As for Wade.... That one is on Elway, (kinda), but you know as well as I do, Elway is tight with the checkbook and Wade was asking for top price on his contract. Also, Wade even said himself that he knew VJ needed to be the coaching voice on that team and Wade would have had that locker room listening to him. Also, VJ would bring in his own guys so Wade knew the writing was on the wall.

    We all agree that VJ was not a great choice, but we didn't know that until the outcome played out. New head coaches succeed or fail. It's just like drafting a 1st round QB. It's a crap shoot. Do you think that the Rams knew they had a great young coach in McVay? They hoped so, and it has paid off. If VJ had lead the Broncos to a resurgence, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    Dang is Sam, I said I wasn't going to get involved in this debate.... I've been just watching in the shadows recently and look what you made me do!!

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    Lol My bad but still unless things change dramatically, that is what I believe will happen.

    However the defense is starting to look really good, so if the offense can turn things around and catch, up there is always the chance that things will be completely different than what I am saying but I agree with the folks that say we need continuity with the coaching staff therefore I think we have no choice but to roll with Scangarello for a significant amount of time!

    Fangio and Munchak are too highly regarded around the league to let go after just two seasons so I believe they will be here for the long haul as well.
    The D has improved every game, I think it was obvious Fangio and Ed didn't have the players they needed to run their D. Once he made some changes it was night and day. Hopefully they continue to improve. I think Scags is in the same boat. He does not have the players he needs to run his O. Hopefully we can address that in the off season and with Lock. I think once scags gets an upgraded line and a better qb we are gonna see some good things.

    I am satisfied with our coaching and hope they will stick around for sometime.

    I still have questions on Elway's ability to fill the holes we need. Hopefully he lets Scags Ed and Fangio have major input.

    BCMB Div I - AB's Etsy Shop | BCMB FF Smackdown - Cold Feet

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stackhouser View Post
    It seemed more like Kubs threw a fit about HIS buddy and wouldn't work without Him/Them..... I totally agree with Elway on this. As for the time Kubs was given?? He stepped away on his own. New coaches bring in their own staff. That's not Elway fault, but the cast involved. As for Wade.... That one is on Elway, (kinda), but you know as well as I do, Elway is tight with the checkbook and Wade was asking for top price on his contract. Also, Wade even said himself that he knew VJ needed to be the coaching voice on that team and Wade would have had that locker room listening to him. Also, VJ would bring in his own guys so Wade knew the writing was on the wall.

    We all agree that VJ was not a great choice, but we didn't know that until the outcome played out. New head coaches succeed or fail. It's just like drafting a 1st round QB. It's a crap shoot. Do you think that the Rams knew they had a great young coach in McVay? They hoped so, and it has paid off. If VJ had lead the Broncos to a resurgence, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    Dang is Sam, I said I wasn't going to get involved in this debate.... I've been just watching in the shadows recently and look what you made me do!!
    Well see the report from Mike Kliss back at that time was that John had asked Gary to dismiss Brian Pariani and Rick Denison.
    Of course that was radio report therefore I don’t have a link but I remember hearing it anyway kliss stated ultimatum (if we can call it that) actually that led to a lot of stress and pushed Gary to the point where he decided it was best for him to step down.

    Now there is no way that any of us can prove this because it’s not documented anywhere However I am Somewhat of a cynic and I don’t believe the local TV news or the Denver Post so much as I do when these media guys talk on the radio.

    I believe the local TV stations and Denver Post are somewhat bias and only going to report good things in an attempt to keep everything peaceful and positive.

    Denver is old school with a lot of close friends in local sports and media working together, therefore they aren’t going to report so much controversial even though they are the media Lol. It’s Almost like family, which is good but because of that we’re not gonna hear a lot of this stuff from them.

    Anyway I’m not trying to argue, I’ve spent the last three weeks stating my opinion and defending that opinion. I can appreciate the opinions of others just the same, aside from those who come attacking but I there’s no need to say an names anyway It’s all opinion and that is what this place is for.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stackhouser View Post
    It seemed more like Kubs threw a fit about HIS buddy and wouldn't work without Him/Them..... I totally agree with Elway on this. As for the time Kubs was given?? He stepped away on his own. New coaches bring in their own staff. That's not Elway fault, but the cast involved. As for Wade.... That one is on Elway, (kinda), but you know as well as I do, Elway is tight with the checkbook and Wade was asking for top price on his contract. Also, Wade even said himself that he knew VJ needed to be the coaching voice on that team and Wade would have had that locker room listening to him. Also, VJ would bring in his own guys so Wade knew the writing was on the wall.

    We all agree that VJ was not a great choice, but we didn't know that until the outcome played out. New head coaches succeed or fail. It's just like drafting a 1st round QB. It's a crap shoot. Do you think that the Rams knew they had a great young coach in McVay? They hoped so, and it has paid off. If VJ had lead the Broncos to a resurgence, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    Dang is Sam, I said I wasn't going to get involved in this debate.... I've been just watching in the shadows recently and look what you made me do!!
    Like Kubes, Dennison was trained by Shanahan as well and knows the same system and terminology so Kubes was comfortable with him and felt he could trust him to implement his play designs, but Rick is a bit of a blockhead and ineffectual once scripted plays were done, so I agree, he deserves to be unemployed but of course he is currently the OL coach in Minn under Kubes.

    As for Wade, after SB50 he demanded to be the top paid DC and have his contract extended. Elway balked and said he could have one or the other, so Wade took the cash for 2016. After Kubes left, the F.O. felt that Joe Woods, the DB position coach of "The No Fly Zone", was a rising star and due for a promotion and feared that some other team would snatch him away.

    Additionally, the F.O. had been interested in VJ because of his long friendship with Matt Russell, the Broncos director of player personnel. [Matt and VJ were teammates at CU, and later staff assistants there together as well.] VJ was a position coach under Wade in Houston. So the F.O. thinking was that the defensive roster was still stacked and two of Wade's assistants would be taking over so there would be little or no drop-off in the defensive production which won the title. Wade himself gave VJ props tweeting that VJ knows what he himself knows and more and that the D would be fine. It was a serious miscalculation but only from 20/20 hindsight as nobody knew what to expect and many were quite optimistic.

    Wade quickly and eagerly made the deal with the Rams for all the money that he wanted (and, as a bonus, to be with his daughter who lives in L.A.) before the Broncos had formally made their decision. VJ was asked if Wade would be his DC in his initial press conference and didn't know. Wade had seen the writing on the wall so he wasted no time.

    I began documenting this stuff on Wade in an old bumped thread but couldn't finish because it got locked. See:
    https://forums.denverbroncos.com/sho...hillips/page23
    Last edited by L.M.; 10-15-2019 at 08:28 AM.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    Per mike klis and Sandy Clough, “Elway said that he wasn’t going to rehire coaches that he recently dismissed less than a couple of seasons ago”.

    Now I know what is reported in the mainstream but I believe the radio reports first because a lot more is brought to light with spur of the moment conversation.

    They also said that Gary told John that “they are damn good coaches and won’t work without his staff”.

    Now I can agree with John’s stance there, but these guys did win a super bowl and followed it with a 9-7 season with poor QB play.

    I only bring it up because everyone keeps saying John deserves more time but what about the time Gary Kubiak and his staff was given? Wade Philips in general?

    John made the horrible choice to hire VJ and allow Wade to leave, after that it kind of error, a person is reluctant to trust his judgements in the future.
    Elway made a good choice in John Fox,
    Then a very risky move in replacing him with Kubes and Wade
    and yes he made a horrible choice in VJ

    So he’s made two good hires at coach and one bad one
    First hire got us to a SB
    Second hire won a SB
    3rd hire got us to the gutter

    That’s how i view it and that’s why I’m fine with letting him play out his contract through 2021.

    Fangio and Scangerello are Elways guys and he has the pressure to give them what they need, and build a new culture in Denver.

    I get it you want Elway gone, if he’s steps down or gets fired you can celebrate, but right know it looks like he will probably see things through 2021. The owner situation is not in a good position, once that’s worked out I’m sure the person who takes over will have their own vision for the team and bring in a new regime.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipablo View Post
    The D has improved every game, I think it was obvious Fangio and Ed didn't have the players they needed to run their D. Once he made some changes it was night and day. Hopefully they continue to improve. I think Scags is in the same boat. He does not have the players he needs to run his O. Hopefully we can address that in the off season and with Lock. I think once scags gets an upgraded line and a better qb we are gonna see some good things.

    I am satisfied with our coaching and hope they will stick around for sometime.

    I still have questions on Elway's ability to fill the holes we need. Hopefully he lets Scags Ed and Fangio have major input.
    I have been hearing that Joe Eliss was greatly dissatisfied with the high turnover in the coaching Department.

    Therefore I personally believe that Vic Fangio and perhaps Scangarello will outlast both of them here in Denver. LOL

    Continuity is what we need and we have some damn good coaches right now and we need to roll with them and give them the chance to succeed otherwise it’ll be more of the same.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by 58Miller View Post
    Elway made a good choice in John Fox,
    Then a very risky move in replacing him with Kubes and Wade
    and yes he made a horrible choice in VJ

    So he’s made two good hires at coach and one bad one
    First hire got us to a SB
    Second hire won a SB
    3rd hire got us to the gutter

    That’s how i view it and that’s why I’m fine with letting him play out his contract through 2021.

    Fangio and Scangerello are Elways guys and he has the pressure to give them what they need, and build a new culture in Denver.

    I get it you want Elway gone, if he’s steps down or gets fired you can celebrate, but right know it looks like he will probably see things through 2021. The owner situation is not in a good position, once that’s worked out I’m sure the person who takes over will have their own vision for the team and bring in a new regime.
    As long as this coaching staff is given a fair chance, I am fine with whoever is in charge.

    I don’t want Elway gone, I just want him to leave the scouting and player personnel to the coaching staff specifically offense.

    We can all agree that Mike Shanahan had far too much on his plate and was a horrible draft evaluator. At this point in time, I think John Elway is right on that same level in that category.

    Doesn’t mean I don’t like him it doesn’t mean he’s a bad guy, it just means that he’s not very good at finding draft talent, the very same thing that eventually did Mike Shanahan in.

    Saying this should not draw so much criticism from the loyalist!

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    As long as this coaching staff is given a fair chance, I am fine with whoever is in charge.

    I don’t want Elway gone, I just want him to leave the scouting and player personnel to the coaching staff specifically offense.

    We can all agree that Mike Shanahan had far too much on his plate and was a horrible draft evaluator. At this point in time, I think John Elway is right on that same level in that category.

    Doesn’t mean I don’t like him it doesn’t mean he’s a bad guy, it just means that he’s not very good at finding draft talent, the very same thing that eventually did Mike Shanahan in.

    Saying this should not draw so much criticism from the loyalist!
    Remember Elway came into the this job because Pat asked him to save the teams face. My guess is after winning the SB, Elway bought into his own genius only to be humbled (“pride before a fall”) but now we see he has brought in more experienced football guys like Munchak and Fangio. And our drafts are now focused more on football players and leaders rather than athletes. Because of these moves I’m optimistic, obviously hasn’t been a good start but I believe our future is bright, Fangio will build a solid defense.
    I am crossing my fingers Scangerello is going to build an offense that eventually Lock can take over. Right now the offense hasn’t looked good, has had moments even strong half’s but still waiting for Scangerello to call a great game for 4 qrts.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by 58Miller View Post
    Remember Elway came into the this job because Pat asked him to save the teams face. My guess is after winning the SB, Elway bought into his own genius only to be humbled (“pride before a fall”) but now we see he has brought in more experienced football guys like Munchak and Fangio. And our drafts are now focused more on football players and leaders rather than athletes. Because of these moves I’m optimistic, obviously hasn’t been a good start but I believe our future is bright, Fangio will build a solid defense.
    I am crossing my fingers Scangerello is going to build an offense that eventually Lock can take over. Right now the offense hasn’t looked good, has had moments even strong half’s but still waiting for Scangerello to call a great game for 4 qrts.
    The scripted plays seem to have made a difference, hopefully like you said he gets better but I think he needs to realize that he can’t get too creative if it is not a strength right now but rather find what works and stick with it until he’s got better blocking schemes up front.

    Right now Leary seems worse than Bolles with the penalties but I think some of that is coming from trying to help Wilkenson who’s just been awful at times.

    If Juwan James is healthy and can stay healthy, we may see a different Ron Leary however imo due to James injury history, I believe we still need a right tackle.
    Last edited by Sam_Z; 10-15-2019 at 09:50 AM.

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