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  1. #16
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    Mike Vick, Cordell Stewart, RG3, Tebow, all rum first,,,( although Tebow was a power runner, not speed) all ended up with nothing shorter careers...

    Mcnabb lost his mojo when his mobility went away...same with Dante culpepper... and what hardware does Cam have?

    Dual threat is the magic word IMO... a pocket threat that can scramble.... that’s Tarkenton, Elway, Young...and now Luck(ret) , Mahomes, Rodgers

    It’s. Still a throwing league....and that will always come first... mobility is a nice to have second...
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    Adopted Bronco: Andy Janovich

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieMac View Post
    Mike Vick, Cordell Stewart, RG3, Tebow, all rum first,,,( although Tebow was a power runner, not speed) all ended up with nothing shorter careers...

    Mcnabb lost his mojo when his mobility went away...same with Dante culpepper... and what hardware does Cam have?

    Dual threat is the magic word IMO... a pocket threat that can scramble.... that’s Tarkenton, Elway, Young...and now Luck(ret) , Mahomes, Rodgers

    It’s. Still a throwing league....and that will always come first... mobility is a nice to have second...
    I though it was Orton who was rum first.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Well done putting in the work, but I'm not really sure what story you're trying to tell here? Are we looking at just straight running QBs? Because those teams don't win much of anything. Or are we looking at QBs that can move around and extend plays with their legs to give themselves a chance to make a play either by running or passing? Because that's very valuable. Much more so than a guy who just has a lot of rushing attempts.

    The more "mobile" a QB tends to be (meaning run first, not a great passer) the more their teams tend to struggle when opposition just contains them in the pocket and dares them to throw. Think of Jackson last year and the Chargers, they just put speed on the field so he couldn't find running lanes and they dared him to pass the ball, and he couldn't. Now to Jackson's credit, early in the season his passing appears to be better this year.

    But to me (and most people) when they talk about mobile QBs you're talking about guys who can make plays with their arm as well as extend plays with their legs, and pick up first downs when the defence gives them lanes. And that's more of the model Lock actually is. If you're thinking that he'll be a guy attempting a bunch of called QB run plays each game I don't think that will happen.

    I get it, it's your study and you looked at a bunch of stuff to prove whatever it is you were proving, but what I saw was you listed a bunch of QBs who never won a Super Bowl, and Brad Johnson.
    I've been told a number of times that "most people" doesn't cut it.

    As for the last bolded point....well, lets just say it's not exactly polite, nor necessary.

    If you look a little closer you would see that it is just a simple assessment of every year since 1970, and what might typically represent QBs who run more than in other years. It's not perfect. But I think it shows how there were few running QBs for the first few decades, and then a rise and slight fall, and into another rise, which is currently happening. Young players who are very athletic, can pass and run, and definitely be called elusive. The athletic, or mobile in most cases QB is seemingly on the rise.

    Again, not the work of genius, just backing a simple observation I was having. Because we can all observe, but you need some basic data to support. I thought my data was relevant to some degree.

    But beyond that, I was hoping for some discussion. For one thing, I was not sure how "how is Steve Young not mentioned" was part of it. Not even a thought in my head. I mentioned some names, but just as part of the trending consideration. And as for, "whatever you were proving", I did not think that was a fair comment. This was meant for discussion, not me stating how right I am, or how confused I appear to be. I was not confused when I presented this. I thought it was kind of straightforward. Must be the age thing.

    But thanks!
    Last edited by CanDB; 09-21-2019 at 08:50 AM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanDB View Post
    And it is almost the same memory I have, that night on MNF when the snow came down heavy in Denver, and The Broncos D made things happen! That night made me become more of a Denver fan, and basically converted me long term.

    But as we both are saying, if that player can not throw accurately, they will not last.
    To address your first point:

    By the start of the 1984 season, I knew I couldn't remain a Vikings fan because of that awful dome (I tried in '82 and '83 but was miserable) so I decided what was important to me in whatever new team I would become a fan of:

    1) They had to play outside
    2) They had to play on grass not astro-turf or a phony surface
    3) They had to have colorful uniforms
    4) They had to play in a cold weather city so I'd get to see a snow game once in awhile

    I'd narrowed it down to the Browns, Packers or Broncos. Then I turned on MNF 10/15/84 and the choice was made the second I saw the blizzard! Then as you mentioned, our D! When I saw them score TD returns on back to back fumble recoveries, I was in heaven! And then, we had a barefooted kicker playing in the snow, how crazy was that? I knew I made the right choice

    Point 2, getting back on topic...a mobile QB without accuracy has no chance for multiple season success. I became a huge Tebow fan because the 2011 season was magical and all those impossible last second wins reminded me of the Elway years, but no way he could sustain the magic or the physical punishment of basically being a RB who sometimes passed...sometimes well, sometimes not so well And as you said, look at Cam. Unless some crazy reversal of confidence and skill happens, his career essentially ended with SB50 when we shut down his run and forced him to be the accurate pocket passer he's not...he's been a walking QB dead man ever since...thank you very much Von Miller
    "There is no plan B. Plan A is to win the Super Bowl" - John Elway
    PLAN A ACCOMPLISHED 2/7/16!!!

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis.1960 View Post
    To address your first point:

    By the start of the 1984 season, I knew I couldn't remain a Vikings fan because of that awful dome (I tried in '82 and '83 but was miserable) so I decided what was important to me in whatever new team I would become a fan of:

    1) They had to play outside
    2) They had to play on grass not astro-turf or a phony surface
    3) They had to have colorful uniforms
    4) They had to play in a cold weather city so I'd get to see a snow game once in awhile

    I'd narrowed it down to the Browns, Packers or Broncos. Then I turned on MNF 10/15/84 and the choice was made the second I saw the blizzard! Then as you mentioned, our D! When I saw them score TD returns on back to back fumble recoveries, I was in heaven! And then, we had a barefooted kicker playing in the snow, how crazy was that? I knew I made the right choice

    Point 2, getting back on topic...a mobile QB without accuracy has no chance for multiple season success. I became a huge Tebow fan because the 2011 season was magical and all those impossible last second wins reminded me of the Elway years, but no way he could sustain the magic or the physical punishment of basically being a RB who sometimes passed...sometimes well, sometimes not so well And as you said, look at Cam. Unless some crazy reversal of confidence and skill happens, his career essentially ended with SB50 when we shut down his run and forced him to be the accurate pocket passer he's not...he's been a walking QB dead man ever since...thank you very much Von Miller
    I like your story. It makes me reminisce. And though that MNF game was not a major event in history, it clearly rocked our worlds! We became big time Bronco fans. I'll never forget that beginning, with all the snow, and a D scoring like that!!!

    As for the QBs, mobile/athletic mean little to me, if they do not pass accurately, and run when they should pass.

    Not to mention, one play extending run can equal injury, if not safely executed. I have Watson in one of my fantasy pools, and he made a great running TD 2 games ago, BUT he almost got injured when he landed harshly on his back. Not sure he needed to make that play. Then again, if he keeps it smart, he may be one of the finer athletic/mobile QBs.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis.1960 View Post
    I loved the Vikings! I became a fan at a very early age and ....
    Waaait a minute! Hold the phone! You're a Vikings fan!?!?

    I thought you were an old school Broncos fan stuck growing up in Raider/Niners territory! How the heck did this happen!?

    So if the Vikes had made it to SB33 instead of the Falcons you would have rooted for them!?
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanDB View Post
    I like your story. It makes me reminisce. And though that MNF game was not a major event in history, it clearly rocked our worlds! We became big time Bronco fans. I'll never forget that beginning, with all the snow, and a D scoring like that!!!

    As for the QBs, mobile/athletic mean little to me, if they do not pass accurately, and run when they should pass.

    Not to mention, one play extending run can equal injury, if not safely executed. I have Watson in one of my fantasy pools, and he made a great running TD 2 games ago, BUT he almost got injured when he landed harshly on his back. Not sure he needed to make that play. Then again, if he keeps it smart, he may be one of the finer athletic/mobile QBs.
    Thanks, I love reminiscing about that game! In the grand scheme of things a mid October Monday night game against a non-conference opponent wasn't crucial (though in '84 we came into the game 5-1 and ran the table with consecutive wins to 11-1) but it will always be one of my favorite Bronco games of all time and the night I became a fan

    Back to mobile QB's...Very good point. Similar thing happened to Russell Wilson last week. Nowhere to throw so he took off running and did his usual baseball slide to avoid contact...his knee hit a bad part of the field and stuck and bounced rather than slid ripping up a huge chuck of sod. Definitely looked like it could have been a serious knee injury but turned out he was fine. Then again, I don't know if it's any safer staying in the pocket while 300+ pound destruction machines come after your head and knees!
    "There is no plan B. Plan A is to win the Super Bowl" - John Elway
    PLAN A ACCOMPLISHED 2/7/16!!!

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.M. View Post
    Waaait a minute! Hold the phone! You're a Vikings fan!?!?

    I thought you were an old school Broncos fan stuck growing up in Raider/Niners territory! How the heck did this happen!?

    So if the Vikes had made it to SB33 instead of the Falcons you would have rooted for them!?
    Haha, no I was a Vikings fan from '69 to '83 then came over to the Broncos on blizzard night in '84, though still stuck in Raider/Niners territory the whole time until 2013. Being a Viking fan in Raider/Niner territory wasn't much fun either especially after the Raiders destroyed the Vikings in SB XI.

    I actually laughed about that when it looked like the Vikings were going to beat the Falcons and go to SB33. I think I would have liked the symmetry of seeing my current favorite and old favorite both in the SB, but the Vikings of 1998 were hardly the Vikings of my youth and I no longer had any allegiance to them. Like, who are you going to want to dance with, your wife or an ex-girlfriend

    Besides, as a matter of principle I never root for a domed stadium team in the SB
    "There is no plan B. Plan A is to win the Super Bowl" - John Elway
    PLAN A ACCOMPLISHED 2/7/16!!!

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis.1960 View Post
    Haha, no I was a Vikings fan from '69 to '83 then came over to the Broncos on blizzard night in '84, though still stuck in Raider/Niners territory the whole time until 2013. Being a Viking fan in Raider/Niner territory wasn't much fun either especially after the Raiders destroyed the Vikings in SB XI.

    I actually laughed about that when it looked like the Vikings were going to beat the Falcons and go to SB33. I think I would have liked the symmetry of seeing my current favorite and old favorite both in the SB, but the Vikings of 1998 were hardly the Vikings of my youth and I no longer had any allegiance to them. Like, who are you going to want to dance with, your wife or an ex-girlfriend

    Besides, as a matter of principle I never root for a domed stadium team in the SB
    Did you mean "doomed"?


  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis.1960 View Post
    Thanks, I love reminiscing about that game! In the grand scheme of things a mid October Monday night game against a non-conference opponent wasn't crucial (though in '84 we came into the game 5-1 and ran the table with consecutive wins to 11-1) but it will always be one of my favorite Bronco games of all time and the night I became a fan

    Back to mobile QB's...Very good point. Similar thing happened to Russell Wilson last week. Nowhere to throw so he took off running and did his usual baseball slide to avoid contact...his knee hit a bad part of the field and stuck and bounced rather than slid ripping up a huge chuck of sod. Definitely looked like it could have been a serious knee injury but turned out he was fine. Then again, I don't know if it's any safer staying in the pocket while 300+ pound destruction machines come after your head and knees!
    This might be my last point (in our little discussion)….but yes, standing still for crazy, athletic big men to jump on your back, or tackle you low, is a very dangerous sport. That's another reason why the elusive/athletic/passer QB has a better chance, long term. I know that elusive and mobile and even athletic are not all synonyms, but I believe they are overlapping subsets of the theme. And for me, an elusive QB is like an elusive hockey player, who seems to hardly ever get hit head on. These are often high level players, who go into corners where bad things can happen, but know exactly when and how to turn away, therefore maybe only receiving a partial body check. In fact, opponents often get the worse of it, as they hit boards instead of player.

    And when you are elusive, you can extend situations, and cause opponents nightmares. Think of how many defenders have "almost" got to Wilson over the years. Almost sucks!!! Plus it makes you rethink your attack, as in, you can not go 100% forward most of the time. You have to either slow down, or get ready to pivot. It changes your mindset. Whereas a more rigid QB does not extend plays, and can often be hit by just going straight at him.

    So clearly, athleticism is always a good thing, at any position.
    Last edited by CanDB; 09-21-2019 at 10:39 AM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanDB View Post
    Did you mean "doomed"?

    Same thing apparently
    "There is no plan B. Plan A is to win the Super Bowl" - John Elway
    PLAN A ACCOMPLISHED 2/7/16!!!

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis.1960 View Post
    Same thing apparently
    Hey Dennis, if nothing else I come away with a greater appreciation of your background, and the very interesting parallels in our football lives.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanDB View Post
    Hey Dennis, if nothing else I come away with a greater appreciation of your background, and the very interesting parallels in our football lives.
    Further, as much as I like good drop back passers, I'd be excited to have a Mahomes or Watson on our team. Make plays in the air and on the ground, extend plays, keep Ds off balance. These guys have all the tools, and they are so very young. As for Lamar, I am not quite there yet, because he does look like a run first guy, but he has made great strides in just one offseason, and in time, might be an MVP.
    Last edited by CanDB; 09-21-2019 at 05:37 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rastic View Post
    I though it was Orton who was rum first.
    Lol. Well played.
    http://s7.postimg.org/hjr8fcmaz/EM2.jpg

    Adopted Bronco: Andy Janovich

  15. #30
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    As luck would have it, Mahomes against Jackson today.....apparently in the rain. If the rain continues, lets see what their versatility can bring to the game. Knowing them, I would not rule out a high scoring game. Playing receiver, I didn't mind wet conditions, because you make a move and the defender has to combat the deke and the wetness. Same applies to elusive QBs. They can run well in these conditions, and they should be able to find open receivers.

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