View Poll Results: Should John Elway be fired?

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  • Yes

    61 54.95%
  • No

    50 45.05%
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  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by arapaho View Post
    Ya some fans suck as Fans, pick their blame and never stop, don’t consider every aspect, just blame

    About as sucky as fans wanting to get rid of all the talent on the team so we lose, I cannot handle that losers mentality

    This place is diminishing in its appeal very quickly
    How many NFL rosters across the league are stacked? Every GM is working with what they’ve got.

    There is one common denominator in denver the last 4 years, accept it.

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    First, his path to the NFL ranks is somewhat unusual. Without spending many years in the league he’s earned respect from other coaches. He was relatively unknown when Fangio met with him at the combine a couple years back. Saleh and Fangio praised him for detailed knowledge of defensive schemes. Fangio hasn’t proven himself as a head however he is respected as a DC and teacher. Fangio noting Scangarello’s attention to detail (well before being hired in Denver) says a lot IMO.

    Players and coaches have said he possesses the skill to teach complex plays in a way they understand. In my opinion a bright person is someone who can simplify complex concepts. The way he helped a patchwork of young quarterbacks be productive with the 49ers said a lot about him.

    I recall most here saying it would take time for him to excel as a rookie OC. He’s running the offense Elway wants. If he had the room to deviate more then we might see some of the things you mentioned. The Broncos have also played from behind for the most part with the exception of last Sunday. As we know playing from behind lends itself to lack of balance with more pass plays.
    Having a high opinion of someone based on their understanding of something, and being good in theory is one thing. Being well practised and experienced on the practical application of a task is a whole different animal. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you should never hire a new coordinator or someone who is inexperienced, but I believe you need some track record at a lower level, or in a different arena at the very least to be qualified, I don't think Scrangerello was.

    Being a good teacher is great as well, and I didn't actually know players had raved about him in that regard, but as fans we can only really judge the end product, the on the field play, and it's hard to know if these things are true or not when it's happening behind closed doors. I disagree though that Scrangerello is doing what Elway wants, he is running his style of offense, and it doesn't even suit the personel he has, ie. Joe Flacco.

    Are you not sick of seeing the naked bootleg plays and play-action passing game to the right side of the field ? This offense is best executed when you have a guy who can get to the edge quickly and threaten to take off and run, it sucks the linebackers up creating passing lanes over the top, and Joe cannot do that. I think you can cherry pick a bunch of plays to say look, these are great calls, like the seam play to the tight-end on the opening drive today, but you can look at so many more times it's failing to work.

    I also don't like that in order to try and generate second half offense the last 2 weeks, Scrangerello has gone back to it time and time again, getting no positive results from it. I understand it's a staple of the offense, but it's not working at a high clip. But, my biggest issue with the offense has been the lack of balance, and last week there was no excuse for it. I don't think we have been in a position in any game this year where we have had to abandon the run game due to falling behind. Yes, we have been behind, but 1 possession, not 21 plus points or anything close to that. We need to put the ball in our 2 solid running backs hands and lean on them consistently in my opinion.

    I also wish we looked to move Lindsay around more and design some plays to get him the ball quickly, we are wasting a dynamic asset. Lindsay should be catching passes out on the edge, getting screen plays from out wide, from being a split back, from the tail of the I, every position we should be trying to get him the ball in space, but we don't, and I don't understand it. I think Lindsay and Freeman are capable of combining for over 200 plus total yards per game, every game, and I think game plan wise that should be the goal, because they can power this offense.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    That’s a good take on what Elway lacked to succeed beyond Manning.
    Except for the fact Elway proved that to be untrue when he saw the 2013 and 2014 teams than made the needed changes in players and coaches to win the 2015 Super Bowl.



    Winning and losing is about more than one player.

    You have seemed to prove my point about you in your response thinking winning is all about PM
    Champ Bailey is the only player in NFL history to earn 200+ (203) Passes Defended
    Terrell Davis is 3rd all time in rushing yards per game (97.5)

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    How many NFL rosters across the league are stacked? Every GM is working with what they’ve got.

    There is one common denominator in denver the last 4 years, accept it.
    Last 4 years

    You are correct...3 years and 8 months ago...we added the third one of these under Elway the GM

    Champ Bailey is the only player in NFL history to earn 200+ (203) Passes Defended
    Terrell Davis is 3rd all time in rushing yards per game (97.5)

  5. #365
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    No, deserves to finish his contract. Build team around Fangio’s defense and Scangerello’s offensive schemes gonna take more than 5 weeks.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by 58Miller View Post
    No, deserves to finish his contract. Build team around Fangio’s defense and Scangerello’s offensive schemes gonna take more than 5 weeks.
    Agreed

    Unfortunately two years of Vance came with price in culture and chemistry

    Not only will it probably take the coaches time to teach their game plans but the coaches also have to teach this team how to win again.

    Vic and staff deserve time with Elway as GM to try and turn this around.
    Champ Bailey is the only player in NFL history to earn 200+ (203) Passes Defended
    Terrell Davis is 3rd all time in rushing yards per game (97.5)

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadez View Post
    Agreed

    Unfortunately two years of Vance came with price in culture and chemistry

    Not only will it probably take the coaches time to teach their game plans but the coaches also have to teach this team how to win again.

    Vic and staff deserve time with Elway as GM to try and turn this around.
    Elway took a chance on VJ and it set us back. This offseason we should have a lot of cap space and Fangio and Scangerello will have a better idea of what positions need to be upgraded the most. The culture and identity are this teams biggest issues right now, todays win hopefully becomes contagious and doesn’t allow guys to relax

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by 58Miller View Post
    Elway took a chance on VJ and it set us back. This offseason we should have a lot of cap space and Fangio and Scangerello will have a better idea of what positions need to be upgraded the most. The culture and identity are this teams biggest issues right now, todays win hopefully becomes contagious and doesn’t allow guys to relax
    IMO the team should target a good vet leader in the off season. This is probably some hope smoke but my ideal guy would be Danny Trevathan. He knows Vic's defense and he has been a good leader since college days according to his college coach.
    Champ Bailey is the only player in NFL history to earn 200+ (203) Passes Defended
    Terrell Davis is 3rd all time in rushing yards per game (97.5)

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadez View Post
    Except for the fact Elway proved that to be untrue when he saw the 2013 and 2014 teams than made the needed changes in players and coaches to win the 2015 Super Bowl.



    Winning and losing is about more than one player.

    You have seemed to prove my point about you in your response thinking winning is all about PM
    Beyond Manning means after his retirement and that should be obvious. Under Elway the Broncos share the worst winning % following a Super Bowl.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadez View Post
    IMO the team should target a good vet leader in the off season. This is probably some hope smoke but my ideal guy would be Danny Trevathan. He knows Vic's defense and he has been a good leader since college days according to his college coach.
    Yeah hopefully we bring him back, he’d be the best ILB since ......himself lol!
    I really liked Kareem Jackson at safety makes a huge difference especially in run support.

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Having a high opinion of someone based on their understanding of something, and being good in theory is one thing. Being well practised and experienced on the practical application of a task is a whole different animal. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you should never hire a new coordinator or someone who is inexperienced, but I believe you need some track record at a lower level, or in a different arena at the very least to be qualified, I don't think Scrangerello was.

    Being a good teacher is great as well, and I didn't actually know players had raved about him in that regard, but as fans we can only really judge the end product, the on the field play, and it's hard to know if these things are true or not when it's happening behind closed doors. I disagree though that Scrangerello is doing what Elway wants, he is running his style of offense, and it doesn't even suit the personel he has, ie. Joe Flacco.

    Are you not sick of seeing the naked bootleg plays and play-action passing game to the right side of the field ? This offense is best executed when you have a guy who can get to the edge quickly and threaten to take off and run, it sucks the linebackers up creating passing lanes over the top, and Joe cannot do that. I think you can cherry pick a bunch of plays to say look, these are great calls, like the seam play to the tight-end on the opening drive today, but you can look at so many more times it's failing to work.

    I also don't like that in order to try and generate second half offense the last 2 weeks, Scrangerello has gone back to it time and time again, getting no positive results from it. I understand it's a staple of the offense, but it's not working at a high clip. But, my biggest issue with the offense has been the lack of balance, and last week there was no excuse for it. I don't think we have been in a position in any game this year where we have had to abandon the run game due to falling behind. Yes, we have been behind, but 1 possession, not 21 plus points or anything close to that. We need to put the ball in our 2 solid running backs hands and lean on them consistently in my opinion.

    I also wish we looked to move Lindsay around more and design some plays to get him the ball quickly, we are wasting a dynamic asset. Lindsay should be catching passes out on the edge, getting screen plays from out wide, from being a split back, from the tail of the I, every position we should be trying to get him the ball in space, but we don't, and I don't understand it. I think Lindsay and Freeman are capable of combining for over 200 plus total yards per game, every game, and I think game plan wise that should be the goal, because they can power this offense.
    When the Broncos jumped out to a 14 point lead in two possessions I don’t recall anyone questioning the play calls. The score would have been 21-0 if not for Bolles best impression of a turnstile when Flacco was stripped. The offense had 191 yards rushing which is using your best weapons in Lindsay/Freeman (184). Lindsay had 4 receptions for 33 yards/8.3 per reception and 114 yards rushing. There were a lot of plays left on the field or checked down due to poor protection by Wilkinson, Bolles and Leary. Scangarello’s play calls won’t makeup for the shortcomings of Wilkinson/Bolles. I’ll agree there are opportunities for Scangarello to improve. I had modest expectations of him knowing this is his first OC role.

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Deciding to re-sign Brandon Marshall over him for the amount Elway did was one of his biggest mistakes as the General Manager. Danny Trevathan was so underated while he was here, but was quickly missed once he was gone. I will say though, Alex Johnson in his first extended playing time today looked like a legitimate play-maker and potential difference maker, the man could have had multiple picks today, and he looked far superior to Josey Jewell out there, he has me excited.
    Johnson put full effort on every play. He was projected as a fairly high pick coming out of Tennessee before he ran into legal troubles. He worked as an MMA fighter to survive. After being exonerated he got an opportunity with the Broncos.

  13. #373
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    Deciding to re-sign Brandon Marshall over him for the amount Elway did was one of his biggest mistakes as the General Manager. Danny Trevathan was so underated while he was here, but was quickly missed once he was gone. I will say though, Alex Johnson in his first extended playing time today looked like a legitimate play-maker and potential difference maker, the man could have had multiple picks today, and he looked far superior to Josey Jewell out there, he has me excited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    When the Broncos jumped out to a 14 point lead in two possessions I don’t recall anyone questioning the play calls. The score would have been 21-0 if not for Bolles best impression of a turnstile when Flacco was stripped. The offense had 191 yards rushing which is using your best weapons in Lindsay/Freeman (184). Lindsay had 4 receptions for 33 yards/8.3 per reception and 114 yards rushing. There were a lot of plays left on the field or checked down due to poor protection by Wilkinson, Bolles and Leary. Scangarello’s play calls won’t makeup for the shortcomings of Wilkinson/Bolles. I’ll agree there are opportunities for Scangarello to improve. I had modest expectations of him knowing this is his first OC role.
    The window of time for people to whinge while we were up 14 points was about 45 minutes. Now, I am not someone who blames the bad play of on offense on coaches, I usually lean on the side of blaming the players, especially when we have limited talent on the offensive line. But really, outside of a beautifully scripted opening drive, the offense hit one chunk play to Sutton which was a great individual effort, and a run play here or there for movement, but for the most part we were stalled for majority of the last 3 quarters of the game. Not blaming that on just the coaches for clarification, but I would like to see something else than the same old naked bootleg with a quarterback who can't run them effectively, try something else.

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    Beyond Manning means after his retirement and that should be obvious. Under Elway the Broncos share the worst winning % following a Super Bowl.
    We went 9-7 post PM after winning the Super Bowl

    TB went 7-9 and 5-11 after winning the Super Bowl win

    Ravens went 8-8 after a Super Bowl win

    Giants went 9-7 after a Super Bowl win and then went on to have 3 losing seasons

    My guess the only reason we do not have more examples is because of the Patriots Dynasty
    Champ Bailey is the only player in NFL history to earn 200+ (203) Passes Defended
    Terrell Davis is 3rd all time in rushing yards per game (97.5)

  15. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    The window of time for people to whinge while we were up 14 points was about 45 minutes. Now, I am not someone who blames the bad play of on offense on coaches, I usually lean on the side of blaming the players, especially when we have limited talent on the offensive line. But really, outside of a beautifully scripted opening drive, the offense hit one chunk play to Sutton which was a great individual effort, and a run play here or there for movement, but for the most part we were stalled for majority of the last 3 quarters of the game. Not blaming that on just the coaches for clarification, but I would like to see something else than the same old naked bootleg with a quarterback who can't run them effectively, try something else.
    Let’s not be so quick to dismiss the scripted opening drive for a TD. Those were still Scangarello’s plays on the script. Secondly, the chunk play you mentioned was the type of play many fans have called for, using Flacco’s arm strength to stretch the field. Those two drives accounted for 156 yards.

    The offense had 217 more yards which exceeds the production of the opening two drives. The strip allowed by Bolles prevented a TD. McManus missed a FG. The offense had a drive approaching the red zone stalled by a holding call. The offense stalled on another good drive due to the penalty on Risner.

    Scangarello also had to be somewhat conservative due to the poor decisions by Spencer to field punts on the 5 yard line.

    As far as the naked bootlegs where Flacco actually attempted passes, there was one in the 1st half and three in the second half. I don’t think four in a game is as much of an issue you’re making of it.

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