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  1. #16
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    FORT COLLINS COLORADO
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    7,792
    Quote Originally Posted by KWHIT97 View Post
    If we can get a 2nd or 3rd for Harris, do it. He’s not resigning here, plain and simple.

    If we can get a 3rd or 4th out of Sanders, do it. He’s not resigning either.

    I wouldn’t trade Von unless someone offers a deal close to what the Raiders got for Mack. Otherwise keep him at 18 million per for the next couple of years.
    your dreaming at those values. we will be lucky to get a 3rd in a compensatory pick. we would be lucky to get a 6-7 for any of those guys

    oakland raders gm
    latavis murray trade bait

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    california
    Posts
    2,039
    We should be able to get a 3rd or 4th for CHJ. He shuts people down and hes better then people around here give him credit for . He just shut down one of the best wr in the league .

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    the treasure valley, Idaho
    Posts
    16,123
    If we win 2 more before the deadline it’s unlikely anyone gets moved

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    california
    Posts
    2,039
    If theres no way sanders or CHJ are on the team next year we have to trade .

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    B-more, not less
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    4,981
    I don't really understand the rush to tear everything down.


    We are two last second FG, helped by roughing the passer penalties, away from being 3-2 and one game out of first in our division.

    Big rebuilds are usually for teams who have zero hope of even being competitive. Yes it never feels great when you have a 6-10, 7-9 team and you think, gosh why couldn't we have just got rid of everyone, have a fire sale and go 2-14 and then have a ton of draft picks and be ready to turn things around instantly.

    Well those rebuilds never happen instantly. Look at Cleveland who had the good fortune of top ten picks consistently and often multiple first rounders. It took them many years until they found the right QB. And even then there's no guarantee they become contenders.


    We are not at a spot where giving away all our veteran talent will help us in the next few seasons. If you think tanking this season will lead to a quick turnaround next season it won't. Quick turnarounds can happen but it more often just comes from a fluke in the process of finding talent. Yes having more draft picks can be helpful but it's no guarantee that the player you draft in the 2nd and 3rd round end up being All Pro's immediately. When that does happen those do lead to the turnaround and sustained success.

    End point: Rebuilding by getting rid of all vets doesn't necessarily guarantee the rebuild will be successful or fast. It might happen many years later independent of the moves that led to the tear down of talent.

    Right now Miller is still a big part of this team. I'd love if Harris can stay around for another 3-4 years.

    We are not that far away from contending. 1-4 is not good but we lost 2 games by less than a FG. We just beat LA at their place. We've yet to see what we can do against KC.

    Not saying we are going to get to the playoffs, but a team that knows how to win and practices winning is in much better position than a team that gets rid of veteran leadership and has a bunch of young talented guys who have no idea how to win in this league. Because they might not figure it out in time and those young talents become more expensive vets and before you know it you need to restart the process again.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    32,711
    Quote Originally Posted by CTM View Post
    I don't really understand the rush to tear everything down.


    We are two last second FG, helped by roughing the passer penalties, away from being 3-2 and one game out of first in our division.

    Big rebuilds are usually for teams who have zero hope of even being competitive. Yes it never feels great when you have a 6-10, 7-9 team and you think, gosh why couldn't we have just got rid of everyone, have a fire sale and go 2-14 and then have a ton of draft picks and be ready to turn things around instantly.

    Well those rebuilds never happen instantly. Look at Cleveland who had the good fortune of top ten picks consistently and often multiple first rounders. It took them many years until they found the right QB. And even then there's no guarantee they become contenders.


    We are not at a spot where giving away all our veteran talent will help us in the next few seasons. If you think tanking this season will lead to a quick turnaround next season it won't. Quick turnarounds can happen but it more often just comes from a fluke in the process of finding talent. Yes having more draft picks can be helpful but it's no guarantee that the player you draft in the 2nd and 3rd round end up being All Pro's immediately. When that does happen those do lead to the turnaround and sustained success.

    End point: Rebuilding by getting rid of all vets doesn't necessarily guarantee the rebuild will be successful or fast. It might happen many years later independent of the moves that led to the tear down of talent.

    Right now Miller is still a big part of this team. I'd love if Harris can stay around for another 3-4 years.

    We are not that far away from contending. 1-4 is not good but we lost 2 games by less than a FG. We just beat LA at their place. We've yet to see what we can do against KC.

    Not saying we are going to get to the playoffs, but a team that knows how to win and practices winning is in much better position than a team that gets rid of veteran leadership and has a bunch of young talented guys who have no idea how to win in this league. Because they might not figure it out in time and those young talents become more expensive vets and before you know it you need to restart the process again.
    This is a good post. I'll admit that I do want changes, and that includes moving any vets that don't fit in from a leadership perspective...especially if they are moving past their prime. The capital asset loss becomes significant once the decline sets in.

    But though I want change (QB beyond this year, Oline upgrade, Interior D), I concur, I do not want change for the sake of change. If a vet has value on and off the field, keep 'em. I don't know the depth of what goes on in the LR, or in practice, but our leadership does, so they should be able to judge what each vet brings to the table. As is often the case, each of us has a value, and respective of pro athletes, a trade value. If a guy like CHJ is an excellent mentor, his value is higher than we even know. But if he is a wee bit toxic (and I am not sure if that is truth), then we might get a good deal for him, because he is just a player at that point, and replacement value may be hard to say no to.

    I believe Von is that guy, a team leader, and a source of energy for all. Therefore he is worth a load, to us. At some point there are intangibles as well, and it would be hard to fully appreciate Von til he was actually gone.

    But I see changes. And as many have noted, perhaps in management.

    And I am glad for the team that they came away with a victory, because they must have felt a bit shortchanged given how close two of those games were. I am sure they want to win even more than we want them to.
    Last edited by CanDB; 10-07-2019 at 11:37 AM.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    842
    Quote Originally Posted by dipablo View Post
    Why would you do that to the Avs man? they are actually good
    That's the problem...I'm a Blues haha

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    5,649
    Quote Originally Posted by KWHIT97 View Post
    If we can get a 2nd or 3rd for Harris, do it. He’s not resigning here, plain and simple.

    If we can get a 3rd or 4th out of Sanders, do it. He’s not resigning either.

    I wouldn’t trade Von unless someone offers a deal close to what the Raiders got for Mack. Otherwise keep him at 18 million per for the next couple of years.
    If we got a 2nd for Harris then take it. I'd also argue that getting a 3rd (non comp pick) would be worth it as well. Anything worse than that I'd think that Harris would get signed to a good enough contract elsewhere that we'd likely get a 3rd or at worse a 4th comp pick for him. 3rd or 4th for Sanders is fair as well. I'd also think that we'd be wise to trade Leary, MCGovern, Davis (ILB).

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    5,649
    Quote Originally Posted by CTM View Post
    I don't really understand the rush to tear everything down.


    We are two last second FG, helped by roughing the passer penalties, away from being 3-2 and one game out of first in our division.

    Big rebuilds are usually for teams who have zero hope of even being competitive. Yes it never feels great when you have a 6-10, 7-9 team and you think, gosh why couldn't we have just got rid of everyone, have a fire sale and go 2-14 and then have a ton of draft picks and be ready to turn things around instantly.

    Well those rebuilds never happen instantly. Look at Cleveland who had the good fortune of top ten picks consistently and often multiple first rounders. It took them many years until they found the right QB. And even then there's no guarantee they become contenders.


    We are not at a spot where giving away all our veteran talent will help us in the next few seasons. If you think tanking this season will lead to a quick turnaround next season it won't. Quick turnarounds can happen but it more often just comes from a fluke in the process of finding talent. Yes having more draft picks can be helpful but it's no guarantee that the player you draft in the 2nd and 3rd round end up being All Pro's immediately. When that does happen those do lead to the turnaround and sustained success.

    End point: Rebuilding by getting rid of all vets doesn't necessarily guarantee the rebuild will be successful or fast. It might happen many years later independent of the moves that led to the tear down of talent.

    Right now Miller is still a big part of this team. I'd love if Harris can stay around for another 3-4 years.

    We are not that far away from contending. 1-4 is not good but we lost 2 games by less than a FG. We just beat LA at their place. We've yet to see what we can do against KC.

    Not saying we are going to get to the playoffs, but a team that knows how to win and practices winning is in much better position than a team that gets rid of veteran leadership and has a bunch of young talented guys who have no idea how to win in this league. Because they might not figure it out in time and those young talents become more expensive vets and before you know it you need to restart the process again.
    The issue with our team is pretty simple. We drafted so poorly from 2012 to 2017 that we have been unable to replenish and rebuild organically. As a result our team is moderately competitive but ultimately not good. We also reached in a big way for Lynch in the 1st and we moved on from players like Talib when we never really had the right talent to fill in for them.

    I also have no idea how anyone can say "We are sooo close". We are no where near it.

    - We have no CBs to speak of to play man-to-man when we need to
    - We have one Safety who is good (Jackson)
    - We desperately need a big time NT/DT
    - We need a bigger OC
    - We need a bigger and better LT & RT
    - We need an OG to replace Leary


    Oh yea....we also need the most important position on the field---a QB. IF that list doesn't scream rebuild then I do not know what does?


    Also last but not least. The QB position I mentioned above. There is a reason why the most successful teams in the NFL all have top tier QBs. It forces the other players in the other areas on their team to play better. It forces accountability. Much like the MLB position on the defense. Because both of those positions setup the success of the team if those players go their jobs and do it to an elite level - everyone else around them is forced to elevate their game. The players keep talking about doing it for the team. Ultimately the great players do it all for themselves. Internal motivation. What you need is the best leaders on the team to force the other guys to elevate their game based on external motivation because they are incapable of internally motivating themselves. We are missing BOTH of those critical leaders on our team. Joe is making to many errors and mistakes to command that type of respect on our team. On top of that we have no real and true leader on the defensive side of the ball. Von is close but from what I can tell Von is a "Watch this" or "Here is how it is done" type of a leader. I have not seen or heard Von tear a guy apart for not doing his job nor have I seen him try and "rally the troops".

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