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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by JW7 View Post
    Lots of postulating done here. To assume that Elway has nothing to do with his late hits and UDFA is ridiculous.

    I guess if you're going to assume that, can we place the blame on McCoy for banging the table for Bolles or Kollar doing the same for Gotsis? Or were these strictly Elway decisions in your eyes because they were early picks.

    A gm should be graded on the whole building of a team. Sure, area scouts help and do the dirty work but thinking a gm should be judged on the first 3 rounds of the draft is one of the most absurd things I've seen posted on these boards.

    I'm sure Elway signs off on every move and I'm sure he had a hand in signing players like Johnson, CHJ, Travathan, Jackson, etc.
    I am not saying that he hasn't had anything to do with it, obviously he has the final say so on every decision, hence he receives the blame for everything negative, and the praise for everything positive, depending on which side if the fence you want to argue. I personally look at each different situation and form an opinion from one story to the next, but based on how the draft the process works, it's how I personally believe in grading a General Manager.

    And yes, I believe that a General Manager should be more so graded on those early round picks. I think you are taking my post as an attack on Elway, it's just how I personally feel it should be graded based on how I know the process works. I do agree that overall team building and strategy is how a General Manager should be graded though, and that is why overall, Elway in my opinion should be graded poorly. I think that's the consensus out there for everyone who has taken the emotion out of it, ie. everyone but Broncos fans who despise anyone talking negatively of the favourite son.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    I am not saying that he hasn't had anything to do with it, obviously he has the final say so on every decision, hence he receives the blame for everything negative, and the praise for everything positive, depending on which side if the fence you want to argue. I personally look at each different situation and form an opinion from one story to the next, but based on how the draft the process works, it's how I personally believe in grading a General Manager.

    And yes, I believe that a General Manager should be more so graded on those early round picks. I think you are taking my post as an attack on Elway, it's just how I personally feel it should be graded based on how I know the process works. I do agree that overall team building and strategy is how a General Manager should be graded though, and that is why overall, Elway in my opinion should be graded poorly. I think that's the consensus out there for everyone who has taken the emotion out of it, ie. everyone but Broncos fans who despise anyone talking negatively of the favourite son.
    And yet you're here trying to discredit his late round hits.

    If you want to grade a GM on the first three rounds, let's take a look at Bill Belichick. He by all calculations is a horrendous drafter in the first three rounds, even worse than Elway but he is regarded as one of the best GMs in football.

    What I'm getting at is a GM needs to be judged on the whole construction of the team, the whole draft, Free Agency and trades. I agree that Elway deserves some of the heat that is on him right now, especially with some of his picks in rounds 1-3 but give credit where credit is due.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by JW7 View Post
    And yet you're here trying to discredit his late round hits.

    If you want to grade a GM on the first three rounds, let's take a look at Bill Belichick. He by all calculations is a horrendous drafter in the first three rounds, even worse than Elway but he is regarded as one of the best GMs in football.

    What I'm getting at is a GM needs to be judged on the whole construction of the team, the whole draft, Free Agency and trades. I agree that Elway deserves some of the heat that is on him right now, especially with some of his picks in rounds 1-3 but give credit where credit is due.
    I think Belichick is a terrible drafter, but heís also the coach so he can reach and it wonít matter because he can personally oversee their development and get them in best spot to succeed. Elway seems more like heís trying to make others in the draft room happy by letting guys like McCoy and Kollar get the guys they want and also trying to get guys he likes.

    But the biggest issue isnít whoís being drafted IMO. Itís the coaching staffs heís hired. He seems to favor experience there with guys like Fox, JDR, Wade, Munchak, etc. But more often than not these coordinators arenít fitting properly. Even with this staff we have a power guy in Munchak but the OC comes from the zone tree so he has to bring in Kuper as well but weíre not really seeing a ton of improvement along the oline from week 1 to now. This has been a constant theme with the oline his entire tenure, even down to player acquisitions. Leary was great in a power scheme, he canít play in the zone scheme. Schofield was more of a zone blocker, Garcia fit better in a power scheme. Itís a mix and match get who you get and make it work that has led to this state along the oline. Then factor in the constant turnover at QB along with offensive schemes and you have a recipe for a pitiful offense.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    I think Belichick is a terrible drafter, but heís also the coach so he can reach and it wonít matter because he can personally oversee their development and get them in best spot to succeed. Elway seems more like heís trying to make others in the draft room happy by letting guys like McCoy and Kollar get the guys they want and also trying to get guys he likes.

    But the biggest issue isnít whoís being drafted IMO. Itís the coaching staffs heís hired. He seems to favor experience there with guys like Fox, JDR, Wade, Munchak, etc. But more often than not these coordinators arenít fitting properly. Even with this staff we have a power guy in Munchak but the OC comes from the zone tree so he has to bring in Kuper as well but weíre not really seeing a ton of improvement along the oline from week 1 to now. This has been a constant theme with the oline his entire tenure, even down to player acquisitions. Leary was great in a power scheme, he canít play in the zone scheme. Schofield was more of a zone blocker, Garcia fit better in a power scheme. Itís a mix and match get who you get and make it work that has led to this state along the oline. Then factor in the constant turnover at QB along with offensive schemes and you have a recipe for a pitiful offense.
    IDK. Leary isn't a good puller which, for a Guard, is requirement in an angle blocked rushing attack.

    Most teams use both angle blocks and zone steps in their rushing attack. Dave Magazu used both about 50/50 and Kuper played in that offense.

    Most FBS schools run Spread Option which is zone, but different from Alex Gibbs' Zone Series. If a team intends to draft an O-Lineman from a Spread Option offense to play in an O that uses both zone and angle, it would take a pretty astute and observant scout/coach to predict if the player's game would translate and if he would be coachable.

    IMO it's easier to teach zone steps to an angle blocker than the other way around. Unfortunately college football isn't producing nearly as many angle blockers as they are zone steppers.

    I recall seeing Garrett Bolles doing some good pulling on his college highlight video. Some want to see him at G and that might indicate it could be a successful shuffle. If they had a viable option at LT right now, they could try it. Unfortunately there isn't anyone better, or even as good, on the roster at the moment. A starting LT is top priority in the Draft IMO even if they have to trade up.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    IDK. Leary isn't a good puller which, for a Guard, is requirement in an angle blocked rushing attack.

    Most teams use both angle blocks and zone steps in their rushing attack. Dave Magazu used both about 50/50 and Kuper played in that offense.

    Most FBS schools run Spread Option which is zone, but different from Alex Gibbs' Zone Series. If a team intends to draft an O-Lineman from a Spread Option offense to play in an O that uses both zone and angle, it would take a pretty astute and observant scout/coach to predict if the player's game would translate and if he would be coachable.

    IMO it's easier to teach zone steps to an angle blocker than the other way around. Unfortunately college football isn't producing nearly as many angle blockers as they are zone steppers.

    I recall seeing Garrett Bolles doing some good pulling on his college highlight video. Some want to see him at G and that might indicate it could be a successful shuffle. If they had a viable option at LT right now, they could try it. Unfortunately there isn't anyone better, or even as good, on the roster at the moment. A starting LT is top priority in the Draft IMO even if they have to trade up.
    Leary isnít a good puller but he was a good down blocker from what I recall. Generally zone scheme linemen in a power or angle scheme are going to be the guy or guys you want pulling ala Zane Beadles here.

    Bolles could be good pulling at OG and he has the temperament to be excel there but his hand placement would continue to hold him back. Until he gets that corrected it wonít matter where he plays he will still get called for holding and heíll still get overpowered at the point of attack. I can understand him struggling with hand technique after the initial punch but the initial hand placement seems like it should be such an easy fix and while dlinemen do make it hard to get good placement Bolles initial punch is almost always aimed out wide and to exacerbate it heís developed this cocking back motion on top of it. Maybe being in a 3 point stance would help him out there so in that aspect it may help him at OG actually.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    Leary isnít a good puller but he was a good down blocker from what I recall. Generally zone scheme linemen in a power or angle scheme are going to be the guy or guys you want pulling ala Zane Beadles here.

    Bolles could be good pulling at OG and he has the temperament to be excel there but his hand placement would continue to hold him back. Until he gets that corrected it wonít matter where he plays he will still get called for holding and heíll still get overpowered at the point of attack. I can understand him struggling with hand technique after the initial punch but the initial hand placement seems like it should be such an easy fix and while dlinemen do make it hard to get good placement Bolles initial punch is almost always aimed out wide and to exacerbate it heís developed this cocking back motion on top of it. Maybe being in a 3 point stance would help him out there so in that aspect it may help him at OG actually.
    Right. The down block is the basis of an angle rushing attack. Orlando Franklin was a dominant down blocker. Chris Clark not so much. Rick Trickett said the down block is the most difficult.

    Dalton (aka "Route 66") has turned into quite the puller.
    Last edited by samparnell; 11-07-2019 at 11:34 AM.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Right. The down block is the basis of an angle rushing attack. Orlando Franklin was a dominant down blocker. Chris Clark not so much. Rick Trickett said the down block is the most difficult.

    Dalton (aka "Route 66") has turned into quite the puller.
    Orlando Franklin was a MONSTER run blocker. I've seen him pancake some DBs. It was his pass blocking that made him a liability and with PFM at QB, that was a big no no.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    I think Belichick is a terrible drafter, but he’s also the coach so he can reach and it won’t matter because he can personally oversee their development and get them in best spot to succeed. Elway seems more like he’s trying to make others in the draft room happy by letting guys like McCoy and Kollar get the guys they want and also trying to get guys he likes.

    But the biggest issue isn’t who’s being drafted IMO. It’s the coaching staffs he’s hired. He seems to favor experience there with guys like Fox, JDR, Wade, Munchak, etc. But more often than not these coordinators aren’t fitting properly. Even with this staff we have a power guy in Munchak but the OC comes from the zone tree so he has to bring in Kuper as well but we’re not really seeing a ton of improvement along the oline from week 1 to now. This has been a constant theme with the oline his entire tenure, even down to player acquisitions. Leary was great in a power scheme, he can’t play in the zone scheme. Schofield was more of a zone blocker, Garcia fit better in a power scheme. It’s a mix and match get who you get and make it work that has led to this state along the oline. Then factor in the constant turnover at QB along with offensive schemes and you have a recipe for a pitiful offense.
    munchek has ran a zone scheme on the steelers it just had changed a little since shanny did it.

    oakland raders gm
    latavis murray trade bait

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchAngel View Post
    Orlando Franklin was a MONSTER run blocker. I've seen him pancake some DBs. It was his pass blocking that made him a liability and with PFM at QB, that was a big no no.
    Clady was on IR in 2013 and Chris Clark was at LT. Pass protection had to slide to the left to help Chris and it made Orlando's pass pro look bad. In 2014 Orlando was moved to LG, Clady returned to LT and Chris Clark went to RT. Orlando did a great job at LG, but Chris was benched by mid-season.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by JW7 View Post
    And yet you're here trying to discredit his late round hits.

    If you want to grade a GM on the first three rounds, let's take a look at Bill Belichick. He by all calculations is a horrendous drafter in the first three rounds, even worse than Elway but he is regarded as one of the best GMs in football.

    What I'm getting at is a GM needs to be judged on the whole construction of the team, the whole draft, Free Agency and trades. I agree that Elway deserves some of the heat that is on him right now, especially with some of his picks in rounds 1-3 but give credit where credit is due.
    As I said, I will give credit to Elway, but ultimately those top 3 rounds are where I personally believe a General Manager should be most harshly judged, as they have the most input on those earlier picks. This isn't just how I look at Elway, I look at the position as a whole that way, I am not just criticising Elway on this. On Belichick, he is an extremely overrated General Manager due to the point you make. The narrative on Belichick is that he is an amazing General Manager, despite the results in these rounds you speak of not telling that story at all, I have been saying this for years. I do love how Belichick positions himself though by manipulating the board and such, but I credited Elway for that massively last year too.

  11. #131
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    Some cool things I liked about that

    PFFís Ben Linsey writes: ďSince (Week 5), all he has done is earn the highest overall grade of any defender in the AFC. Johnsonís 29 total tackles without a missed tackle are the most of any player in the league over the month of October, and despite being targeted 20 times as the primary coverage defender (sixth-most among linebackers over the last four weeks), Johnson is allowing just under six yards per target on those plays. Heís proving to Vic Fangio and company that he deserves a spot on the field.Ē


    Johnson isnít the only Denver player to earn praise. While San Franciscoís Nick Bosa has, far and away, the best pass-rush win rate for rookies last month ó an insane 24% ó Denverís Malik Reed and DreíMont Jones are second and third at 13%, apiece.
    All I want for Christmas is a Bronco QB controversy

  12. #132
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    That's What I am Talking About Way To Go AJ.....

  13. #133
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    That's What I am Talking About Way To Go AJ.....

    PFF’s Ben Linsey writes: “Since (Week 5), all he has done is earn the highest overall grade of any defender in the AFC. Johnson’s 29 total tackles without a missed tackle are the most of any player in the league over the month of October, and despite being targeted 20 times as the primary coverage defender (sixth-most among linebackers over the last four weeks), Johnson is allowing just under six yards per target on those plays. He’s proving to Vic Fangio and company that he deserves a spot on the field.”


    Johnson isn’t the only Denver player to earn praise. While San Francisco’s Nick Bosa has, far and away, the best pass-rush win rate for rookies last month — an insane 24% — Denver’s Malik Reed and Dre’Mont Jones are second and third at 13%, apiece.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadez View Post
    Some cool things I liked about that
    Yeah AJ is paying well and the stats seem to show he's playing at a Pro Bowl level. He's always around the ball and gets there with an attitude.

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