So now we're seeing how much of a raw deal Vance got.

[L.M.]

This thread is still going?

Cherry picking stats and arguing schemantics cannot make VJ a good coach. - real riveting stuff though

The ONLY thing I can say about this team, unlike the last three years I see hope.

Exactly.

[Fantaztic7]

I don't like to to play the what if game. Fangio has decades of success as a coach in this league. VJ has had zero years of success as a coach in this league.

I like he way the team is competing under Fangio and feel they are on the right path. His past successes as a coach should absolutely be considered. Why do you feel this is meaningless?

Decades of prior success is meaningless if he can’t translate to success as a HC. The team is competing in spots while playing poorly and collapsing in others. The defense folded in four games with yesterday’s collapse as the worst example. People can talk about a bad call here and there but the fact is that they aren’t getting it done.

[Lumiere]

I agree.

Also this is Fangio's first year and he inherited a 6-10 team. VJ got a 9-7 team one year removed from SB50. At this point in VJ's first year 2017 the win total was the same but we were in the midst of an historic 8-game losing streak having suffered blowout losses (to the P*triots, Eagles, etc.) a humiliating shutout at the hands of the Chargers, and VJ was completely lost and in over his head as the team spiraled down and totally out of control.

Because Fangio at least knows defense better than VJ, he got that unit turned around and they were playing at a high level (and highly ranked as a result) in the last few games (the D actually got a shutout) up until the second half of yesterday's match when it appeared to have gone home early. At the same time though, keeping an offense as good as the Vikings down -in their yard- as long as they did was no small feat, and it was inevitable that Kubiak would figure it out and get Diggs involved more. The Vikings are a hot team who had just pulled out an astonishing win @Dallas, so sometimes credit simply must be given to the other team and its players more so than leveling blame for not stopping them.

Under VJ, I think that the Broncos would entered the game @MIN less prepared and it would have been a blowout loss which some were predicting to happen anyway. This year the losses have been close (except with KC) and in some cases decided by poor officiating more than total ineptitude. The team has been mostly competitive which makes me a helluva lot more optimistic about next year than the very bleak outlook we all had back in November of 2017. I don't know how anyone can forget that! The team was a total disaster!

But yeah there's some rookie coaching mistakes and growing pains with Fange & Scange too and we really need to see how they adjust. Probably a more accurate and fair comparison can be made with VJ after 2020 with two full seasons to look at, but at this point in time Fangio seems to have the edge.

Cardinals have the fourth worst defense in the league looking at yards per average. Looking at points allowed, they're the worst defense in the league. Vance is failing as DC in Arizona.

They should be thankful he's not their head coach.

I echo the sentiment of "hope" residing with Fangio (at the present time), despite our record. VJ is about to be demoted again, and the difference is fairly obvious.

[Butler By'Note]

Decades of prior success is meaningless if he can’t translate to success as a HC. The team is competing in spots while playing poorly and collapsing in others. The defense folded in four games with yesterday’s collapse as the worst example. People can talk about a bad call here and there but the fact is that they aren’t getting it done.

Is it a coaching problem or a player problem? On defense I think it's a player problem. One is technique and not ability, that's Johnson was showing his blitz too early and Cousins was changing protection and they were picking it up. If he either delays that, or shows blitz in a gap before blitzing a different gap it makes it more effective.

The other problem on defense is at corner, and that's Chris Harris. He's been playing poorly for over 2 seasons now. And lost in his finger pointing and yelling is just he's complete inability to stay with team's number 1 receivers. Whether he should have had safety help or not is immaterial when players are continuously running right by him. Maybe he is better suited to be covering 2nd and 3rd receivers, or maybe he's just not that good? But either way the Broncos need a number 1 corner in the worst way.

As far as the offense goes, the biggest issue (and it's a coaching issue that dates back to the spring, not just this week) is that the Broncos don't appear to have any bread and butter plays. They'll run plays and get yards, at times big yards, but they don't have any base plays that they can run in their sleep. They need 5-10 base plays where they practice them so much that they can have success with them when they need it. Plays where it's 3rd and 1, and the defense knows what you're running but you gain 3 because you execute it that well. That's something the offense needs to change going forward, regardless of who the personnel is.

[Butler By'Note]

Cardinals have the fourth worst defense in the league looking at yards per average. Looking at points allowed, they're the worst defense in the league. Vance is failing as DC in Arizona.

They should be thankful he's not their head coach.

I echo the sentiment of "hope" residing with Fangio (at the present time), despite our record. VJ is about to be demoted again, and the difference is fairly obvious.

One of my friends is a big Cards fan, he didn't believe me when I told him they'd have some issues with Joseph. The other day he was telling me how bad the defense is, I asked him how the coverage on TEs and RBs is? That sent him on a rant about how poor it is. Some things don't change.

[DENVERSB50CHAMP]

One of my friends is a big Cards fan, he didn't believe me when I told him they'd have some issues with Joseph. The other day he was telling me how bad the defense is, I asked him how the coverage on TEs and RBs is? That sent him on a rant about how poor it is. Some things don't change.

LOL now that is Bad Hahaha.

[Lumiere]

One of my friends is a big Cards fan, he didn't believe me when I told him they'd have some issues with Joseph. The other day he was telling me how bad the defense is, I asked him how the coverage on TEs and RBs is? That sent him on a rant about how poor it is. Some things don't change.

But are their practices good?

[Bronco51]

Yesterday’s clock management was rather VJ-ish.

[Fantaztic7]

Is it a coaching problem or a player problem? On defense I think it's a player problem. One is technique and not ability, that's Johnson was showing his blitz too early and Cousins was changing protection and they were picking it up. If he either delays that, or shows blitz in a gap before blitzing a different gap it makes it more effective.

The other problem on defense is at corner, and that's Chris Harris. He's been playing poorly for over 2 seasons now. And lost in his finger pointing and yelling is just he's complete inability to stay with team's number 1 receivers. Whether he should have had safety help or not is immaterial when players are continuously running right by him. Maybe he is better suited to be covering 2nd and 3rd receivers, or maybe he's just not that good? But either way the Broncos need a number 1 corner in the worst way.

As far as the offense goes, the biggest issue (and it's a coaching issue that dates back to the spring, not just this week) is that the Broncos don't appear to have any bread and butter plays. They'll run plays and get yards, at times big yards, but they don't have any base plays that they can run in their sleep. They need 5-10 base plays where they practice them so much that they can have success with them when they need it. Plays where it's 3rd and 1, and the defense knows what you're running but you gain 3 because you execute it that well. That's something the offense needs to change going forward, regardless of who the personnel is.

The issue with Johnson showing the blitz too early could be his inexperience. He’s only had say, 4 or 5 starts? Maybe that’s something Fangio can teach him for the future.

I agree with your point about CHJ. While he might be the best cornerback for the Broncos that doesn’t mean he’s elite. The Chiefs game had a great example of what you said. Hill was on a crossing route with Harris covering. We know Hill is freaky fast, but he had to slow down to wait for Moore to pick him up and deliver the ball. Hill was almost at a stand still when he caught the ball. Harris was in full stride and didn’t come close to closing. I understand Jackson wasn’t in position yesterday on Diggs touchdown. However, Harris was covering - he should be expected to make a play. When he demands top pay he better back it up with a great play against a #1. The guys who should be making plays to close games aren’t getting it done - Von and Harris Jr.

The offense flashed yesterday especially in the first half. Allen might not be a franchise quarterback but I would say he’s played the best since Manning.

[Fantaztic7]

Yesterday’s clock management was rather VJ-ish.

Not so much. The last timeout used was because the offense was confused with the play. Maybe an issue with Scangarello’s call and/or Allen understanding the play. They had to get the play right or game over so that was a good timeout.

[Capt. Jack]

This Thread reminds me of a stubborn skin rash that won't go away. It would be nice if we could forget about the epic disaster that was the VJ era in Denver.

[Fantaztic7]

This is a better team... Stats don't tell all the details. You can see improvements all over the field over last year's squad.

It's not as simple as comparing win/loss and loss margin.

It's clear to the eye the team is more talented than last year. Coaching staff is still making asanine decisions that minimize the improved talent across the board.

Also, to add to jw7 thoughts. Rome wasn't built in a day. Even shanny who everyone wanted was pedestrian in w/l last year, this year, they are killing it. Is takes time with new coaching for everything to come together.

The signs of improvement are there, they weren't there with Vance. The jury is out on if this staff will pull it together, but it's clear there has been improvement.

Based on what? How are they a better team?

[DavisMVP]

The Cardinals have a bunch of old players from other teams and they weren’t good last year. NEXT.

[Bronco51]

Not so much. The last timeout used was because the offense was confused with the play. Maybe an issue with Scangarello’s call and/or Allen understanding the play. They had to get the play right or game over so that was a good timeout.

After Allen ran for the first down, they looked like clowns trying to figure out what to do. You have to have a play dialed up for that situation. It was absolutely amateur hour.

[Fantaztic7]

After Allen ran for the first down, they looked like clowns trying to figure out what to do. You have to have a play dialed up for that situation. It was absolutely amateur hour.

Allen should have had awareness to get out of bounds on the first down. From his angle he might have though he could make the touchdown. He actually made a nice move to get past the defender at the line. They should have coached him during the timeout to get out of bounds or quickly line up and spike the ball. I think it was more about an inexperienced quarterback not making the right decisions. Considering the entire game Allen was fairly poised playing on the road.