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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by chessic View Post
    What about Schumerís offense makes it better, or just different, than Skagís? He doesnít have a good HC record. Why is he a good OC? I donít know much about him.
    This is what I've got:

    QBs that he has worked with as QB coach or OC:

    Donavan McNabb, Michael Vick, Sam Bradford, Marc Bulger, Colt McCoy, Brandon Weeden, Shaun Hill, Case Keenum, Eli Manning, Daniel Jones

    Not sure what we can gather from that without looking at their performances with him as coach.

    He was connected to:

    -half of McNabb's pro bowl years, including hus best year: 2004 where he threw 31 TDs to 8 INTs.

    -Eli Manning's 2018 season, which was the 4th best of his career in passer rating

    -Daniel Jones' decent rookie year

    -Case Keenum's 2017 career year

    -Almost all of what's gone well in Sam Bradford's career, including 3 of his 4 career seasons winning 7+ games, 3/4 seasons with 18+ TDs, his 2016 career year and a pretty decent rookie year.

    -Colt McCoy's 2011 career year

    -Bradon Weeden's awful rookie year, which actually ended up being the best year lf his career.

    Shurmur hasn't always had much to work with at QB, but he seems to get the most out of whoever he does have.

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by chessic View Post
    What about Schumerís offense makes it better, or just different, than Skagís? He doesnít have a good HC record. Why is he a good OC? I donít know much about him.
    2013 and 2014 in Philly the offences were top 5 in both scoring and yards, and 2017 in Minnesota his offense was top 10 with Case Keenum.

    Meanwhile Denver struggled this year with Scangarello. For me the biggest deficiencies with the offense this year were things that a veteran OC would be good at. Meaning having a set of base plays that the team can run at any time and build on. And just having the offense look like it's on the same page.

    The OC is effectively the Head Coach of 25 offensive players and needs to have them all understand everything, and have them be able to execute each play effectively regardless of who's in there. The result may not be as good with the backups, but having them be able to execute things is at least a minimum.

    Scangarello may one day become a good OC, but in year 1 he struggled in a lot of different ways, and right now the team needs someone who's got a proven history of being able to field an offense that can function like a pro offense should.

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by chessic View Post
    What about Schumerís offense makes it better, or just different, than Skagís? He doesnít have a good HC record. Why is he a good OC? I donít know much about him.
    Wade Phillips didn't have a good HC record either but was fantastic as a defensive coordinator for us. Some coaches are better coordinators than head coaches and the sooner they figure that out the better because hopefully you can snatch up one that won't leave for the next head coaching gig.

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  4. #169
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    I just have to disagree with the Scangarello firing. Heís a rookie OC and showed IMPROVEMENT as the season went on. His offense was vastly more effective than the sorry years of McCoy and Musgrave. Yes, we lost games early on in the season because of his playcalling. But his potential along with his offensive philosophy had me excited for seasons to come. This young offense needs continuity and itís incredibly frustrating to see another change happen. Someone is really going to have to sell me on Pat Shurmur. Itís frustrating to see how Lockís development at Mizzou was hindered by several different coaching changes, and when he finally gets to the pros in a system that FITS him, the FO decides to make a change. I donít know, man.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDbroncos02 View Post
    I just have to disagree with the Scangarello firing. Heís a rookie OC and showed IMPROVEMENT as the season went on. His offense was vastly more effective than the sorry years of McCoy and Musgrave. Yes, we lost games early on in the season because of his playcalling. But his potential along with his offensive philosophy had me excited for seasons to come. This young offense needs continuity and itís incredibly frustrating to see another change happen. Someone is really going to have to sell me on Pat Shurmur. Itís frustrating to see how Lockís development at Mizzou was hindered by several different coaching changes, and when he finally gets to the pros in a system that FITS him, the FO decides to make a change. I donít know, man.
    Shurmur will be the 5th OC in five years. Scangarello should have gotten more experience in SF. Hopefully Shurmur will be successful as the OC. Denver is becoming a place where an OC only gets a season.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    Shurmur will be the 5th OC in five years. Scangarello should have gotten more experience in SF. Hopefully Shurmur will be successful as the OC. Denver is becoming a place where an OC only gets a season.
    Reminds me of the last few Shanny years where we had a constant DC rotation.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by flosstein View Post
    Reminds me of the last few Shanny years where we had a constant DC rotation.
    I think this move reinforces Scangarello was pushed on Fangio by Elway. Elway pulled strings and traded a pick to SF to get Scangarello. Sure Fangio met Scangarello before he was the Broncos HC, but the hire had Elway written all over it. Now here we are, going into a new year without continuity on offense. Maybe it will workout fine, who knows. I thought Scangarello improved some with Lock but it seems like there was a rift brewing with Fangio.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    I think this move reinforces Scangarello was pushed on Fangio by Elway. Elway pulled strings and traded a pick to SF to get Scangarello. Sure Fangio met Scangarello before he was the Broncos HC, but the hire had Elway written all over it. Now here we are, going into a new year without continuity on offense. Maybe it will workout fine, who knows. I thought Scangarello improved some with Lock but it seems like there was a rift brewing with Fangio.
    Both offences will be West Coast Offences, so they'll have some commonality. Depending on where each branch grew from there could be some overlap with terminology. And if there's enough of an overlap with terminology then the continuity should be decent. And it doesn't seem like they'll be making big changes in position coaches, so that will provide continuity as well.

    As for who made the Scangarello hiring, it really doesn't matter at this point. He's gone, hopefully Shumur is a better fit.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Both offences will be West Coast Offences, so they'll have some commonality. Depending on where each branch grew from there could be some overlap with terminology. And if there's enough of an overlap with terminology then the continuity should be decent. And it doesn't seem like they'll be making big changes in position coaches, so that will provide continuity as well.

    As for who made the Scangarello hiring, it really doesn't matter at this point. He's gone, hopefully Shumur is a better fit.
    There is more to continuity than the scheme and terminology. Relationships and trust are as important, I would argue more important. Trust comes from working with one another over time. Shurmur can do those things as well and hopefully heíll be in Denver more than one year. Coaching churn is something weíve come to expect from Elway, just another casual hiring and firing.

  10. #175
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    This was a Great Move !

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDbroncos02 View Post
    His offense was vastly more effective than the sorry years of McCoy and Musgrave.
    How ? In 2017 and 2018 our passing yards per game were higher than 2019. In 2017 and 2018 our running yards per game were higher than 2019. In 2017 and 2018 our offensive scoring per game were higher than in 2019. What are we talking about here, our offense was not better than the previous sorry years of 2017 and 2018, what does that say ? And I think you could make a pretty sound argument that Scangarello had more talent to work with at quarterback with Flacco and Lock than McCoy or Musgrave had in those years previous. Maybe it just felt nicer to you, but it was not more productive or improved at all.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    There is more to continuity than the scheme and terminology. Relationships and trust are as important, I would argue more important. Trust comes from working with one another over time. Shurmur can do those things as well and hopefully he’ll be in Denver more than one year. Coaching churn is something we’ve come to expect from Elway, just another casual hiring and firing.
    The most important continuity comes from the scheme and terminology. That matters more than the relationships, especially since it's only been a year. And continuity in relationships is good when there's a good relationship there. But listen to the things Flacco and Sanders said about the OC, there's probably not a lot of trust in Scangarello that's been built.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    The most important continuity comes from the scheme and terminology. That matters more than the relationships, especially since it's only been a year. And continuity in relationships is good when there's a good relationship there. But listen to the things Flacco and Sanders said about the OC, there's probably not a lot of trust in Scangarello that's been built.
    I wouldnít listen to Flacco because he played badly and would naturally look to scapegoat Scangarello. I love Sanders...receivers are always going to believe theyíre not getting enough targets. The fact is that Sutton overtook him as the #1, Sanders was stung from not being the guy.

    Just about everyone praised Lock for his success, not to mention the 4-1 record down the stretch. Nearly everyone has talked about the positive trends including the offense to close the season. Who was calling the plays? Scangarello. If fans are going to boast about the positive trends, Lockís progress and 4-1 record, itís disingenuous to not give part of the credit to Scangarello.

    Now that doesnít mean it wasnít a good move to hire Shurmur, but I think thereís some double speak when it comes to talking about all the positives down the stretch while throwing Scangarello under the bus. I wasnít a fan of hiring him in the first place, but he showed some progress down the stretch.

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    I wouldn’t listen to Flacco because he played badly and would naturally look to scapegoat Scangarello. I love Sanders...receivers are always going to believe they’re not getting enough targets. The fact is that Sutton overtook him as the #1, Sanders was stung from not being the guy.

    Just about everyone praised Lock for his success, not to mention the 4-1 record down the stretch. Nearly everyone has talked about the positive trends including the offense to close the season. Who was calling the plays? Scangarello. If fans are going to boast about the positive trends, Lock’s progress and 4-1 record, it’s disingenuous to not give part of the credit to Scangarello.

    Now that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a good move to hire Shurmur, but I think there’s some double speak when it comes to talking about all the positives down the stretch while throwing Scangarello under the bus. I wasn’t a fan of hiring him in the first place, but he showed some progress down the stretch.


    the thing with scrangrello, wasn't that he couldnt design some really good plays, or have some good series ...but the fact he would suddenly have brain farts, get ultra conservative and just piss away leads

    or he would call a great series until the redzone...we could be running great, getting chunks and get to the five yard line with a first and he would call three corner fades in a row, or get cute with a way outta left field play at the totally wrong time

    its like he had no awareness of the games ebbs and flows

    he may become a great OC at some point but I don't think that was going to be next year
    Last edited by arapaho; 01-14-2020 at 11:42 AM.

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by arapaho View Post
    the thing with scrangrello, wasn't that he couldnt design some really good plays, or have some good series ...but the fact he would suddenly have brain farts, get ultra conservative and just piss away leads

    or he would call a great series until the redzone...we could be running great, getting chunks and get to the five yard line with a first and he would call three corner fades in a row, or get cute with a way outta left field play at the totally wrong time

    its like he had no awareness of the games ebbs and flows

    he may become a great OC at some point but I don't think that was going to be next year
    I think the odds would favor Scangarello having a better season for a few reasons. First we donít know how many calls failed due to poor quarterback play (Flacco) and execution. Second, Lock will have a full off-season to continue developing. Third, any additional talent for the offense through the draft/FA would help. Weíll never know because heís gone now, however just as players can take the next step in their second year the same thing can happen with coaches. I donít disagree he held back the offense in situations but there was a lot more to the story than just Scangarello. After the season Fangio said Lock and Scangarello developed trust working together, so he made a positive difference.

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