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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JvDub95 View Post
    Well, we could say the same thing about FA WRs too, we'd be overpaying for mediocre talent. All these top WRs, imo, are studs and would make us a very dynamic offense. Sure it's a deep class but there is an obvious talent drop from the next tier of players.

    I'm not against anything really, outside of QB or TE in the 1st ( which there is zero chance of happening ). I'd be perfectly happy with any of OT, WR, CB or LB. I want long term continuity on the line and Lock will need a good line so like I said, I'm good with it.

    I just feel we can sign some good interior FAs that will contribute and get us buy for a couple more year's. We aren't going to get Dallas's line in 1 year. We got a decent start with Risner and possibly James so we'll need more than just a draft pick or 2.

    If we take OT in the 1st, great!! We need it but we'll still be looking for more line help for the next couple years and finding guards is arguably the easiest position to fill. Finding a great WR is a lot harder and if we can get one here than do it, why not
    going to have to disagree with you on this one.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHSalute View Post
    I do hope someone does remind Elway that defense wins championships.

    DT 1430 yards
    Decker 1288 yards
    J Thomas 788 yards
    Welker 778 yards

    5477 passing yards 55 passing TDS


    SB Final 8-43...but by all means go draft WRS
    This is such an outdated cliche

    How about someone actually remind Elway that the Chiefs just beat the 49ers in the super bowl? Didn't the 49ers have the better D? And the Chiefs were pretty much all offensive weapons? Yes Defense definitely wins championships.

    2019 was a terrible offensive showing by 2 really good offenses that both put up ponits in the playoffs to get to the big game. But 2018 Eagles over Patriots 41-33, 2017 Patriots over Falcons 34-28. Teams with QBs and offensive weapons.

    Mahomes, Kelce, Hill, Hardman, Watkins just won a championship.

    By all means dilute yourself into thinking that adding a MLB that can cover or a CB to a Defense that was top 10 in pass Defense will put us over the top. Teams win by having offenses that can score points and a defense that can do enough. Our D was good enough last year. We can't score points. The rules have changed to favor the offense. The SB you are referring to, the Seahawks were allowed to mug our receivers all day. That is not the NFL anymore.

    I am a big fan of this OT class and this WR class. IMO we should draft heavily on offense and let these guys go grow with our QB. Unless we go offense big time in FA, I hope 3 of the first 5 picks and 4 of the first 7 are offensive players. Invest in the line and get explosive weapons. It will pay off for years.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by myoung View Post
    This is such an outdated cliche

    How about someone actually remind Elway that the Chiefs just beat the 49ers in the super bowl? Didn't the 49ers have the better D? And the Chiefs were pretty much all offensive weapons? Yes Defense definitely wins championships.

    2019 was a terrible offensive showing by 2 really good offenses that both put up ponits in the playoffs to get to the big game. But 2018 Eagles over Patriots 41-33, 2017 Patriots over Falcons 34-28. Teams with QBs and offensive weapons.

    Mahomes, Kelce, Hill, Hardman, Watkins just won a championship.

    By all means dilute yourself into thinking that adding a MLB that can cover or a CB to a Defense that was top 10 in pass Defense will put us over the top. Teams win by having offenses that can score points and a defense that can do enough. Our D was good enough last year. We can't score points. The rules have changed to favor the offense. The SB you are referring to, the Seahawks were allowed to mug our receivers all day. That is not the NFL anymore.

    I am a big fan of this OT class and this WR class. IMO we should draft heavily on offense and let these guys go grow with our QB. Unless we go offense big time in FA, I hope 3 of the first 5 picks and 4 of the first 7 are offensive players. Invest in the line and get explosive weapons. It will pay off for years.
    I agree to a point. I do believe it's a QB/passer driven league, partly because the league has made rules that support Os over Ds. PI and Roughing penalties make it very, very hard to defend. So you might as well join them at some point. I recommend having a good passing, mobile QB (which we now do)/solid Oline/quality receivers/innovative play design. Score, score, score. But yes, I still like some balance on O, and the run game is always going to be a factor.

    But Ds can still win games. And I believe we need to go heavy O this offseason in key positions - Oline/WR, but also I think we need to acquire more players overall on D, to take care of need and to fortify a defense that has question marks.

    In the end, you have to build a team that scores more than the teams you play....how obvious is that? But you can get there in different ways. If you want a high octane O that scores a load, you still need a D that will prevent opponents from doing the same. Somewhere there's a sweet spot, based on the type of team you want. You may need to sacrifice a wee bit on one unit or another, but the end game is to find a way to score at least one more point, or vice versa, to give up at least one less point. And that does not always translate to how many you score. Ds are still very relevant. My issue with the league is that Os seem to get more support in terms of rules and officiating. So you keep that pendulum in the back of your mind, knowing that Os might be worth investing in (within reason), for that reason alone.

    And lets not forget coaching, and how it can alter the final score in any game.

    But I still love a good D! Long live The Orange Crush!!!

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by myoung View Post
    This is such an outdated cliche

    How about someone actually remind Elway that the Chiefs just beat the 49ers in the super bowl? Didn't the 49ers have the better D? And the Chiefs were pretty much all offensive weapons? Yes Defense definitely wins championships.

    2019 was a terrible offensive showing by 2 really good offenses that both put up ponits in the playoffs to get to the big game. But 2018 Eagles over Patriots 41-33, 2017 Patriots over Falcons 34-28. Teams with QBs and offensive weapons.

    Mahomes, Kelce, Hill, Hardman, Watkins just won a championship.

    By all means dilute yourself into thinking that adding a MLB that can cover or a CB to a Defense that was top 10 in pass Defense will put us over the top. Teams win by having offenses that can score points and a defense that can do enough. Our D was good enough last year. We can't score points. The rules have changed to favor the offense. The SB you are referring to, the Seahawks were allowed to mug our receivers all day. That is not the NFL anymore.

    I am a big fan of this OT class and this WR class. IMO we should draft heavily on offense and let these guys go grow with our QB. Unless we go offense big time in FA, I hope 3 of the first 5 picks and 4 of the first 7 are offensive players. Invest in the line and get explosive weapons. It will pay off for years.
    Drink water?

    There is reason to think part of Elway's plan is to use cap space to re-sign the team's free agents, mostly on defense, and to use the remainder to sign mostly defensive free agents. The other part seems to do as you suggest and draft mostly offensive position players especially in the top 100.

    We shall see.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
    Does the 4-1 close to the season not, at least suggest, that fixing the QB spot was more than 50% of the solution? I know your adamant that Fant was a luxury pick, but going into the draft our TE options were Butt (always hurt), Heuerman (often hurt), and a dudes who had almost no experience. Tight end might not be the most critical position on a football team, but you do have to have them available and able to play. And teams have shown ('13 Broncos, Patriots with Gronk) that a skilled TE can make an offense almost unstoppable.

    Last thing......Great QBs have won Super Bowls with average or bad O-lines. Great O-lines rarely win Super Bowls with average or worse QBs. Dallas has had the best O-line in the league for 4 or 5 years and hasn't even gotten to the Super Bowl. Their QB is actually pretty good (just ask him, he'll tell you he's worth 40 million a year), AND he has Zeke, and they STILL can't get to the Super Bowl. What isn't great about the cowboys? Their WRs and TEs.
    The Broncos won SB's 32&33 on the merits of a great offense that was absolutely dependent upon a dominant, all-pro OL. Peyton Manning had his best year in 2013 and scored only 8 pts in SB48, the biggest factor in that loss being that our (Cladyless) ramshackle OL couldn't stop their front four DL. And having JT with the Four Horsemen didn't help --they were very "stoppable". Great defenses are usually in the playoffs and tend to expose offensive weaknesses that had scooted by in the regular season, and our 2015 D (with it's DL dominating OL's) did exactly that to every opponent we faced in the playoffs and SB50.
    Last edited by L.M.; 02-29-2020 at 01:47 PM.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by myoung View Post
    This is such an outdated cliche

    How about someone actually remind Elway that the Chiefs just beat the 49ers in the super bowl? Didn't the 49ers have the better D? And the Chiefs were pretty much all offensive weapons? Yes Defense definitely wins championships.

    2019 was a terrible offensive showing by 2 really good offenses that both put up ponits in the playoffs to get to the big game. But 2018 Eagles over Patriots 41-33, 2017 Patriots over Falcons 34-28. Teams with QBs and offensive weapons.

    Mahomes, Kelce, Hill, Hardman, Watkins just won a championship.

    By all means dilute yourself into thinking that adding a MLB that can cover or a CB to a Defense that was top 10 in pass Defense will put us over the top. Teams win by having offenses that can score points and a defense that can do enough. Our D was good enough last year. We can't score points. The rules have changed to favor the offense. The SB you are referring to, the Seahawks were allowed to mug our receivers all day. That is not the NFL anymore.

    I am a big fan of this OT class and this WR class. IMO we should draft heavily on offense and let these guys go grow with our QB. Unless we go offense big time in FA, I hope 3 of the first 5 picks and 4 of the first 7 are offensive players. Invest in the line and get explosive weapons. It will pay off for years.
    How does one dilute themselves? Drink lots of water?

    SF dominated their opponents in the trenches, and they did so to KC for most of that game. SF only lost because Kyle choked ...again. SMH

    You cite examples of recent Sb's but skip the ones that the Broncos actually played in --please explain how offenses were the decisive factors in 48 & 50.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  7. #22
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    I want the Broncos to go OL with #15 --IF any of the top prospects are left on the board. If not then, trade down or wait til the 2nd rd but certainly don't overreach to fill a need. I don't like the options for OL in FA (and our choices there have busted recently), but I like some of the options for WR in FA and would prefer to get our #2 there (speedster Robby Anderson from NYJ would do nicely). I'd be fine getting a beastmaster DT at #15 too. Shoring up the trenches and creating dominant lines is vital, it allows the other positions to do their jobs more effectively.

    Let's say they don't acquire any decent starting talent for the OL just mediocre patches, or developmental projects, and draft Ruggs. He gets open for a deep pass with open prairie in front of him but Lock is immediately flushed out, has to throw on the run and misses him, or worse, they connect and score but the OL commits a holding penalty because they suck and don't know what else to do to stop a good pass rush.

    If this team is going to get anywhere we have to get past KC. Trying to shoot it out is hopeless, we have to get solid pressure on Mahomes and disrupt him the way SF did for most of the SB, and we have to protect Lock more and keep our offense on the field so it can chew up the clock. Their DC (Spagnuolo) is excellent, really brings the heat and its worked, they've used our O-linemen like turnstiles, and that just has to stop by finding elite talent for our line.
    Last edited by L.M.; 02-29-2020 at 12:49 PM.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Drink water?

    There is reason to think part of Elway's plan is to use cap space to re-sign the team's free agents, mostly on defense, and to use the remainder to sign mostly defensive free agents. The other part seems to do as you suggest and draft mostly offensive position players especially in the top 100.

    We shall see.
    Beat me to it!
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.M. View Post
    How does one dilute themselves? Drink lots of water?

    SF dominated their opponents in the trenches, and they did so to KC for most of that game. SF only lost because Kyle choked ...again. SMH

    You cite examples of recent Sb's but skip the ones that the Broncos actually played in --please explain how offenses were the decisive factors in 48 & 50.
    I think you are making my point with the 49ers. They did dominate most of the game, but the Chiefs had more margin for error because of their QB and their weapons they have put around him. The Chiefs didn't need to play a perfect game to win. They just needed one good quarter with all of those tools.

    If you look too far into history, you ignore the rule changes that have been made over the last several years. The league has changed to favor offenses. IMO, It is not helpful to continue to chase old memories in hopes that we can recreate the same result by doing the same thing. We all have our opinions and I can respect that. I know that many on this board believe that adding a MLB that can cover is the highest need on the team. I just don't agree. Seems like a waste of time. IMO we have a young QB that has shown potential. We should invest heavy in young players to surround him. It is very clear to me that should be OL and explosive weapons. of course that is my opinion.

    Personally, I could really care less how we won the previous super bowls at this point. I just want to win another and set ourselves up to compete for one EVERY year.

    I don't want to ignore our D completely. I want to resign some of our key Free Agents and do what is needed to keep it at or near the level it is was at last year, but I don't believe adding a player here or there on D puts this team over the top. Our coach should hold the D together pretty well.

    We need to score more points.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.M. View Post
    How does one dilute themselves? Drink lots of water?

    .
    weaken, diminish, or reduce... lol. It doesn't always have to refer to liquids... and yes that is what I meant and was not trying to say delude which would be to deceive. Which I guess could apply as well.

    but yes drinking lots of water would work too. Love it.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by myoung View Post
    This is such an outdated cliche

    How about someone actually remind Elway that the Chiefs just beat the 49ers in the super bowl? Didn't the 49ers have the better D? And the Chiefs were pretty much all offensive weapons? Yes Defense definitely wins championships.

    2019 was a terrible offensive showing by 2 really good offenses that both put up ponits in the playoffs to get to the big game. But 2018 Eagles over Patriots 41-33, 2017 Patriots over Falcons 34-28. Teams with QBs and offensive weapons.

    Mahomes, Kelce, Hill, Hardman, Watkins just won a championship.

    By all means dilute yourself into thinking that adding a MLB that can cover or a CB to a Defense that was top 10 in pass Defense will put us over the top. Teams win by having offenses that can score points and a defense that can do enough. Our D was good enough last year. We can't score points. The rules have changed to favor the offense. The SB you are referring to, the Seahawks were allowed to mug our receivers all day. That is not the NFL anymore.

    I am a big fan of this OT class and this WR class. IMO we should draft heavily on offense and let these guys go grow with our QB. Unless we go offense big time in FA, I hope 3 of the first 5 picks and 4 of the first 7 are offensive players. Invest in the line and get explosive weapons. It will pay off for years.
    Chiefs won the SB on defense, their defense got the ball back and shut the 49ers out in the 4th. No win if SF scores a TD.

    AFC teams that made the playoff: 5 of top 7 points allowed (including KC) Only Houston outside of this.
    NFC team that made the playoffs 5 of top 7 points allowed, only Seattle outside of this.

    Why does everyone think KC had a bad D? They were 7th in NFL in points allowed (better than SF). SF got to the SB throwing 27 passes the previous two games. Defense wins is hardly a cliche.
    Ravens GM 2016 - Ravens are looking to trade down 4-8 spots

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by myoung View Post
    I think you are making my point with the 49ers. They did dominate most of the game, but the Chiefs had more margin for error because of their QB and their weapons they have put around him. The Chiefs didn't need to play a perfect game to win. They just needed one good quarter with all of those tools.

    If you look too far into history, you ignore the rule changes that have been made over the last several years. The league has changed to favor offenses. IMO, It is not helpful to continue to chase old memories in hopes that we can recreate the same result by doing the same thing. We all have our opinions and I can respect that. I know that many on this board believe that adding a MLB that can cover is the highest need on the team. I just don't agree. Seems like a waste of time. IMO we have a young QB that has shown potential. We should invest heavy in young players to surround him. It is very clear to me that should be OL and explosive weapons. of course that is my opinion.

    Personally, I could really care less how we won the previous super bowls at this point. I just want to win another and set ourselves up to compete for one EVERY year.

    I don't want to ignore our D completely. I want to resign some of our key Free Agents and do what is needed to keep it at or near the level it is was at last year, but I don't believe adding a player here or there on D puts this team over the top. Our coach should hold the D together pretty well.

    We need to score more points.
    By no means did I make your point. SF was balanced and had the "tools" to win too (just as Atlanta did a few years before), but coaches have to make sound, in-game decisions as well. SF got as far as it did because it was effective in the trenches, and that is fundamental to success. I agree we need to score more points and it starts there, and we're in agreement about OL.

    SB's 48&50 and their lessons are not so "far into history" away from the present that they are irrelevant. Yes, new rules help O's but that doesn't mean defenses can't be the deciding factor, and shutouts still happen-- we got one just last season. But the FO is clearly not aiming for crappy O and top-heavy D to recreate '15 -look who they have drafted in top rounds recently, they're striving for balance too. I think it's much harder to recreate KC's explosive O-centric team without a Mahomes to run it -- he's a one in a million freak!

    I'm not in the ILB @ #15 "camp" if there is such a thing. In the recent poll, there was one vote for that, and overall the votes for O vs D were 4-1. My vote was OT.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHSalute View Post
    Chiefs won the SB on defense, their defense got the ball back and shut the 49ers out in the 4th. No win if SF scores a TD.

    AFC teams that made the playoff: 5 of top 7 points allowed (including KC) Only Houston outside of this.
    NFC team that made the playoffs 5 of top 7 points allowed, only Seattle outside of this.

    Why does everyone think KC had a bad D? They were 7th in NFL in points allowed (better than SF). SF got to the SB throwing 27 passes the previous two games. Defense wins is hardly a cliche.
    Because it was their weakness not so long ago. Once they got Spags and patched a couple holes they got a little closer to the balance point. It's still all about their O though, that D can't actually carry the team, but it's good enough, especially when they have the lead or they need to step up and aid an offensive rally (and I don't mean the political ones).
    Last edited by L.M.; 02-29-2020 at 01:54 PM.
    Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

  14. #29
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    Defense wins championship is definitely a cliche. But not for the reasons mentioned, itís superceded by something thatís even more cliche, football is a team sport. You need the offense to score and the defense to stop the other team.

    We need to get stronger everywhere not just one side. Our defense was very bend donít break last year and the offense was very inept for a large portion of the season. Lock injected some life into an offense that had flatlined and a defense that was ready to quit. It really doesnít matter what position we take as long as they are a solid contributor. Lock is a franchise QB and because of that this team will always be in the game. He will still experience growing pains but this team rallied around him and played much better for him even when we got down to our 3rd string olinemen in Rodgers, Schlottman, and Morris.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.M. View Post
    By no means did I make your point. SF was balanced and had the "tools" to win too (just as Atlanta did a few years before), but coaches have to make sound, in-game decisions as well. SF got as far as it did because it was effective in the trenches, and that is fundamental to success. I agree we need to score more points and it starts there, and we're in agreement about OL.

    SB's 48&50 and their lessons are not so "far into history" away from the present that they are irrelevant. Yes, new rules help O's but that doesn't mean defenses can't be the deciding factor, and shutouts still happen-- we got one just last season. But the FO is clearly not aiming for crappy O and top-heavy D to recreate '15 -look who they have drafted in top rounds recently, they're striving for balance too. I think it's much harder to recreate KC's explosive O-centric team without a Mahomes to run it -- he's a one in a million freak!

    I'm not in the ILB @ #15 "camp" if there is such a thing. In the recent poll, there was one vote for that, and overall the votes for O vs D were 4-1. My vote was OT.
    I think we will both be happy if we upgrade the OL

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