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Thread: Corona virus

  1. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by atwaterandstir View Post
    Nobody expects the the world to be the same as it was 6 months ago. We do expect this peak fear of even just 30 days ago to subside with the reality of what is happening in our hospitals.

    How can you be so excited of being closer to antibody testing and vaccines, yet not recognize the speed at which things are now moving? We are quickly finding treatments as well.
    Because I look at the data and the opinions of the experts. Common sentiment may be trending up as hospitals are cancelling elective procedures and managing to have enough beds and ventilators, but that just means the worst-case scenario didn't hit like Italy where people were dying in hallways. We are still trending towards more deaths and cases each day.

    There is nothing wrong with being optimistic that we can recover potentially in a couple of months with the right testing and system. There is something wrong with wanting to open now and thinking we have a handle on it. There is something VERY wrong with saying this was overblown when obviously the measures taken have helped.

  2. #707
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    Leading medical experts have also studied the effect of alcohol on the immune system. Drinking alcohol weakens the immune system therefore making people more susceptible to infections. Why haven’t those “experts”’and public officials pounded the table and demanded all sales of alcohol be banned indefinitely during the pandemic? Explain please.....
    Really? Bad faith arguments that have no bearing on the original discussion? You seriously think this is your "gotcha" moment to the experts and are trying to discredit them?

    Here are a few reasons, take your pick:
    -Colorado DID ban alcohol sales as non-essential. What occurred was a mad rush and swarming of liquor stores, defeating the entire purpose. They were forced to re-open as a lesser of two evils.
    -Because you are not in public while drinking anymore. If you adhere to quarantines, you are not being exposed. A paper shield is still effective if it isn't hit by anything.
    -WHO specifically warns against drinking too much as it does compromise your immune system and can lead you to do stupid things while drunk: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...sk/5143321002/

  3. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by CinnaMunMun View Post
    Really? Bad faith arguments that have no bearing on the original discussion? You seriously think this is your "gotcha" moment to the experts and are trying to discredit them?

    Here are a few reasons, take your pick:
    -Colorado DID ban alcohol sales as non-essential. What occurred was a mad rush and swarming of liquor stores, defeating the entire purpose. They were forced to re-open as a lesser of two evils.
    -Because you are not in public while drinking anymore. If you adhere to quarantines, you are not being exposed. A paper shield is still effective if it isn't hit by anything.
    -WHO specifically warns against drinking too much as it does compromise your immune system and can lead you to do stupid things while drunk: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...sk/5143321002/
    No, this has bearing on the discussion. When you’re going to cite the experts, don’t cherry pick which experts to follow while dismissing others. First, not every state took the same approach.

    People going to stores to buy liquor exposes them to the virus - touching a door, the screen on a credit card machine and being around other people. Again, why are those stores essential? Every trip to the store for beer, wine or liquor increases the risk of exposure and spreading the virus to other people. Aren’t the experts saying we have to prevent people from spreading the virus?

    When people are drinking at home, thus suppressing the immune system, what happens when a family member comes home after being exposed to the virus? Aren’t we supposed to be protecting people?

    How exactly does continuing to have access to beer, wine and liquor help prevent the spread of the virus?

  4. #709
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    Is there flu comparison totally wrong? I really don't know. I think this is trending toward worse but statistically is isn't that far off - and I don't mean to sound callous if that's how it comes across.

    The 2018-2019 flu season in the US estimated deaths are at about 34,000 with over 130 of those children. Hospitalizations were about half a million. The 2017-2018 season had 61,000 deaths. 2016-2017, 38,000 deaths. 2015-2016, 23,000 deaths. 2014-2015, 51,000 deaths. Source CDC.

    This far US covid19 deaths are as of now over 35,000 with three pediatric deaths, sadly with underlying conditions.

    It seems the flu comparison is valid up to a point with the exception of children being less vulnerable and covid possibly being more contagious. Perhaps as well those who get sicker may be even worse.

  5. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    No, this has bearing on the discussion. When you’re going to cite the experts, don’t cherry pick which experts to follow while dismissing others. First, not every state took the same approach.

    People going to stores to buy liquor exposes them to the virus - touching a door, the screen on a credit card machine and being around other people. Again, why are those stores essential? Every trip to the store for beer, wine or liquor increases the risk of exposure and spreading the virus to other people. Aren’t the experts saying we have to prevent people from spreading the virus?

    When people are drinking at home, thus suppressing the immune system, what happens when a family member comes home after being exposed to the virus? Aren’t we supposed to be protecting people?

    How exactly does continuing to have access to beer, wine and liquor help prevent the spread of the virus?
    There was no cherry picking, there is a thing called fact checking and knowing what someone specializes in. Dr. Oz and Dr. Pepper both have the word doctor in front of them, but I wouldn't trust them as much as Dr. Fauci or another immunologist or epidemiologist.

    Setting up that alcohol sales are a reason to distrust medical experts is ridiculous. I have already answered why they are open and the fact that doctors are already recommending against them. You also are making the bad faith argument that doctors are trying to regulate individual industries that are governed by the states, and if they don't argue against it then they are bad sources. The states decide what remains open or closed, for better or worse. Doctors are trying to recommend things like wearing masks, limiting going to the store (which, GASP, includes liquor stores!), social distancing, and not killing each other.

  6. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by CinnaMunMun View Post
    Because I look at the data and the opinions of the experts. Common sentiment may be trending up as hospitals are cancelling elective procedures and managing to have enough beds and ventilators, but that just means the worst-case scenario didn't hit like Italy where people were dying in hallways. We are still trending towards more deaths and cases each day.

    There is nothing wrong with being optimistic that we can recover potentially in a couple of months with the right testing and system. There is something wrong with wanting to open now and thinking we have a handle on it. There is something VERY wrong with saying this was overblown when obviously the measures taken have helped.
    But see I don't feel you are looking at "the data and opinions of experts". You are still still pushing this ventilator and bed issue of 30 days ago.

    Do you not realize that in addition to the treatment options patients have now been given, our ventilator stock is now far different than it was 30 days ago and is is getting better each day? That our medicines that are having an effect are more available as the realization of treatments and the amount that is being produced worldwide has also increased dramatically?
    Our plan for a bed shortage- if one were to ever happen- is much stronger now as well. Event centers have been shown a plan and even implemented in some cases. Those two concerns you bring up are far different than they were weeks ago.

    I still fear the virus effecting my loved ones, and that will never change. What has changed is my fear for the worst.

  7. #712
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    Since when were we not supposed to kill each other? I wish I was made aware of this sooner.

  8. #713
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rastic View Post
    Is there flu comparison totally wrong? I really don't know. I think this is trending toward worse but statistically is isn't that far off - and I don't mean to sound callous if that's how it comes across.

    The 2018-2019 flu season in the US estimated deaths are at about 34,000 with over 130 of those children. Hospitalizations were about half a million. The 2017-2018 season had 61,000 deaths. 2016-2017, 38,000 deaths. 2015-2016, 23,000 deaths. 2014-2015, 51,000 deaths. Source CDC.

    This far US covid19 deaths are as of now over 35,000 with three pediatric deaths, sadly with underlying conditions.

    It seems the flu comparison is valid up to a point with the exception of children being less vulnerable and covid possibly being more contagious. Perhaps as well those who get sicker may be even worse.
    Yes at the moment. Those are annual numbers compared to 4 months of Covid-19 data. Fatality and infection rates of Covid are showing to be worse than the average flu, which is the closest we have to compare at this time. 86% of fatalities are with people with "underlying health issues" but that broad classification also includes diabetes and high blood pressure (which 1/3 Americans have).

    If the number of deaths remained the same (which at the moment they are trending for the worse) it would take 13 days to hit the 61,000 death total.

    I should also point out, I'm not advocating panic here. I am advocating trusting medical experts to guide safely opening in a smart, organized manner when the time is right. It is when the virus is downplayed as nothing more than a hoax/scare tactic/overblown flu that it grinds my gears.

  9. #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by atwaterandstir View Post
    But see I don't feel you are looking at "the data and opinions of experts". You are still still pushing this ventilator and bed issue of 30 days ago.

    Do you not realize that in addition to the treatment options patients have now been given, our ventilator stock is now far different than it was 30 days ago and is is getting better each day? That our medicines that are having an effect are more available as the realization of treatments and the amount that is being produced worldwide has also increased dramatically?
    Our plan for a bed shortage- if one were to ever happen- is much stronger now as well. Event centers have been shown a plan and even implemented in some cases. Those two concerns you bring up are far different than they were weeks ago.

    I still fear the virus effecting my loved ones, and that will never change. What has changed is my fear for the worst.
    You aren't wrong we are better equipped, but that is for avoiding the worst possible issue of the 30 days ago like you said. Death rates are still climbing despite having beds, ventilators, and sedatives (for the ventilators) available.

    I think in my anger of my original post I gave the wrong impression. We are in a better place for certain in terms of preparedness, what I'm arguing is that it isn't enough YET. The numbers will go down, and once testing is available for everyone (without charge or else poorer sick people will just avoid testing) then the plan will work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
    Since when were we not supposed to kill each other? I wish I was made aware of this sooner.
    Sadly some people never got the memo, even before the pandemic

  10. #715
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    Quote Originally Posted by CinnaMunMun View Post
    Yes at the moment. Those are annual numbers compared to 4 months of Covid-19 data. Fatality and infection rates of Covid are showing to be worse than the average flu, which is the closest we have to compare at this time. 86% of fatalities are with people with "underlying health issues" but that broad classification also includes diabetes and high blood pressure (which 1/3 Americans have).

    If the number of deaths remained the same (which at the moment they are trending for the worse) it would take 13 days to hit the 61,000 death total.

    I should also point out, I'm not advocating panic here. I am advocating trusting medical experts to guide safely opening in a smart, organized manner when the time is right. It is when the virus is downplayed as nothing more than a hoax/scare tactic/overblown flu that it grinds my gears.
    I here you.

    This is not the flu. But it seems like a standard comparison.

    And if so, given the mortality so far in The US alone, and given the extraordinary effort to manage the spread, the numbers are awful, because had we let it "run its course", and kept doing our thing, I would expect the rates to be staggering.

    But if folks feel like a flu is comparable, because it feels the same in some ways, or whatever, let 'er be.

    And if it's a flu, it's a flu I hope I never catch, or my immune system better be jacked up for it.

    As I posted before.... you judge a society by how it treats its weakest. While we wisely move the economic wheels forward, and the time might make more sense in some locales very shortly, lets hope this is part of the equation. One death is too many, especially if you know that person. Put a face to it.

  11. #716
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    Quote Originally Posted by CinnaMunMun View Post
    There was no cherry picking, there is a thing called fact checking and knowing what someone specializes in. Dr. Oz and Dr. Pepper both have the word doctor in front of them, but I wouldn't trust them as much as Dr. Fauci or another immunologist or epidemiologist.

    Setting up that alcohol sales are a reason to distrust medical experts is ridiculous. I have already answered why they are open and the fact that doctors are already recommending against them. You also are making the bad faith argument that doctors are trying to regulate individual industries that are governed by the states, and if they don't argue against it then they are bad sources. The states decide what remains open or closed, for better or worse. Doctors are trying to recommend things like wearing masks, limiting going to the store (which, GASP, includes liquor stores!), social distancing, and not killing each other.
    I agree about your point of doctors but even Fauci has made some head scratching decisions. While advocating the 6' social distancing model which is more than reasonable, he essentially said Tinder hook-ups are ok so long as you know there is inherent risk. I was like, seriously? You've got to be kidding me. That undermines the necessity of social distancing and stay at home orders. If it must be then it must always be. That's what the inconsistencies are confusing and frustrating to people. Maybe those inconsistent measurers make belief i what some might describe as far fetched or a hoax more believable... I dunno

    Hopefully soon we'll all be able to look back and remember this time as a thing of the past.

  12. #717
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    Quote Originally Posted by CinnaMunMun View Post
    There was no cherry picking, there is a thing called fact checking and knowing what someone specializes in. Dr. Oz and Dr. Pepper both have the word doctor in front of them, but I wouldn't trust them as much as Dr. Fauci or another immunologist or epidemiologist.

    Setting up that alcohol sales are a reason to distrust medical experts is ridiculous. I have already answered why they are open and the fact that doctors are already recommending against them. You also are making the bad faith argument that doctors are trying to regulate individual industries that are governed by the states, and if they don't argue against it then they are bad sources. The states decide what remains open or closed, for better or worse. Doctors are trying to recommend things like wearing masks, limiting going to the store (which, GASP, includes liquor stores!), social distancing, and not killing each other.
    First, I believe everyone posting in this thread is making a good faith argument on their position. Having a different take isn’t bad faith.

    Second, your user name is making me hungry for a cinnamon roll. I digress.

    When I see the pearl clutching and gnashing of teeth about keeping everyone safe, it doesn’t pass muster because of the selective measures. Public officials in many states kept liquor stores open. They said they’ve listened to the “experts” and “science”.

    When you keep the doors open with businesses like liquor stores while shuttering others, it’s hypocritical.
    You’re talking east and walking west. Telling people to limit their trips to the stores doesn’t stop them from going more often. Saying liquor stores should remain open (New Jersey) while arresting a small group of worshipers at a Synagogue is a problem. Is a group of 12 people in a store a gathering? Oh, it’s fine because they are “social distancing”. Can people not follow the same guidelines in a place of worship?

  13. #718
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    Proud of Utah Gov Gary Herbert today.
    Some restrictions to State Parks will be lifted immediately. Economical plan to reopen some businesses by May 1.

  14. #719
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    Quote Originally Posted by atwaterandstir View Post
    Proud of Utah Gov Gary Herbert today.
    Some restrictions to State Parks will be lifted immediately. Economical plan to reopen some businesses by May 1.
    Proud of Governor Jim Justice of West Virginia. They re-opened all rest areas and are providing food to all truck drivers.

  15. #720
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    First, I believe everyone posting in this thread is making a good faith argument on their position. Having a different take isn’t bad faith.

    Second, your user name is making me hungry for a cinnamon roll. I digress.

    When I see the pearl clutching and gnashing of teeth about keeping everyone safe, it doesn’t pass muster because of the selective measures. Public officials in many states kept liquor stores open. They said they’ve listened to the “experts” and “science”.

    When you keep the doors open with businesses like liquor stores while shuttering others, it’s hypocritical.
    You’re talking east and walking west. Telling people to limit their trips to the stores doesn’t stop them from going more often. Saying liquor stores should remain open (New Jersey) while arresting a small group of worshipers at a Synagogue is a problem. Is a group of 12 people in a store a gathering? Oh, it’s fine because they are “social distancing”. Can people not follow the same guidelines in a place of worship?
    America has a well-documented history of losing its cool when alcohol is taken away. The demand for alcohol will not decrease because the stores are closed. This opens up opportunity for illegal distilling, sales, and an increase in overall crime. There are also serious safety concerns of unregulated alcohol being mass distributed. I don't think current legislators want that madness on their hands.

    Also, there are nearly 15 million people in the US that suffer from Alcohol Use Disorder. These are people that could possibly flood the healthcare system with withdrawal from lack of access.

    Overall, I think closing liquor stores would create more problems than it would prevent.

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