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Thread: Corona virus

  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Without being too callous here, you're an adult, you can make the decision on whether you feel it's safe to go out or not. Once restrictions are lifted it doesn't mean that every single person has to go out and be in public, surrounded by hordes of people. It just give people that option.

    If you and your wife decide that you don't believe it's safe, that's okay, you can continue to quarantine.

    We may never beat this virus. We've never beaten the flu. Sure there are vaccines, but they guess the strains each year, and it's always a possibility that they could guess wrong. We've never beaten the common cold. If we wait to beat it then we may never get restrictions lifted.
    I would argue that this is still different than almost anything you mention, and we are not there yet as to a really good, fair solution. And not to worry about the callous comment....I would argue that many adults are not capable of making smart decisions when it comes to doing the right thing, with lots of evidence during this pandemic alone. Those are the folks to worry about. They will spread, and they will travel and spread some more.

    Anyway....some of us see it different. In the end I would be happy if you were more right than I on this topic. We have a ways to go.

  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanDB View Post
    I'll ask you then...what's older people? What conditions....high blood pressure? High cholesterol? Not to mention all the lung related health issues.

    And are older folks like me supposed to be careful while others are free to feel less restricted? Truth is, a lot of people I know are in better shape than a lot of younger folks.

    I would argue that we beat this as a community, not as younger vs older, vs folks with conditions. Too many people abused the process. Can we trust these folks to be wise going forward, given they could pass it on to others? And what do you propose, people that are vulnerable wear a badge to identify them as risk. Just kidding...I think.

    The age thing and if I had anything else to consider from a health perspective are mine to manage. But I see this as a group effort to beat this virus. Until we get the numbers down, there should be no rush to risk things. Slow is the way to go, until it makes more sense.
    I posted the CDC guidelines to address those questions. Those donít speak for your country - Iím sure there are guidelines from your public health officials.

    Itís not about younger vs. older. Being a community doesnít mean completely disregarding logic. In the United States the death rates stratified by age are significantly lower in the younger population. Younger people can return to work - that doesnít mean they would walk into a nursing home unchecked after their day at work.

    Too many people abused the process? Stop and think about what you say from one post to the next. Youíve said the reason the infections/deaths havenít been as severe was a result of people being obedient and following the rules. It was the lockdown measures that worked.

    Now, how did those measure work with so many people abusing the process? Think about the contradiction. Peoples lives were saved by following the rules, but too many people abused the rules?

    Going slow is destroying millions of jobs. Thousand upon thousands of people are in lines at food banks in cities across the United States. Weíre on the brink of a depression with unemployment rising rapidly. There are severe consequences for not acting now to begin getting back to work. It can be done safely while focusing on protecting the most vulnerable.

    Speaking of science and facts, what evidence is there to backup going slow? What does that even mean?

    Today new guidelines were released to set the stage for opening the country. Three phases with measures in place to allow for each state/locality to make decisions on how they can move forward. Those guidelines are based on the recommendations of medical health officials.

    Just saying, ďKeep everyone locked down for as long as necessaryĒ is not a plan. Itís not based on science or facts to take that approach.
    Last edited by Fantaztic7; 04-16-2020 at 09:04 PM.

  3. #663
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieMac View Post
    I missed the part where he is required to justify his post...because you donít seem to agree...

    You said in a previous post



    No one asked you to justify that with a solid source...
    He said....we donít know for sure what the mortality rate is here because there are a lot of deaths that are being categorized as Covid but shouldnít be. For me that's questionable, and given the sensitivity of this time and topic, evidence would be helpful. Just like when people present conspiracy theories or other messages that may not seem valid. So you ask for a source. Not a big deal to ask. But you intervened and told me I could google it myself. That's interesting. Not how it normally works.

    By the way, he did not have to provide me with anything. Sure, people can ask me for sources if they want. If it makes sense, I will provide. If it's little stuff, and by that I mean, not nearly as important as is this topic, I may not. Depending how it is asked. I doubt I would tell anyone to google it themselves, but you never know, do ya?

    As for AW4M, I appreciate interacting with him....and will continue to do so.

    On that note...sorry AW if I caused you concern.


  4. #664
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rastic View Post
    ^^ and lock down was to prevent overwhelming hospitals not prevent any illness. Some areas where transmission rates are high and hospitals are at or near capacity with corona virus patients could remain under stricter health restrictions, those not could ease restrictions with high risk groups able to remain in self isolation. Add more randomized testing.
    There are very few areas remaining with hospitals anywhere close to being overwhelmed. Even New York is shipping out thousands of ventilators to three states. Their hospital admissions have dropped significantly.

    In areas where we begin opening things we can monitor and watch for signs of anything bad. If you start to get an uptick in cases you can re-assess. We can position testing to assess people going back to work. Let older people with underlying conditions make an informed decision with guidance from their physician. Put testing in place to insure no one infected walks into a nursing home.

  5. #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    I posted the CDC guidelines to address those questions. Those donít speak for your country - Iím sure there are guidelines from your public health officials.

    Itís not about younger vs. older. Being a community doesnít mean completely disregarding logic. In the United States the death rates stratified by age are significantly lower in the younger population. Younger people can return to work - that doesnít mean they would walk into a nursing home unchecked after their day at work.

    Too many people abused the process? Stop and think about what you say from one post to the next. Youíve said the reason the infections/deaths havenít been as severe was a result of people being obedient and following the rules. It was the lockdown measures that worked.

    Now, how did those measure work with so many people abusing the process? Think about the contradiction. Peoples lives were saved by following the rules, but too many people abused the rules?

    Going slow is destroying millions of jobs. Thousand upon thousands of people are in lines at food banks in cities across the United States. Weíre on the brink of a depression with unemployment rising rapidly. There are severe consequences for not acting now to begin getting back to work. It can be done safely while focusing on protecting the most vulnerable.

    Speaking of science and facts, what evidence is there to backup going slow? What does that even mean?

    Today new guidelines were released to set the stage for opening the country. Three phases with measures in place to allow for each state/locality to make decisions on how they can move forward. Those guidelines are based on the medical health officials recommendations.

    Just saying, ďKeep everyone locked down for as long as necessaryĒ is not a plan. Itís not based on science or facts to take that approach.
    I did thank you for the guidelines, but that was between posts. I missed it the first time.

    First, yes too many people abused the rules. People still not understanding social distancing. And that is not a contradiction, had the efforts started sooner and everyone followed the rules, I am sure we would not be talking about the size of this problem. BUT, because many did, the numbers were more manageable. Not every adult followed the rules, and that was a concern. But luckily, many did.

    Going slow is not the plan. The plan I would recommend is what many of your people (not getting political) are stating. it may seem slow to some, but it makes sense. Monitoring the relevant stats, and then, with the economic experts, plan recovery based on medical and area activity. But keep your foot close to the brake, that's all. Set guidelines that incorporate the best of both, with the key being how the virus medical stats react. As the numbers stay in control, you up the recovery. If key virus stats go backwards, you must be prepared to step back as well.

    I am aware of the guidelines put out today in your country. I have some questions, but will await the next couple of days to see if they are answered. Nothing big, rather how do folks interact when in different phases. Can they travel from one to another. That sort of thing. It will be interesting how the various entities work together on all of this.

    And locking down everyone without a plan was never my stance. There was a need for science and medical expertise to help decide, along with economic leaders who could work together with them, in tandem.

  6. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanDB View Post
    I would argue that this is still different than almost anything you mention, and we are not there yet as to a really good, fair solution. And not to worry about the callous comment....I would argue that many adults are not capable of making smart decisions when it comes to doing the right thing, with lots of evidence during this pandemic alone. Those are the folks to worry about. They will spread, and they will travel and spread some more.

    Anyway....some of us see it different. In the end I would be happy if you were more right than I on this topic. We have a ways to go.
    And I would argue that this is another in the long list of pandemics we've faced over the years. Without knowing exactly your age, it's likely you lived through the Asian Flu pandemic of 57-58 (my apologies if you weren't born yet) which had around 2 million deaths. The Hong Kong flu of 68-69 which had 1 million deaths. The SARS outbreak of 2002-04, which thankfully only saw 774 die. The H1N1 outbreak of 2009 which killed an estimated 284,000 world-wide.

    Somehow we (society) managed to get through all of those without completely shutting things down and without everyone dying. But this is the first pandemic during the Social Media age where false information is started and that spreads like it's 100% the truth.

    I would also argue that if you're that worried about people flying and spreading viruses, you should be more worried about the flu. Because people fly and transmit that all the time. And we have outbreaks of it every single winter, so much so that we've actually named it "flu season" that can also kill people with underlying conditions. So why don't we continue to shutdown society until we have a permanent vaccine for that?

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
    I may have not communicated clearly, Iím sorry. I am not suggesting the majority of deaths classified as due to covid are false, but there have been doctors who have come out and said they are being told that if for example someone dies due to complications with cancer and thereís a possibility they were explosed to covid they are suppose to classify it as due to covid and not cancer, for example.
    My point is, if there are 10 cases out of 200 that were deaths related to cancer, etc but were classified as covid then that is a lot, in my opinion. Iím not trying to diminish the seriousness of it.
    We also donít know how many people have actually had it and not gotten tested. Itís probably at least 4 times the actual number. So although all deaths from it are tragic I donít believe the actual mortality rate is anywhere near 3%.
    Thx for that!

    Sorry if I seem pushy, but I think you might understand, this is a very important subject to us all, and your point is quite relevant.

    But I can understand why some reporting would be inaccurate, because of the extreme caseload of the medical folks. And I would suggest that, even if a little too high, the mortality rates are still significant. I certainly do not think that the numbers would be high for any real purpose other than overwork and no time.

    Thx pal!


  8. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanDB View Post
    I did thank you for the guidelines, but that was between posts. I missed it the first time.

    First, yes too many people abused the rules. People still not understanding social distancing. And that is not a contradiction, had the efforts started sooner and everyone followed the rules, I am sure we would not be talking about the size of this problem. BUT, because many did, the numbers were more manageable. Not every adult followed the rules, and that was a concern. But luckily, many did.

    Going slow is not the plan. The plan I would recommend is what many of your people (not getting political) are stating. it may seem slow to some, but it makes sense. Monitoring the relevant stats, and then, with the economic experts, plan recovery based on medical and area activity. But keep your foot close to the brake, that's all. Set guidelines that incorporate the best of both, with the key being how the virus medical stats react. As the numbers stay in control, you up the recovery. If key virus stats go backwards, you must be prepared to step back as well.

    I am aware of the guidelines put out today in your country. I have some questions, but will await the next couple of days to see if they are answered. Nothing big, rather how do folks interact when in different phases. Can they travel from one to another. That sort of thing. It will be interesting how the various entities work together on all of this.

    And locking down everyone without a plan was never my stance. There was a need for science and medical expertise to help decide, along with economic leaders who could work together with them, in tandem.
    Without saying whether they were right or wrong to shut everything, I don't think they get a second chance at it. Once restrictions are lifted I don't think people will accept them being put back on lockdown. I could be wrong about that, but I think they only have/had one shot at this.

    It will be truly fascinating in a few years, once we see the final outcome of everything on whether the experts got it right or not? Although I suspect it'll take a decade or more before we get truly honest assessments on it. I think in the next 5-10 years if they got it right and saved millions of lives they'll be vilified for the economic impact. And if they got it wrong and they should have kept things open, they'll be vilified for the economic impact.

  9. #669
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    Well everyone, itís time to get some rest. Thanks for all the discussion and everyone keeping within the guardrails. If I didnít respond to a post it wasnít intentional just getting tired.

    Cheers 🍻

  10. #670
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    And I would argue that this is another in the long list of pandemics we've faced over the years. Without knowing exactly your age, it's likely you lived through the Asian Flu pandemic of 57-58 (my apologies if you weren't born yet) which had around 2 million deaths. The Hong Kong flu of 68-69 which had 1 million deaths. The SARS outbreak of 2002-04, which thankfully only saw 774 die. The H1N1 outbreak of 2009 which killed an estimated 284,000 world-wide.

    Somehow we (society) managed to get through all of those without completely shutting things down and without everyone dying. But this is the first pandemic during the Social Media age where false information is started and that spreads like it's 100% the truth.

    I would also argue that if you're that worried about people flying and spreading viruses, you should be more worried about the flu. Because people fly and transmit that all the time. And we have outbreaks of it every single winter, so much so that we've actually named it "flu season" that can also kill people with underlying conditions. So why don't we continue to shutdown society until we have a permanent vaccine for that?
    I agree with lots of what you just stated. I still don't believe this is comparable to much of anything we've seen, although some outbreaks in our lifetime have been serious, but fortunately, not as global. For example, SARS was bad, but very limited. If you recall, it was more a Toronto thing here in Canada.

    Yes, the flu is a killer, but time will tell if I am correct, until a new strain comes along within the lives we've led, none have matched this virus. It's not just the mortality rate, but the unknowns to this day. This virus may mutate, come back, do something unthinkable, and if we let it fester, we could go backwards. That would severely darken our attitudes.

    As for the economics of all of this....it is terrible! But think back when we got the news overseas, and then people started coming home, and then people were on ventilators, and the deaths were not at all easy to hear about. And we did not know much about this deadly, invisible enemy. At that time we were left with hard choices, and for the most part, we ended up doing the same things....trying to control the spread. It was a daunting task for a world that does not play by those rules.

    I will say this, I hope we did overreact a little, because that means it is not nearly as bad as we thought. But just like the 2008 recession when the financial world was on the brink, so to were we, in my opinion, regarding this pandemic. You may not agree, but if we got the spread rate of infection wrong, and I am not talking by a much per person, this would have been extremely bad (though I still think it is). Say we did not do the responsible thing and it spread to more folks, quickly, our hospitals and medical folks would never have kept up. Not a chance. So in that regard, I lean to the medical experts first. Had we been less concerned a while back, we would not be having the same conversation as we speak. And no doubt in my mind, there were probably a lot of folks (I don't mean you) who would have preferred we did not even go into social distancing mode, or stay home stance, when we needed to. I am very relieved that we listened and we obeyed.

    As for the social media, I would suggest it goes many ways. I say, find good sources and judge based on the best facts you can find...not some online noise makers. Not easy in this era, but at least give it a go.

    It's late, I've asked you folks a lot of questions, and I appreciate the effort you have put forth in responding. I think we al have valid concerns. And in the end, I think we all want health and economics to improve, as quickly as is possible.

  11. #671
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    One more thing....I really believe that if people are even a bit open minded, even though they disagree, they wake up the next day and sometimes have a slightly broader view on such topics. I have my opinions, but believe me, if I read something or even think back about comments made, and they make more sense (which they sometimes do after reflection) I move in that direction. Important topics require that we be as objective as we can.

    So thanks to anyone who tries to broaden the perspective. And sorry again for all the questions.

    Nite!

  12. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
    What would you suggest if I may ask?
    I have no idea. That's why I was asking Butler. Trying to get opinions on what other alternatives we have.

    I was on lock down 2-3 weeks before it became official in MD. If the restrictions were lifted right now, I would still chose to continue to isolate / social distance. I feel safer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    In New York a high percentage of deaths were elderly people in nursing homes/assisted living facilities. One solution would be to insure testing of every worker and resident in the facility. Employees could be tested daily with rapid tests before entering the facility. Any employee with a positive test would obviously be quarantined and not allowed to return to the nursing home for two weeks/two negative tests. Continue restricting/limiting family visits. Visits would require precautions with masks, strict hygiene and distancing.

    Outside of nursing homes, let older people and/or those with underlying health conditions make decisions to continue self-quarantine and/or use more precautions with masks, gloves, etc. Put people back to work by delivering the things they need at home, or even pay younger people to interact via Zoom with older people staying at home. Let people at lower risk get back to work.

    Right now we’re actually not using the data to make decisions - we’re locking down entire populations when it’s not necessary.
    That works but what if hubby unknowingly (even with him taking precautions) brings it home to me? I don't think there's an easy solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    I would do heavy testing on the most vulnerable, particularly in retirement communities/assisted living facilities. It makes way more sense, and would save more lives testing there and protecting than testing people who are relatively healthy but have a slight fever etc. The majority of those tests come back negative (something like 2 out of every 100 tests given are actually positive).

    Lots of the current rules in place make sense and should continue to be used: washing hands often. No handshakes. Giving people distance. If you're sick, stay home. But we can do all of that while easing restrictions.

    To me Sweden and the Netherlands are positive cases, because their infection rates are no worse than anywhere else with restrictions. Their death rates are higher than North America but not any higher than other European countries. We certainly need more information on why Europe as a whole is having worse outcomes from he virus? But that comes down to treatment not prevention.
    I understand the hardships the lock downs are having on people who have lost their jobs. It helps people like myself that have compromised immune systems. There is no easy answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    About an hour ago I read a story on CNN about how they've been testing a new drug on people in hospital with severe respiratory symptoms and fever and its led to them leaving the hospital within a few days. The drug was originally created for Ebola, did nothing against it, but is now possibly useful here.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/16/healt...ial/index.html
    Johns Hopkins and U of MD (I think) are also conducting studies on remdesivir.
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  13. #673
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    Random thought of the early AM before heading to work: Huge crowds protesting against coronavirus lockdowns at state capitols.

    Protesting the lockdown while wearing masks to protect them from the virus? Makes sense. Oh, and don't forget those heavy duty assault rifles. That's quite essential during a viral pandemic.

    Can't wait to see this happening at my state capitol on the 24th as our governer just extended our stay at home order through May 26. The fact that a facebook group called Wisconsinites Against Excessive Quarantine has 66,000+ followers in less than a day is honestly scary. Their posts and comments are even more scary. Stop being dumb. Think of others and stay home.

  14. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peanut View Post
    I have no idea. That's why I was asking Butler. Trying to get opinions on what other alternatives we have.

    I was on lock down 2-3 weeks before it became official in MD. If the restrictions were lifted right now, I would still chose to continue to isolate / social distance. I feel safer.



    That works but what if hubby unknowingly (even with him taking precautions) brings it home to me? I don't think there's an easy solution.



    I understand the hardships the lock downs are having on people who have lost their jobs. It helps people like myself that have compromised immune systems. There is no easy answer.



    Johns Hopkins and U of MD (I think) are also conducting studies on remdesivir.
    I donít have the answers either but a gradual rollback starting at the beginning of May some states are adopting seems to be a reasonable solution. Imo leaving everyone in lockdown until thereís a vaccine wonít work.

  15. #675
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerless View Post
    Random thought of the early AM before heading to work: Huge crowds protesting against coronavirus lockdowns at state capitols.

    Protesting the lockdown while wearing masks to protect them from the virus? Makes sense. Oh, and don't forget those heavy duty assault rifles. That's quite essential during a viral pandemic.

    Can't wait to see this happening at my state capitol on the 24th as our governer just extended our stay at home order through May 26. The fact that a facebook group called Wisconsinites Against Excessive Quarantine has 66,000+ followers in less than a day is honestly scary. Their posts and comments are even more scary. Stop being dumb. Think of others and stay home.
    I think the people in Minnesota have a right to be upset. Theyíre not just protesting the lockdown but the fact theyíre being told what they can and canít buy, such as gardening items. Idaho is doing a great job and is probably more heavily armed then any state out there but the levels of frustration are not the same because when we go to Walmart they donít have entire sections roped off. Weíre not being told we cant be in our front yards...

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