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  1. #136
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    Elway also generally likes to draft replacements a year or two in advance. With Bolles contract coming to an end, I would expect LT to be addressed fairly early in the draft, if we don’t then I think that signals that he might be resigned. But any of the top 4 OTs as well as Kinlaw would be in play at 15. A good number of his drafts have valued consistent production over a longer period of time as well as high character so Kinlaw (not speaking on his character) may take a hit there.

    WR and CB seem to be glaring holes but there are young prospects at both positions and there are quality WRs littered throughout this draft, James Proche and Tyler Johnson may be very high on the Broncos big board. If we do go with Ruggs I think that signals an all in approach similar to when we started drafting guys like Ray and Roby which can be great when you hit, but it can also lead you to the basement very fast when you don’t.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa-pwn View Post
    There's nothing strange about drawing connections between the best receivers and a team with arguably one of the worst WR rooms in the league. We have Sutton and that is it. We need another starting WR, and in Shurmur's offense, 3 WRs typically start the game so we need a starting slot guy too.

    The team did not keep the guys home to "stop leaks", they simply thought they could be more productive at the office.
    That was part of it, the other part was reportedly to keep the flow of information for leaking out.

  3. #138
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    Our needs remain largely the same after free agency. Harris left, we replaced him with Bouye, a downgrade. Wolfe left, we replaced him with Casey, a short-term upgrade. Leary and McGovern left, we replaced them with Glasgow, long-term slight upgrade. I still see every single area that was a weakness last season remaining a weakness. We have 3 huge question marks along the offensive line, center, and both tackle positions could be addressed. We have question marks up the whole middle of the defense, defensive line and linebacker are still weaknesses. Our cornerback room is not deep at all, we really need help there, and losing Parks is losing a lot of key rotational snaps too.

    Elway as he does has slapped some band-aids on areas where players left to stop the team getting weaker, and maybe found some guys who better fit the new coaching staff, but we still remain a thin roster with poor depth. A lot is going to ride on how Drew Lock plays, but we need to get him help up front, a new center and left tackle in the first 2 rounds is my hope, then shift to the defense and add a pair of cornerbacks, and a big bodied defensive tackle. Adding a wide reciever still makes little sense to me when you consider our overall roster position, when we took a luxury pick in a pass catcher last year.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Our needs remain largely the same after free agency. Harris left, we replaced him with Bouye, a downgrade. Wolfe left, we replaced him with Casey, a short-term upgrade. Leary and McGovern left, we replaced them with Glasgow, long-term slight upgrade. I still see every single area that was a weakness last season remaining a weakness. We have 3 huge question marks along the offensive line, center, and both tackle positions could be addressed. We have question marks up the whole middle of the defense, defensive line and linebacker are still weaknesses. Our cornerback room is not deep at all, we really need help there, and losing Parks is losing a lot of key rotational snaps too.

    Elway as he does has slapped some band-aids on areas where players left to stop the team getting weaker, and maybe found some guys who better fit the new coaching staff, but we still remain a thin roster with poor depth. A lot is going to ride on how Drew Lock plays, but we need to get him help up front, a new center and left tackle in the first 2 rounds is my hope, then shift to the defense and add a pair of cornerbacks, and a big bodied defensive tackle. Adding a wide reciever still makes little sense to me when you consider our overall roster position, when we took a luxury pick in a pass catcher last year.
    I don't think bouye is a downgrade to Harris

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyousukeneko View Post
    I don't think bouye is a downgrade to Harris
    Of course you don't, AJ is a Broncos now. But seriously, as much as I wanted Harris gone and am happy he is, Bouye is not coming off a good season, or a couple good seasons. He allowed over 70 catches, 1000 yards, and 4 touchdowns in 14 games last year, quarterbacks had over 118 quarterback rating when targeting him, that isn't good. When you look at the same statistics from 2018, it isn't much better.

    Look, initially I was pleased with the move based on what I remember the reputation being a couple of years ago when Bouye played on that stacked defense in Jacksonville, but that is a distant memory. I guess you could compare him to Roby. A guy who on that ultra talented squad looked really good, but when things weren't so stacked, was kind of exposed as just a guy. Sometimes I wonder if Elway watches tape on the players he brings in, because Jags fans were over the moon dumping his salary and getting a 4th round pick.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Our needs remain largely the same after free agency. Harris left, we replaced him with Bouye, a downgrade. Wolfe left, we replaced him with Casey, a short-term upgrade. Leary and McGovern left, we replaced them with Glasgow, long-term slight upgrade. I still see every single area that was a weakness last season remaining a weakness. We have 3 huge question marks along the offensive line, center, and both tackle positions could be addressed. We have question marks up the whole middle of the defense, defensive line and linebacker are still weaknesses. Our cornerback room is not deep at all, we really need help there, and losing Parks is losing a lot of key rotational snaps too.

    Elway as he does has slapped some band-aids on areas where players left to stop the team getting weaker, and maybe found some guys who better fit the new coaching staff, but we still remain a thin roster with poor depth. A lot is going to ride on how Drew Lock plays, but we need to get him help up front, a new center and left tackle in the first 2 rounds is my hope, then shift to the defense and add a pair of cornerbacks, and a big bodied defensive tackle. Adding a wide reciever still makes little sense to me when you consider our overall roster position, when we took a luxury pick in a pass catcher last year.
    I think you’re downplaying our offseason moves quite a bit. Bouye is an upgrade from CHJ in terms of his fit in Fangio’s defense as an outside CB. Casey is a Pro Bowler who has at least 3-4 strong years left. Glasgow is a durable, solid player who can hold down either the RG or C position. I am not high on Bolles at all, but realistically, I think Elway/Munchak lets him play out 2020 on his last year of his rookie deal before deciding what to do at LT. James is one of the highest-paid RTs, he will get his chance to prove himself next season. Wilkinson was brought back so he will be the backup OT (and swing tackle).

    I don’t think defensive line is a weakness at all. I could see us bringing a NT as competition for Purcell, but even he was PFF’s #1 run defender. I agree that we need to bring in another cornerback, especially a starter type opposite of Bouye since the nickel spot is Callahan’s. I don’t think our LB position is in terrible shape. Davis has been our most productive tackler for the past few seasons, but drafting an athletic LB (Davis-Gaither, Dye) or a box safety (Wallace, Brooks Jr.) would help bolster the middle of our defense.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Of course you don't, AJ is a Broncos now. But seriously, as much as I wanted Harris gone and am happy he is, Bouye is not coming off a good season, or a couple good seasons. He allowed over 70 catches, 1000 yards, and 4 touchdowns in 14 games last year, quarterbacks had over 118 quarterback rating when targeting him, that isn't good. When you look at the same statistics from 2018, it isn't much better.

    Look, initially I was pleased with the move based on what I remember the reputation being a couple of years ago when Bouye played on that stacked defense in Jacksonville, but that is a distant memory. I guess you could compare him to Roby. A guy who on that ultra talented squad looked really good, but when things weren't so stacked, was kind of exposed as just a guy. Sometimes I wonder if Elway watches tape on the players he brings in, because Jags fans were over the moon dumping his salary and getting a 4th round pick.
    I just think harris speed is going and so is his time as a cb. Bouye has more in the tank.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDbroncos02 View Post
    I think you’re downplaying our offseason moves quite a bit. Bouye is an upgrade from CHJ in terms of his fit in Fangio’s defense as an outside CB. Casey is a Pro Bowler who has at least 3-4 strong years left. Glasgow is a durable, solid player who can hold down either the RG or C position. I am not high on Bolles at all, but realistically, I think Elway/Munchak lets him play out 2020 on his last year of his rookie deal before deciding what to do at LT. James is one of the highest-paid RTs, he will get his chance to prove himself next season. Wilkinson was brought back so he will be the backup OT (and swing tackle).

    I don’t think defensive line is a weakness at all. I could see us bringing a NT as competition for Purcell, but even he was PFF’s #1 run defender. I agree that we need to bring in another cornerback, especially a starter type opposite of Bouye since the nickel spot is Callahan’s. I don’t think our LB position is in terrible shape. Davis has been our most productive tackler for the past few seasons, but drafting an athletic LB (Davis-Gaither, Dye) or a box safety (Wallace, Brooks Jr.) would help bolster the middle of our defense.
    Saying someone is an upgrade due solely to fit, when they have shown to be coming off 2 bad seasons of play is blind hope and not fair to say. I would guess Bouye is a better fit, but that doesn't mean he is an upgrade, or that he has been playing good football as of late. This is a fan take hoping for miracles and seeing something which ins't there, and praying it appears. Bouye is not good based on his recent play, and until he proves otherwise, he should be considered as such, a mediocre cornerback, who borders on a top 65 player at his position.

    I like the Casey move, he is an upgrade as I said, but he is a short-term upgrade, a band-aid added for the time being who probably spends 2 seasons here. Glasgow as I said was an upgrade, by how much, that will be the question for me, but I like the versatility. And I agree James is one of our tackles, but just riding it out again with Bolles will be a mistake. If we Elway and company decide to "ride it out" then decide, they are stupid. They have 3 years of bad tape on Bolles, they know what he is, he is actually quite old for a guy on his rookie deal, and he isn't getting any smarter. I would consider moving him inside, using him as a backup, or at least add competition now. It can't hurt to have young talented offensive lineman, especially with how bad that group has been for what, 5 years ?

    Pro Football Focus has some good statistics, defensive line and offensive line grading are not included in those. The way they rate guys is some what subjective, assumes a lot, and isn't backed up by the transaction report, and hasn't been for years. Guys they rate as secret superstars, or upcoming guys, or top players often find themselves cut, not signed to long-term extensions, etc. it's not a great grading tool for certain positions, and we need to get another run defender in the middle from somewhere, it's not a one man job.

    I somewhat agree on the linebacker situation, Davis is solid, nothing more, and Johnson tapered off down the back end of the season. I like what Johnson could potentially be, but he quickly got overrated around here, but he looks like a potential long-term option that could be teamed up with an athletic sideline to sideline guy in the future, maybe in this draft if the value is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyousukeneko View Post
    I just think harris speed is going and so is his time as a cb. Bouye has more in the tank.
    He is younger and coming off several worse seasons than Harris, I don't understand this justification, but okay.

  9. #144
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    The oline situation is most intriguing to me. Have no clue what they actually think about current players or positions.

    Is Glasgow the C or RG. Because a replacement is needed to fill the other spot. I’ve seen Morris or Wilkerson mentioned ? Ok prove it.

    As for OT. I have more confidence in Bolles getting slightly better then James suddenly becoming dependable. Bolles may be a headcase but at least I believe he will bust his ass to do the job.

    Do not know anything about the depth at OT to even be positive or negative.

    As I mentioned before. Sign a reliable swing back up OT. Define that G/C position. And draft a C/G as needed and an OT prospect to compete with numerous OT projects currently on the roster.

    May the best man win whether it Bolles, James, Rodgers, a draft pick or a mystery man from the end of the bench. Oline needs some work and stability.

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Of course you don't, AJ is a Broncos now. But seriously, as much as I wanted Harris gone and am happy he is, Bouye is not coming off a good season, or a couple good seasons. He allowed over 70 catches, 1000 yards, and 4 touchdowns in 14 games last year, quarterbacks had over 118 quarterback rating when targeting him, that isn't good. When you look at the same statistics from 2018, it isn't much better.

    Look, initially I was pleased with the move based on what I remember the reputation being a couple of years ago when Bouye played on that stacked defense in Jacksonville, but that is a distant memory. I guess you could compare him to Roby. A guy who on that ultra talented squad looked really good, but when things weren't so stacked, was kind of exposed as just a guy. Sometimes I wonder if Elway watches tape on the players he brings in, because Jags fans were over the moon dumping his salary and getting a 4th round pick.
    I am curious where you got stats on Bouye? From PFR last season he had a 101.5 rating against him and 60 completions for 855yds. Last season was not a good season for him, and not for the Jags defense overall. In 2018 he had a 75.3 rating against him, 42 completions, 420yds ... he was quite a bit better in 2018 than in 2019.
    Even PFF says this ... "over the course of his career, Bouye has allowed a passer rating of just 66.6 on his snaps at outside cornerback — the fourth-best mark among the 85 cornerbacks with at least 200 targets in outside coverage since 2006, one spot above Ramsey (67.7)." According to them his "coverage grade" was 79.3. Again he wasn't very good in 2019 but he had a "decent" 2018.
    I don't think Bouye is a "downgrade" from Harris but he isn't an upgrade either. They are different players but probably are = in "grade", at least Bouye is a little younger and might be in a better situation with the Broncos and has a chance to revert back to the player he was in 2018 and before.
    The good news is if he doesn't look good he has no GTD money, so the risk is low. Definitely CB is a need, I think they need to draft a CB somewhere in the first 3 rounds, imo. Maybe another one later. The Broncos do have some prospects with potential on the roster too. And there is always the pool of UDFA CBs too ... just like happened with CHJ.

  11. #146
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    also JAcksonville has been alot more disfunctional of a front office and ect then denver at least snese VJ left.

    oakland raders gm
    latavis murray trade bait

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Saying someone is an upgrade due solely to fit, when they have shown to be coming off 2 bad seasons of play is blind hope and not fair to say. I would guess Bouye is a better fit, but that doesn't mean he is an upgrade, or that he has been playing good football as of late. This is a fan take hoping for miracles and seeing something which ins't there, and praying it appears. Bouye is not good based on his recent play, and until he proves otherwise, he should be considered as such, a mediocre cornerback, who borders on a top 65 player at his position.

    I like the Casey move, he is an upgrade as I said, but he is a short-term upgrade, a band-aid added for the time being who probably spends 2 seasons here. Glasgow as I said was an upgrade, by how much, that will be the question for me, but I like the versatility. And I agree James is one of our tackles, but just riding it out again with Bolles will be a mistake. If we Elway and company decide to "ride it out" then decide, they are stupid. They have 3 years of bad tape on Bolles, they know what he is, he is actually quite old for a guy on his rookie deal, and he isn't getting any smarter. I would consider moving him inside, using him as a backup, or at least add competition now. It can't hurt to have young talented offensive lineman, especially with how bad that group has been for what, 5 years ?

    Pro Football Focus has some good statistics, defensive line and offensive line grading are not included in those. The way they rate guys is some what subjective, assumes a lot, and isn't backed up by the transaction report, and hasn't been for years. Guys they rate as secret superstars, or upcoming guys, or top players often find themselves cut, not signed to long-term extensions, etc. it's not a great grading tool for certain positions, and we need to get another run defender in the middle from somewhere, it's not a one man job.

    I somewhat agree on the linebacker situation, Davis is solid, nothing more, and Johnson tapered off down the back end of the season. I like what Johnson could potentially be, but he quickly got overrated around here, but he looks like a potential long-term option that could be teamed up with an athletic sideline to sideline guy in the future, maybe in this draft if the value is right.
    To each their own, a better fit is a better fit at the end of the day. Bouye obviously has not been playing up to his 2017 form recently, but it’s not far-fetched to project that he would do better in a better system for his skill-set and with better talent around him than he’s had in Jacksonville for the last two years. With that being said, Pro Football Reference said he gave up 60 catches for 855 yards and 3 TD on a 101.5 passer rating when targeted last year. Compare that to CHJ who gave up 49 catches for 731 yards and 4 TD on a 112.3 passer rating in 2019. Both had “down” years, but with Bouye being 3 years younger and coming into a better, healthier Denver defense in 2020– I think it’s fair to say he could be an “upgrade”.

    I completely agree with you on Bolles, man. In a perfect world, Andrew Thomas is the pick at #15 and is our starting LT for the next 15 years. But considering the fact that we have pressing needs elsewhere on the roster that must be addressed early, in addition to Bolles not playing like a total liability late last season, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that he gets a final chance. He’s still on a cheap rookie contract entering his last year. That’s huge. It gives Elway flexibility to either make a move now or in 2021. There should be plenty of talent in next year’s draft if we don’t make a move this offseason (Penei Sewell and Alex Leatherwood will be fantastic). I don’t think he has the versatility to kick inside unfortunately, but at this point if Bolles wants to have an NFL career, he has to try anything.

    Of course it is not solely Purcell’s job to stop the run. But how many defensive linemen do you think we employ in most of our run-defense looks? Watching the 2019 film, our run defense packages had 3 defensive linemen with Miller and Chubb/Reed/Hollins on the outside. For 2020, it’s looking like Miller-Casey-Purcell-Harris-Chubb for run defense. In the nickel looks that Fangio often uses, I see Miller-Casey-Harris-Chubb being used. So I don’t think we bring in a run defender unless it’s added competition for Purcell (in search of our “Eddie Goldman” for Fangio’s D) or depth for our DL behind Jones, Walker, and Heath.

  13. #148
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    My take is we'e in a similar position to the end of last year with 2 positives: Lock playing a full season barring injury, and Chubb returning. Oline Glasgow is a slight upgrade, James returns, and added some TE help, but a lot of questions here. WR same as last season. DL depth was a problem last year and still is. Casey > Wolfe, and I'm fine with the time we'll have him (during Lock's rookie pay window). LB same as last season. Secondary, CHJ wasn't great last year. I see Bouye as giving us similar production, but CB is still a weakness.

    The good news is the draft is yet to come, and we have the opportunity to improve the talent level on both lines, WR, CB and maybe LB. But I've never expected us to go from 7-9 to SB this year. It's going to take 2 offseasons to get there. In that sense, I'm at peace no matter what happens in the draft (within reason) because we really can't go wrong addressing any of the need areas, and the ones we hit on won't have to be filled next year. That said, if we do something like package up our first 4 picks to move up to get a single player, I'll definitely be scratching my head!

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDbroncos02 View Post
    To each their own, a better fit is a better fit at the end of the day. Bouye obviously has not been playing up to his 2017 form recently, but it’s not far-fetched to project that he would do better in a better system for his skill-set and with better talent around him than he’s had in Jacksonville for the last two years. With that being said, Pro Football Reference said he gave up 60 catches for 855 yards and 3 TD on a 101.5 passer rating when targeted last year. Compare that to CHJ who gave up 49 catches for 731 yards and 4 TD on a 112.3 passer rating in 2019. Both had “down” years, but with Bouye being 3 years younger and coming into a better, healthier Denver defense in 2020– I think it’s fair to say he could be an “upgrade”.

    I completely agree with you on Bolles, man. In a perfect world, Andrew Thomas is the pick at #15 and is our starting LT for the next 15 years. But considering the fact that we have pressing needs elsewhere on the roster that must be addressed early, in addition to Bolles not playing like a total liability late last season, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that he gets a final chance. He’s still on a cheap rookie contract entering his last year. That’s huge. It gives Elway flexibility to either make a move now or in 2021. There should be plenty of talent in next year’s draft if we don’t make a move this offseason (Penei Sewell and Alex Leatherwood will be fantastic). I don’t think he has the versatility to kick inside unfortunately, but at this point if Bolles wants to have an NFL career, he has to try anything.

    Of course it is not solely Purcell’s job to stop the run. But how many defensive linemen do you think we employ in most of our run-defense looks? Watching the 2019 film, our run defense packages had 3 defensive linemen with Miller and Chubb/Reed/Hollins on the outside. For 2020, it’s looking like Miller-Casey-Purcell-Harris-Chubb for run defense. In the nickel looks that Fangio often uses, I see Miller-Casey-Harris-Chubb being used. So I don’t think we bring in a run defender unless it’s added competition for Purcell (in search of our “Eddie Goldman” for Fangio’s D) or depth for our DL behind Jones, Walker, and Heath.
    Obviously I am optimistic Bouye can be better, but how did his defensive scheme change from 2017 to 2018 and then 2019 ? I would be interested to hear how he was actually used differently to warrant the fall off in play. Also, I got the statistics from https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/aj-bouye/. Regardless of which statistics are accurate, they both are not good, and it's telling Jacksonville fans were stoked to rid of him, and laughing that they got a fourth round pick in exchange for his contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyousukeneko View Post
    also JAcksonville has been alot more disfunctional of a front office and ect then denver at least snese VJ left.
    Come on, you are reaching to make excuses because NOW he is a Bronco. We are blaming his front office now for a fall off in play over the last 2 years ? Come on man. Also, how are they more dysfunctional than our front office ? They have been to the playoffs more recently than we have been ? They are 21-27 over the last 3 years, we are 18-30 ? So in the 3 years since Bouye flourished and clearly fell off, we are having a worse run as a franchise. So again, what are you on about ?

    Quote Originally Posted by brianmcfarlane View Post
    I am curious where you got stats on Bouye? From PFR last season he had a 101.5 rating against him and 60 completions for 855yds. Last season was not a good season for him, and not for the Jags defense overall. In 2018 he had a 75.3 rating against him, 42 completions, 420yds ... he was quite a bit better in 2018 than in 2019.
    Even PFF says this ... "over the course of his career, Bouye has allowed a passer rating of just 66.6 on his snaps at outside cornerback — the fourth-best mark among the 85 cornerbacks with at least 200 targets in outside coverage since 2006, one spot above Ramsey (67.7)." According to them his "coverage grade" was 79.3. Again he wasn't very good in 2019 but he had a "decent" 2018.
    I don't think Bouye is a "downgrade" from Harris but he isn't an upgrade either. They are different players but probably are = in "grade", at least Bouye is a little younger and might be in a better situation with the Broncos and has a chance to revert back to the player he was in 2018 and before.
    The good news is if he doesn't look good he has no GTD money, so the risk is low. Definitely CB is a need, I think they need to draft a CB somewhere in the first 3 rounds, imo. Maybe another one later. The Broncos do have some prospects with potential on the roster too. And there is always the pool of UDFA CBs too ... just like happened with CHJ.
    https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/aj-bouye/.

    As I said above, regardless the statistics on either source are bad, and both highlight that he has not been a good player as of late. I also find fans, fans who are usually bias in defense of their players, wanted him gone, and were happy that someone actually gave up a pick for him. It wouldn't be the first time Elway willing gave up reasonable compensation for a dud player who probably would of been cut anyway, Flacco anyone ?

    I do agree we needed a veteran cornerback, and at that rate you were not probably getting anyone better than Bouye. I just don't think adding him and losing Harris puts us in any better of a position moving into the draft, which is the point I was making in reference to this thread topic. Our needs remain largely the same, we haven't gotten much better on paper when you actually look at.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Obviously I am optimistic Bouye can be better, but how did his defensive scheme change from 2017 to 2018 and then 2019 ? I would be interested to hear how he was actually used differently to warrant the fall off in play. Also, I got the statistics from https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/aj-bouye/. Regardless of which statistics are accurate, they both are not good, and it's telling Jacksonville fans were stoked to rid of him, and laughing that they got a fourth round pick in exchange for his contract.
    They kept the same DC since 2016, so schematically-speaking I would assume he was mostly used the same. One key thing to consider here is that Jacksonville lost a lot of talent each year since their 2017 playoff run. They lost pass rushers up front like Dante Fowler Jr., Malik Jackson, and Marcell Dareus. They lost key linebackers in Telvin Smith and Paul Posluszny And they lost secondary figures like Aaron Colvin and Barry Church, in addition to them trading away elite counterpart Jalen Ramsey mid-way through last season. Roster turnover is inevitable for every team, but JAX lost some of the cornerstones on defense that made them so good. Obviously, CHJ’s play started to “decline” as most of the guys from that 2015 defense departed.

    Take it from me (as someone that currently lives in Jacksonville), that Jaguars fans are not laughing at us for giving up a 4th round pick for a ~$13M/year contract. Bouye was their best corner and still very much solid for them in the last two seasons (even with such coverage numbers per Pro Football Reference). Yes, they’re happy they could get something in return for him— in addition to getting his contract off of their books... but it’s far from a highway robbery. The Jaguars are tanking and completely gutting their roster.

    At the end of the day, we’ll see how it pans out. I appreciate this discussion and I am excited to see how Bouye pans out as our CB1. Now we just need to get that CB2 opposite of him through the draft or FA.

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